Talk:List of Azerbaijani films before 1920

Untitled

Impossible, the ADR was not founded until 1918. How could the movies between 1898 and 1918 have been made in "the country of Azerbaijan"?Hajji Piruz 22:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

They were made in Russian Azerbaijan. --Grandmaster 04:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, impossible, the area you are talking about was split up into governorates and none of them were called Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan was wikilinked to the Republic of Azerbaijan, which is even more incorrect. These films were Azerbaijani films, but unless they were made in the ADR, Azerbaijan SSR, or Republic of Azerbaijan, they werent made in Azerbaijan.

If you want I can show you a map or give you the wikilinks to the governorates. Wikipedia has these articles already written.

Lets keep Wikipedia as accurate and factual as possible.Hajji Piruz 16:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think movie page should not be a place for political or ethnic POV and OR. Movies were produced in the country of Azerbaijan (read 1863 article by Abbott for definition of "country of Azerbaijan"). Whether that country was part of Russian empire, Soviet Union or was independent has nothing to do with the location where the movies were made. Atabek 19:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I dont understand why the Russian history of the region is being undermined. These movies were not produced in the country of Azerbaijan. Baku Governorate, Elisabethpol Governorate, etc... where did these governorates come from then? Whats even more interesting is that its being wikilinked to the Republic of Azerbaijan (last I checked, it was founded in 1991).

Wikipedia is supposed to be as accurate and factual as possible, regardless of what article it is. Atabek, your statement "I think movie page should not be a place for political or ethnic POV and OR" is completely unacceptable as A) your are assuming bad faith and dividing along national lines, and B) you are saying that this article doesnt need to be improved. Thats basically what you are saying...Hajji Piruz 19:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, WP:AGF. Movies listed in the page are Azerbaijani and they were made in Azerbaijan, which is not only the name of the modern state but also the name of the region, northern part of which was in Russian Empire. Atabek 23:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Not it was not. It was neither a nation nor a region. I can show you maps if you like...WP:NPOVHajji Piruz 02:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan was an independent state as of 1918 (the period spans over to 1919). Moreover, it was a country/region recognized under this name, see Keith Abbott's publication from 1863. Atabek 03:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

By that logic, we could say that these movies were made in Armenia, as the territory of Azerbaijan according to some 19th century sources, was Armenian territory.Hajji Piruz 17:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Simply answer, just state different entities. This way, it says ADR between 1918 and 1919 and it says the governorates between 1898 and 1918.Hajji Piruz 17:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about the name of Azerbaijan does not belong here.--Dacy69 13:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm having trouble with this. If this is Hajji Piruz' first edit, then this is his first revert. His third edit may or may not classify as a revert, since he added text and a link to Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, but the effect and purpose was to remove the link to Azerbaijan. More importantly this is the kind of stupid business that the arbitration case was meant to address. In this case, an argument about whether a particular geopolitical and ethnic region should be referred to as "Azerbaijan" at a time when "Azerbaijan" did not formally exist as a political entity.

I am tempted to drop my role as admin and edit the article as an editor. I would pick a middle-of the road formulation that pleased no one completely, and I would make sure to report everyone who reverted me on either side. If I was to do that here, I might write, "films that were produced in the region now known as Azerbaijain, which at the time was part of the Russian Empire (1898-1918) and then the ADR (1919-1920)." I think it is reasonable to say that the films were made in Azerbaijan, and also reasonable to say that the films were made in an ethnic region that was part of certain changing political entities. So if both are reasonable, the only unreasonable thing is to argue that only one version is right. There was a whole arbitration case over edit warring over highways articles, whether one should title an article New York State Route 15 or State Route 15 (New York) and the ArbCom ruled that it was disruptive to make a big deal over small things. Here since we are talking about article text rather than the title you have the opportunity to expand the description to something that will satisfy both sides (partly) and still be correct, rather than taking the unilateral view that only one side (usually "my" side, depending on who "me" is) can be correct. Thatcher131 01:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe what Thatcher proposes makes sense. I agree to such wording. The thing is that these movies are considered to be the first Azerbaijani movies, even if there was no state called Azerbaijan back then. And the territory of modern day Republic of Azerbaijan was called Azerbaijan before 1918, despite the claims of Hajji Piruz. Please see this memorandum of British consul written in 1863: [1] The problem with Hajji Piruz is that he is edit warring over the name of Azerbaijan on a large number of Azerbaijan related articles, this is not the only one. I posted a few links in my evidence to arbcom. It really becomes very tiresome to have the same dispute on almost every page related to Azerbaijan and debating with Piruz what to call the territory of Azerbaijan before 1918. Grandmaster 10:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

History of the name Azerbaijan correct wikilink

History of the name Azerbaijan is the correct wikilink for this time period, as it explains in detail what is meant. Since the current country of Azerbaijan doesn't encompass all the geography listed during the timefram of the list, and it does link to the current country, it should suffice. I hope this ends the controversy. Thanks!--Cerejota 22:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, why is History of the name Azerbaijan and not, say, History of Azerbaijan is the right link? And why would page about the movies shot in the country which is Azerbaijan be pointing to history of the name page? Not quite a correct justification. Atabek 23:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Because the Azerbaijan descriibed in that page didn't exist between 1898 and 1919. The concerns of original research are legitimate even if the user making them is not the best one. I am an uninvolved editor, so I seek to bring clarity on the question. It simply makes no sense

