Talk:Kylie Minogue/Archive 6

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Tension critical acclaim

Tension is one of the highest ranking critically acclaimed pop albums of all time on Metacritic. This being omitted from the lead is confusing. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 07:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really. Her critically acclaimed singles aren't mentioned either as well in the opening section. Hotwiki (talk) 07:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, please stop changing "highest selling" to "best selling". There's nothing wrong with the term. Even artist Dua Lipa used the term "highest selling" when she presented an award to Kylie Minogue at the Brits Award 2024. This seems like another unnecessary change to the opening paragraph, that doesn't improve the article. Hotwiki (talk) 08:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

As for the infobox picture, I like the cropped version from @750h+:[1]. Just use that file from that editor. Hotwiki (talk) 08:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"Critically acclaimed" singles are most usually never mentioned in the lede (see Ray of Light (song) in Madonna but an album having an 80+ score on Metacritic and winning a grammy is notable for the lead section. Why remove the mention of critics loving her album? It was her first grammy win in 20 years...

Additionally, the cropped 1 image is too close to her face. If someone can remove the Cantonese subtitles then we would have more space to work with, but we have to make the best of what we have. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The cropped file by 750h+ was fine. Also may I remind you, not ALL Kylie Minogue albums have a Metacritic rating. Her first to sixth studio album don't have a Metacritic page. I'm sensing a pattern here, why do you keep the changing the lead section? Before, you mentioned her 4 PWL albums were teen pop albums. You claimed that Disco/Magic had "significant noise". Then you mentioned that the other Fever singles had the same chart success as Can't Get You Out of My Head. Now you didn't like the photo in the infobox, so you changed the picture for the second time. When someone cropped the image, you reverted it to your own upload. And now you keep insisting that Tension being critically acclaimed needs to be mentioned in the lead, and so as Padam Padam winning a Grammy in your most recent change. Hotwiki (talk) 17:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"and the Grammy-winning "Padam Padam" from the album Tension (2023) respectively" that line is incredibly wordy. Especially compare to her other album campaigns, in which the lead single is the only one mentioned in the lead section: "She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres on her subsequent albums, which spawned successful singles such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers"." Seehow that line didn't mention the parent album/year of those singles. Also "Come Into My world" also won a grammy and it isn't mentioned in the lead section. Hotwiki (talk) 17:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep the lead section as it is. You are heavily emphasizing on the Tension era in the lead section, by mentioning that Padam Padam won a Grammy, mentioning that single came from the album Tension, mentioning Tension's year of release (2023) and highlighting that Tension is "critically acclaimed". The lead section should be brief. Hotwiki (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

A: This is literally admitting to WP:OWN behavior. Anyone can change the lead section on Wikipedia, point blank period. Where did I say that the critical acclaim was based on Metacritic alone? Albums can be acclaimed without Metacritic, see Madonna.

B: Grammy winning Padam Padam is wordy, but "In the following years, Minogue became the only female artist to have a number-one album and a top ten single, from the 1980s to the 2020s in the UK Charts" isn't wordy? You don't seem to care about wordiness when it is regarding something you insist on keeping in the lead...

C: What is wrong with the album year release date? That's MOS for all singer lead articles, see Katy Perry and Lady Gaga..... PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 07:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

You only edit this article by changing the lead section again and again which is becoming a pattern. You've already proposed a lead section change from RFC, and most of the editors in this talk page have said, it was not improvement. I suggest you edit other articles, instead of drastically changing the lead section whenever you make an edit in this article. Hotwiki (talk) 07:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

If we look up at the history of this article, you've always find something to change in the lead article – which in my opinion, doesn't improve the article and you've been proven wrong by your previous claims in the past about Minogue's output. In the next few weeks or days or months, you would continue your pattern, by making another drastic change to the lead section, and like the previous times you've edited the article, I don't think it will benefit the article in any shape of form. Hotwiki (talk) 07:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

