Talk:Landseer (disambiguation)
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Requested move 22 October 2019
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Landseer (disambiguation) → Landseer – No primary topic for plain "Landseer", the painter gets 1,706 views but the dog gets 1,909 views (plus 1,239 from the "Landseer dog" redirect which the dog was at until the start of the month)[[1]] and everyone knows to search for "Firstname Lastname" while those searching for the dog will likely only search for "Landseer". Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is not an uncontroversial technical request. The painter is the established primary topic and is often referred to by surname alone, so it is very likely that people will just type "Landseer" to find him. --94.196.150.159 (talk) 12:16, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- The page was used as a DAB from 2004 until it was moved without discussion a few years ago, while that's enough to establish consensus, even if everyone looking for the painter searched with just "Landseer" there would be no primary topic by usage and nearly everyone will use the 1st name so if anything the dog is primary. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:26, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- See the discussions at Talk:Wight (disambiguation)#Requested move 7 January 2019 where the island gets more views and Talk:Raleigh (disambiguation)#Requested move where the poet gets nearly as many views but the similar arguments with Raleigh would clearly apply here that people searching for the singular word Landseer are much more likely to be looking for the dog than the painter. Similarly the creature is primary despite the island getting more views and being a level 5 vital article. The painter might arguably be primary by PT#2 but that's dubious given he's only a partial match for the name. Similarly Christopher Columbus gets 590,126 views compared to the Ohio city's 51,995 views [[2]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Crouch, Swale: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. The artist is the clear primary topic in terms of long-term significance. And many people probably don't know what his first name was, given like most artists he's usually just referred to by his surname. The dog is not an especially well-known breed, so I would completely disagree that people searching for "Landseer" are most likely to be searching for the dog. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Even if he is sometimes known by his 1st name he is still a partial match for "Landseer", for example Stoke doesn't redirect to Stoke-on-Trent, York doesn't redirect to New York and Newcastle doesn't redirect to Newcastle upon Tyne even though the city is very often called just "Newcastle" in everyday speech and it has redirected in the past. Yes the long-term significance is a factor here but it doesn't overcome the larger usage state for the dog which over a number of years gets 336,067 views (over the 2 different titles it was at) compared to only 90,699 for Edwin [[3]]. Under what basis do you not think people are not looking for the dog more often with plain "Landseer"? Yes I understand people are sometimes known by a single name and the dog is named after Edwin but logic and common sense says people are usually going to include "Edwin" in their search when looking for Edwin Landseer while they are far more likely to use just "Landseer" for the dog as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Southend does redirect to Southend-on-Sea but the Essex town probably has over 100x the population of the other places called "Southend" so it probably qualifies as a sensible primary topic and like Newcastle upon Tyne its often shortened and unlike surname holders readers could easily expect the town is called just "Southend" while no sensible person would expect the paintist to be under "Landseer". Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- As I said, I doubt many people even know his first name was Edwin. How many people know the first names of Monet or Caravaggio or Hogarth? They're almost invariably known by their surnames and that's how people will usually search for them. Landseer is no exception. He is by far the best-known person or thing called Landseer (much more well-known than the dog). This is therefore a prime example of a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; there are many other examples of words that are used as surnames redirecting to the most famous person by that name (e.g. Monet, Pepys, Dickens). Your town examples are completely irrelevant. Why would York redirect to New York? The latter is never known as York and the incredibly famous English city is not a lesser topic in any case. Stoke probably should redirect to Stoke-on-Trent, to be honest. Newcastle doesn't redirect to the English city because of the well-known (and larger) city in Australia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Its normal in encyclopedic usage and everyday speech to introduce a person by both first and last name and then use last (or 1st name) after. A reader searching for a person in an encyclopedia will either type the full name or not be too surprised in having to have a click or 2 to get what they want. On the other hand a reader looking for the dog is likely to search just "Landseer". Why pre-suppose people searching for "Landseer" want Edwin. This is therefore not a good example of a PRIMARYREDIRECT. There is nothing at Pepys (disambiguation) called sinply "Pepys" and the other uses at Monet (disambiguation) and Dickens (disambiguation) look relatively minor. I'd also point out that the dog isn't recent, it looks like its been in existence with that name for over 100 years so its not recentism. Furthermore Edwin has an article on 23 Wikipedias while the dog has an article on 40! New York is surely far more important than York even though its named after it, New York is probably one of the most famous cities in the world while York isn't. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:42, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- But New York is never commonly called York! That's the point. And even if it were, it certainly wouldn't be the primary topic for York, given there's another very, very famous city by that name which is historically one of the most important cities in England. Whereas the artist is referred to as Landseer. All the time. And he's a lot more famous than the dog breed (which is only called a Landseer because he painted one!). He's one of the most famous of all British artists, in fact. The fact the dog breed is just called Landseer is utterly irrelevant in this case. In terms of notability, it's no more notable compared to the artist than the things just called Dickens or Monet are to Charles and Claude. And I never mentioned recentism. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Look where Perth and Boston go (although the newer ones don't use "New" so its not a comparable situation). Look at the EB article which uses his full name and then uses just "Landseer". Art UK has no problem using his full name! As does National Galleries Scotland and Tate. I think you're over exaggerating how likely people are to use only the last name when searching on WP. The 1st criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC clearly isn't met which says "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." per the view stats I provided above the dog gets over 3.7x the views of Edwin and the dog being called just "Landseer" (unlike Edwin) is relevant since this deals with the singular word only, that is to say what people searching with just "Landseer" are looking for. I'd also point out that if we eliminate all the PTMs the dog gets nearly 66x the views of the horse (2,177 v 33 [[4]]) there's a strong case to make the dog primary! but because Edwin would sometimes be searched with the singular name a DAB is probably best. The 2nd criteria is "A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." its not clear this is even met, again this test focuses on the singular name only and as I noted the dog has articles on more WPs than Edwin. I accept and agree there are rare cases where its appropriate to redirect a surname to a person but that's not usually the case and clearly not here. You never mentioned recentism but I noted it because that might be an argument against this if the dog was something that had recently gained attention but would be forgotten shortly. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:26, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- They go to major cities, as opposed to the small towns after which they are named. I don't think you can really call York, historically the second most important city in England and the capital of its largest county, a small town! Nor do I think you can compare in notability terms one of the best-known and influential artists in English history, very often known by his surname alone, with a relatively obscure dog breed named after him, which is in fact frequently not even recognised as a separate breed, and claim the latter is primary usage for the word "Landseer". Clearly we completely disagree on this issue. I suggest we leave it for now and see what other editors and the closer say. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Look where Perth and Boston go (although the newer ones don't use "New" so its not a comparable situation). Look at the EB article which uses his full name and then uses just "Landseer". Art UK has no problem using his full name! As does National Galleries Scotland and Tate. I think you're over exaggerating how likely people are to use only the last name when searching on WP. The 1st criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC clearly isn't met which says "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." per the view stats I provided above the dog gets over 3.7x the views of Edwin and the dog being called just "Landseer" (unlike Edwin) is relevant since this deals with the singular word only, that is to say what people searching with just "Landseer" are looking for. I'd also point out that if we eliminate all the PTMs the dog gets nearly 66x the views of the horse (2,177 v 33 [[4]]) there's a strong case to make the dog primary! but because Edwin would sometimes be searched with the singular name a DAB is probably best. The 2nd criteria is "A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." its not clear this is even met, again this test focuses on the singular name only and as I noted the dog has articles on more WPs than Edwin. I accept and agree there are rare cases where its appropriate to redirect a surname to a person but that's not usually the case and clearly not here. You never mentioned recentism but I noted it because that might be an argument against this if the dog was something that had recently gained attention but would be forgotten shortly. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:26, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- But New York is never commonly called York! That's the point. And even if it were, it certainly wouldn't be the primary topic for York, given there's another very, very famous city by that name which is historically one of the most important cities in England. Whereas the artist is referred to as Landseer. All the time. And he's a lot more famous than the dog breed (which is only called a Landseer because he painted one!). He's one of the most famous of all British artists, in fact. The fact the dog breed is just called Landseer is utterly irrelevant in this case. In terms of notability, it's no more notable compared to the artist than the things just called Dickens or Monet are to Charles and Claude. And I never mentioned recentism. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Its normal in encyclopedic usage and everyday speech to introduce a person by both first and last name and then use last (or 1st name) after. A reader searching for a person in an encyclopedia will either type the full name or not be too surprised in having to have a click or 2 to get what they want. On the other hand a reader looking for the dog is likely to search just "Landseer". Why pre-suppose people searching for "Landseer" want Edwin. This is therefore not a good example of a PRIMARYREDIRECT. There is nothing at Pepys (disambiguation) called sinply "Pepys" and the other uses at Monet (disambiguation) and Dickens (disambiguation) look relatively minor. I'd also point out that the dog isn't recent, it looks like its been in existence with that name for over 100 years so its not recentism. Furthermore Edwin has an article on 23 Wikipedias while the dog has an article on 40! New York is surely far more important than York even though its named after it, New York is probably one of the most famous cities in the world while York isn't. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:42, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- As I said, I doubt many people even know his first name was Edwin. How many people know the first names of Monet or Caravaggio or Hogarth? They're almost invariably known by their surnames and that's how people will usually search for them. Landseer is no exception. He is by far the best-known person or thing called Landseer (much more well-known than the dog). This is therefore a prime example of a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; there are many other examples of words that are used as surnames redirecting to the most famous person by that name (e.g. Monet, Pepys, Dickens). Your town examples are completely irrelevant. Why would York redirect to New York? The latter is never known as York and the incredibly famous English city is not a lesser topic in any case. Stoke probably should redirect to Stoke-on-Trent, to be honest. Newcastle doesn't redirect to the English city because of the well-known (and larger) city in Australia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Even if he is sometimes known by his 1st name he is still a partial match for "Landseer", for example Stoke doesn't redirect to Stoke-on-Trent, York doesn't redirect to New York and Newcastle doesn't redirect to Newcastle upon Tyne even though the city is very often called just "Newcastle" in everyday speech and it has redirected in the past. Yes the long-term significance is a factor here but it doesn't overcome the larger usage state for the dog which over a number of years gets 336,067 views (over the 2 different titles it was at) compared to only 90,699 for Edwin [[3]]. Under what basis do you not think people are not looking for the dog more often with plain "Landseer"? Yes I understand people are sometimes known by a single name and the dog is named after Edwin but logic and common sense says people are usually going to include "Edwin" in their search when looking for Edwin Landseer while they are far more likely to use just "Landseer" for the dog as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Southend does redirect to Southend-on-Sea but the Essex town probably has over 100x the population of the other places called "Southend" so it probably qualifies as a sensible primary topic and like Newcastle upon Tyne its often shortened and unlike surname holders readers could easily expect the town is called just "Southend" while no sensible person would expect the paintist to be under "Landseer". Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm surprised this debate has gone on for so long and has created so much heat between two users who are clearly much brighter than this duffer. I am neither a dog lover nor an art aficionado, but I do read a lot and watch a bit of TV, and have come across "Landseer" (no given name) as an artist many, many times over a great number of years, but as a dog breed never. If I were of an argumentative bent I would propose "Labrador", the dog breed, over the geographic entity as the primary meaning. Everyone knows something about the dog breed, but as a region how many of us could point to its location on a map of North America, let alone say anything about its status in Canada. It would be fatuous of course and insulting to the good denizens of Labrador, but illustrative. Labrador the region is the substantive meaning, and the dog breed a trivial derivative. So with Landseer the artist. Doug butler (talk) 07:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Support per convincing nomination and subsequent arguments. In addition to the dog breed, the surname "Landseer" also delineates other artists listed under Landseer (disambiguation)#People with the surname. Not comparable to towering surnames such as Bach or Wagner. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.