For example, you do not link movies made in the Soviet Union to Russia, because Russia as a country didn't exist under the Soviet Union. You do have a point that History of Azerbaijan might be a better link, but linking to the present day country makes no sense at all. Thanks!--Cerejota 23:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the country did exist from 1918 to 1919 as an independent country. Prior to that it was also known as geographical region of Azerbaijan, so may want to review the discussion at this page: [2]. Thanks. Atabek 23:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand this, this is better reflected by the History of Azerbaijan article because the bulk of the time frame (1898-1917) there was no country. And there is no obvious political connection between the Baku commune/Centrocaspian dictatorship and modern-day Azerbaijan, however, this is explained better in History of Azerbaijan. Do you understand that WP:SYNTH doesn't allow you to draw a novel narrative that connects modern day Azerbaijan with events before the country existed? Linking to History of Azerbaijan resolves this problem. Thanks!--Cerejota 23:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Why dont we just use the historically accurate governorate terms? It shouldnt even say Azerbaijan, that in itself is misleading.Hajji Piruz 01:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I don't see how adding the word "governates" helps the general reader understand the issue. Thatcher131 19:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed already, upon your recent block [3]. Atabek 03:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have rewritten the intro. If trying to force things into one short sentence with one link doesn't work because there is no universally agreed-upon link, then try adding more information rather than limiting information. Thatcher131 04:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your edit is good and comprehensive. I support. I don't think History of the name Azerbaijan is appropriate link here. Grandmaster 05:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Good introduction. Thanks Thatcher131. Atabek 18:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Added some more context. Too much wording and unnecessary information to say such a simply thing, but if this makes Atabek and Grandmaster happy, then why not?

However, isnt it possible that some of these films were not made on the territory of the modern Republic of Azerbaijan? Things werent as "simple" as they are today, Azeris were spread out throughout the Caucasus, include in present day Georgia and Armenia, and likewise others lived in the territory of present day Republic of Azerbaijan as well.

It is highly likely that some of these movies were not made in the present day Republic of Azerbaijan's territory.Hajji Piruz 19:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since they're all red links for now, who knows? I'd say that once some of the films have articles, if it can be documented that some were made by Azeris but not in the stated political territory, then they could be moved into a new list and top the page with a see also (For films made by Azerbaijani filmmakers outside of this territory, see Some other article.) This could even include films made by Azerbaijani directors that reflect Azerbaijani culture but that were made in Italy, Russia proper or even the US, if such films exist. It depends on whether you want to divide up films by geography or culture. Presumably if you have enough information about the films, you could do both. But right now they are all redlinks. Thatcher131 19:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolute majority of the indicated movie titles refer to Azerbaijan, as they relate to oil workers or the name Baku. Can we do some research on movies and create Wikipages for them, or it would be irrelevant to create page dedicated to each movie?

Actually, there were several movies, the screenplays for which were written by the prominent Azerbaijani writer Rustam Ibragimbekov, that were made outside of Azerbaijan. One of them, "Burnt by the Sun" received an Oscar, another one was "Urga, the territory of love", which was nominated for Oscar. He also authored the scenario for a French-Russian movie "East-West" as well as recently made "Nomad", with participation of U.S., Russian and Kazakh actors about the history of Kazakhstan. Atabek 21:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the current solution is way better, and it is great we can reach this. I also agree with the SSR solution for the periods between 1920s and 1980s, and feel stupid it didn't occur to me. However, I recommend these lists be populated with actual contents that are not red-linked before the deletionist cabal gets to them, they are ripe for listcruft AfD... Thanks! --Cerejota 06:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As titles indicate majority of the movies were made in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan. So regarding the comment above by User:Hajji Piruz as well as yet another edit inserting governorates after User:Thatcher131's conclusion that it's less relevant than using Azerbaijan, the movies were undoubtely made inside what's known as Azerbaijan. Atabek 12:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you agree this version is way better and informative? Thanks!--Cerejota 03:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how the fact that Azerbaijan was divided into governorates of Russian empire is relevant on the movie listing page. It's like saying California is a U.S. State and used to be part of Mexico on a page about Hollywood movie listing, does not it sound comic? I don't see the logic behind political WP:SOAP on this particular page, when there are so many Wikipedia pages with insufficient or incorrect information to be fixed. Atabek 04:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge, no films were made in California during the time it belonged to Mexico. That is the key difference, and why your analogy is a fallacy. One cannot be a-historical when talking about - ahem, ahem - history. I have absolutely zero interest in the political questions regarding Azerbaijan. I do however, have an interest in keeping Wikipedia free of bias: associating Azerbaijani films from a time period before the modern Republic of Azerbaijan as a country existed is like linking List of Russian-language films to the Soviet Union - it is ignoring history for political purposes... dangerously close to actual WP:SOAPBOX. Thanks!--Cerejota 05:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)