As for her Grammy wins, its already been pointed that she won two Grammy Awards in the lead section. No need to point out in the lead section when were those two times. You did that first with Padam Padam. And now you're mentioning her 1st Grammy win (Come into My World). We aren't enumerating all or any of her Brit Awards or Aria Awards wins in the lead section, for you to highlight her which song she got her 1st/2nd Grammy win. Hotwiki (talk) 07:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Also no need link the Wikipedia article of Time magazine in the lead section, as there's also a link for the Wikipedia article for Time100, which contains the Wikipedia article link for Time (magazine). 1 Wikipedia link related to Time magazine is enough, especially this article isn't about Time. Hotwiki (talk) 08:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

As for you accusing me of WP:OWN, well me calling you out for your "editing pattern" in this article and reminding you about your false claims regarding Minogue's output doesn't mean I am owning this article. I just simply disagreed with your edits, hence why your edits were reverted. I've also explained to you several times in this talk page/edit summaries on why your edits were reverted. Hotwiki (talk) 08:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Also to further comment on this drastic change[2] by PHShanghai. There's no need to exclude Charlene Robinson as that was her breakthrough acting role. No need to remove the year (1993), she joined Deconstruction, especially the year when joined Parlophone and Bmg were mentioned. There's no need to mention the parent album of "Padam Padam". The lead section should be selective on which projects should be highlighted, hence why NOT every Kylie Minogue album is mentioned in the lead section. The first product released by BMG Rights Management for Kylie Minogue was "Dancing" not Golden the album."Dancing" was released in January 2018. Golden the album was released in April 2018. So once again, @PHShanghai:, thats another misinformation you've added in the lead section.Hotwiki (talk) 08:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Contemporary sources for "Princess of Pop"

New sources for Princess of Pop that I've added to her legacy section:

British Vogue: As the princess of pop celebrates her 56th birthday [...] she shares five favourite looks from her five decades in pop with British Vogue.

NME: The Princess Of Pop has constantly reinvented herself and done things her own way.

BBC Radio 2: A new era of Kylie has officially begun and to celebrate, Radio 2’s Scott Mills sat down with the Princess of Pop [...]

The Irish Times: Our unstoppable Princess of Pop was back, drumming out sensual and joy-filled hits like Slow in 2003, All the Lovers in 2010 and Into the Blue in 2014. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Not really needed, as the "Princess of Pop" label is already cited well and didn't need more references. You don't need to add every article that labels Kylie Minogue as the "princess of pop". Hotwiki (talk) 00:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Is she wasn't referred as the "Australian Queen of Pop"? --Apoxyomenus (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Here are several American sources that label her as the Princess of Pop:

CNN: Of course, Kylie Minogue has a new album coming out titled “Disco.” The Princess of Pop has become well known for her dance tunes, and her 15th studio album drops on Friday.

USA Today: Australia's highest-selling female recording artist and "princess of pop" is a Gemini.

Vulture: The Princess of Pop released a new song today, “Magic,” along with a glowing music video.

Vulture again: "Just in time for fulfill our summer fantasies, princess of pop Kylie Minogue and Years & Years have collaborated on “Starstruck (Remix)"

W Magazine: (This one is very relevant) Kylie Minogue is perhaps best known in America for her hit song “Cant Get You Out of My Head.” To the rest of the world, she is known as the definitive “Princess of Pop.”

All of these are English-language American sources. I am not saying that sources calling her the "Australian Princess of Pop" do not exist (Billboard is one example) but to say outright that non-European/non-Australian sources have never referenced her title is untrue. There is no MOS policy stating that honorific nicknames can only be used for one person. I can find even more North American sources, these only took me around 5 minutes or so. Please discuss further before reverting again PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 11:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Every time I edit this article, you always revert it minutes later saying "not needed" and "it's fine as it was" even with proper sources and a talk page section opened. For more information, please see WP:SQS PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 11:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Once again, I disagreed with your changes. You don't need to take it personally, I just don't see how the recent changes you've made benefit the lead section. You have a habit/pattern of changing the lead section everytime you come across this article which isn't really helpful/needed to begin with. Hotwiki (talk) 12:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] That's the pattern I'm talking about. You've been doing this habit for how many months now? Hotwiki (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, why are you bolding Princess of Pop? and it looked like that in your edits? That is against Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Hotwiki (talk) 12:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Also I've now removed "European press" based from the references that's just been posted by PHShanghai. Hotwiki (talk) 12:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

See Madonna and Michael Jackson. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 18:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: I've checked the Wikipedia articles of Britney Spears ("Princess of Pop"), Beyoncé ("Queen Bey"), Cher ("Goddess of Pop") and Celine Dion ("Queen of power ballads") – their respective honorific nickname located in the lead section of their Wikipedia article, aren't in bold type face. Plus they directly lead to Honorific nicknames in popular music. A Wikilink in the lead section of this article, that you removed in your previous edit.[10] Hotwiki (talk) 04:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Correcting grammar is a habit that doesn't benefit the lead section? Let me remind you, in the midst of your several edit wars towards me you kept reverting to a version that had a blatant basic spelling mistake until I changed it. For every content I added that isn't grammatical fixes (Tension critical acclaim) I opened a section on the talk page for it. I am open to dispute resolution to tackle the WP:SQS at hand. Thank you. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 18:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: You were the only one changing it and nobody else changed it for grammatical purposes. Also, I will bring up your history of false claims in the past, for several times you've changed the lead section. Hotwiki (talk) 01:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2024 RfC

I would like to change the lead section. This is the process recommended by DRN to avoid the constant stonewalling on this article. I trimmed it down but still kept the same facts. It's now 40~ ish words less than the one being reverted to and is easier to read in my opinion. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Lead section edit

Kylie Ann Minogue AO OBE (/mɪˈnoʊɡ/; born 28 May 1968), is an Australian singer and actress. Known as the "Princess of Pop", Minogue has been noted for her reinventions in music and fashion. Her accolades include two Grammy Awards, four Brit Awards and eighteen ARIA Music Awards. She is the highest-selling female recording artist from Australia, with sales of over 80 million records worldwide. Born and raised in Melbourne, Minogue started as an actress in the Australian soap opera Neighbours (1986–1988). She began her music career in the late 1980s, releasing four albums under PWL. This gave her several hits in Australia and the UK, including "The Loco-Motion", "I Should Be So Lucky", "Especially for You", "Hand on Your Heart" and "Better the Devil You Know". Taking more creative control over her music, she signed with Deconstruction Records in 1993 and released the albums Kylie Minogue (1994) and Impossible Princess (1997) before leaving the label. After joining Parlophone in 1999, Minogue released Light Years (2000), including the Australian number ones "Spinning Around" and "On a Night Like This". Her next album, Fever (2001), was her international breakthrough becoming her best selling album to date. The lead single, "Can't Get You Out of My Head", topped the charts in over 40 countries and sold over five million copies. Subsequent singles, "In Your Eyes" and "Love at First Sight", peaked inside the top three in the UK. In the following years, she continued experimenting on her subsequent albums, which spawned hits such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers". She is the only female artist to have a UK number-one album and t op ten hitsin five consecutive decades, with Disco (2020) and the song "Padam Padam" from Tension (2023) respectively. Outside of music, Minogue made her film debut in The Delinquents (1989), and appeared in Street Fighter (1994), Moulin Rouge! (2001), Holy Motors (2012) and San Andreas (2015). In reality television, she appeared as a judge on both The Voice UK and The Voice Australia, both in 2014. Her other ventures include product endorsements, books, perfumes, and a wine brand. Additional achievements include being an ARIA Hall of Fame inductee, Officer of the Order of Australia (AO), Officer of the Order of the British Empire, Chevalier (knight) of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres and an honorary Doctor of Health Science (D.H.Sc.) for her work in cancer awareness. Time magazine has honoured her on its annual list of the 100 most influential people in the world in 2024.

Current lead section

Kylie Ann Minogue AO OBE (/mɪˈnoʊɡ/; born 28 May 1968) is an Australian singer and actress. She is the highest-selling female recording artist from Australia, having sold over 80 million records worldwide. Referred to as the "Princess of Pop", she has been recognised for reinventing herself in music and fashion as a style icon. Her accolades include two Grammy Awards, four Brit Awards and eighteen ARIA Music Awards. In 2024, Time named her one of the most influential people in the world. Born and raised in Melbourne, Minogue first achieved recognition starring as Charlene Robinson in the Australian soap opera Neighbours (1986–1988). She began her music career in the late 1980s, releasing four bubblegum and dance-pop-influenced studio albums under PWL. By the early 1990s, Minogue had amassed several top ten singles in Australia and the UK, including "The Loco-Motion", "I Should Be So Lucky", "Especially for You", "Hand on Your Heart" and "Better the Devil You Know". Taking more creative control over her music, she signed with Deconstruction Records in 1993 and released the albums Kylie Minogue (1994) and Impossible Princess (1997). By joining Parlophone in 1999, Minogue returned to mainstream dance-oriented music with Light Years (2000), including the number-one hits "Spinning Around" and "On a Night Like This". The follow-up, Fever (2001), was an international breakthrough for Minogue, becoming her best-selling album to date. Its lead single, "Can't Get You Out of My Head" became one of the most successful singles of the 2000s, selling over five million units. Follow up singles, "In Your Eyes" and "Love at First Sight" became hits as well. She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres on her subsequent albums, which spawned successful singles such as "Slow", "I Believe in You", "2 Hearts" and "All the Lovers". In 2017, she partnered with BMG Rights Management, with "Dancing" (2018) as their first release. In the following years, Minogue became the only female artist to have a number-one album and a top ten single, from the 1980s to the 2020s in the UK charts, with Disco (2020) and "Padam Padam" (2023) respectively. In film, Minogue made her debut in The Delinquents (1989), and appeared in Street Fighter (1994), Moulin Rouge! (2001), Holy Motors (2012) and San Andreas (2015). In reality television, she appeared as a judge on The Voice UK and The Voice Australia, both in 2014. Her other ventures include product endorsements, books, perfumes, charitable work and a wine brand. Minogue's achievements include being an ARIA Hall of Fame inductee, Officer of the Order of Australia (AO), Officer of the Order of the British Empire, Chevalier (knight) of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres and an honorary Doctor of Health Science (D.H.Sc.).

PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 14:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

This link right here[11] shows the "difference between revisions". @PHShanghai: removed the wikilink of the character of Minogue's breakthrough acting role - Charlene Robinson in the lead section. Removed the genre of Minogue's first four albums. Labeled "Spinning Around" as an Australian number-one single, when it was also number-one in the UK singles chart. Removed this description "She continued reinventing her image and experimenting with a range of genres". Removed Minogue's partnership with BMG Rights Management which released her albums and singles since 2018. Its not an improvement at all. As seen in this talkpage and the article history, this is not the first or third or fifth time @PHShanghai: changed the lead section in a "drastic" way, to no improvement. In the past, they have also introduced false information which were already brought up in this talkpage. Hotwiki (talk) 16:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you please summarize everything you're saying in less sentences? PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 00:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

To make it brief, your changes aren't an improvement to the lead section. Hotwiki (talk) 05:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

What is the question in this RfC? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@LaundryPizza03:, the RFC petitioner is requesting for comments, to change the lead section. Hotwiki (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: Can I see the older version thi is being compared to? Preferably, compare it side-by-side in the header. And the question needs to be brief and neutral. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 17:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@LaundryPizza03: [12] Hotwiki (talk) 18:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

References