Talk:List of K-pop songs on the Billboard charts

Seeking consensus on addition of Pinkfong's charting and whether it should be included on a listing for K-pop

After another editor, User talk:121.187.223.128 added Pinkfong's "Baby Shark" charting on the Hot 100 chart, I added their other charting on this list and to charts on List of K-pop on the Billboard charts, with a note to the IP user on their Talk page that I could not make a decision as to whether this children's song should be included on a listing of K-pop charting. The company is South Korean, but the song is a version of an old English song, and sung in English.

However, based on my own introduction of another discussion at an affliated page, List of K-pop albums on the Billboard charts request for consensus pertaining to other language additions by K-pop artists, I feel I might be leading to inclusion of Pinkfong's song. However, Pinkfong, and it's singers, are not known as K-pop singers or idols and Billboard is not qualifying the song other than being from a South Korean children's education company and it is not being covered by their K-pop on-line column Billboard K-Town.

In K-pop I find, "Although it generally indicates "popular music" within South Korea, the term is often used in a narrower sense to describe a modern form of South Korean pop that is influenced by styles and genres from around the world, such as experimental, jazz, gospel, hip hop, R&B, reggae, electronic dance, folk, country, and classical on top of its traditional Korean music roots." One ABC news report described the "Baby Shark" music as "K-pop style" [1], but I feel less qualified to label the song. Maybe its merely being from South Korea and being popular music alone qualifies it for K-pop inclusion (in the broader sense, per the K-pop page), I am not sure.

Another South Korean musician's 2012 charting, Jung Mina (*Indie-folk gayageum player) is included on the Next Big Sound chart on the "List of K-pop on the Billboard charts" and identified as such. Based on no complaints being made about that, Pinkfong's songs might be acceptable, but discussion is open for consensus.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:58, 10 January 2019 (UTC) Their album was also added to the Billboard 200 chart dated 2019-01-26.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 03:11, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on inclusion of "other language" charting by K-pop artists

For a discussion about adding Lay and WayV and their social, album and song chartings to these listing pages for K-pop, see Seeking consensus on inclusion of "other language" albums charted by K-pop artists.

"Seoul Town Road"

1. It's a country-rap song, not K-pop
2. Having RM as a feature doesn't make it K-pop as he performs other genres (hip-hop, in this case)
3. Billboard has never credited "Seoul Town Road" on its charts
4. Having "Seoul Town Road" as charting at the record-breaking eighteen weeks may be confusing for readers unfamiliar with Billboard's remix rules

That's why we should not have "Old Town Road" on this list. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 02:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: Pinging to avoid edit warring. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 02:35, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with all above points, but think we can reword it to make it viable. During our Reverts, I was in the process of re-wording the addition to say (as cited by sources), that the Original "Old Town Road" had reached 18 weeks on charting, along with the tracking for all 4 remixes, the most recent one being "Seoul Town Road". I agree that the song is not K-pop, but the novelty of a K-pop artist (these list pages for K-pop on the Billboard charts include social trackings of K-pop artists, too), featuring on a record breaking #1, albeit just one of the remixes, on Billboard is worth being on this list. Maybe we can discuss how to reword it to make it worthwhile? Nothing is set in stone here and due to K-pop remixes with other artists, and even Korean artists (other genres) charting on the Billboard charts, I see no reason not to be flexible.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 02:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The lede of the article reads This is a list of K-pop songs and singles on the Billboard charts. "Seoul Town Road" is not a K-pop song. If it were, then I'd say we may mention a note on how the remix counts for "Old Town Road" sales – but that's not the case here. Worth noting that for a remix to count on Billboard as the same song, I believe it has to be 50% similar. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Don't forget to share a Thanks ♥) 15:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Nice7What, wanted to share a recent update on the tracking for the Seoul Town Remix, [2] - "(Notably, fellow BTS member RM did jump on a remix of Lil Nas X's record-19-week No. 1 "Old Town Road," although he did not receive Hot 100 chart billing, as their "Seoul Town Road" rework did not account for the bulk of the song's overall consumption in any week.)"........just as well you cautioned me not to include it. I only dabble with chart informaton, so didn't know how remixes were calculated anyway.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 02:59, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Page is too large, consider creating standalone articles

To the main editors of this page, y'all might wanna consider splitting off the Japan Hot100 and World Digital Song Sales sections into their own standalone articles. Both of these tables are too large/long to remain here. This article has become an extremely, extremely long list and the MOS/documentation guidelines for list articles caution against letting this happen. Myself and another editor did something similar on the M Countdown page and split off the majority of the winners lists into their own articles to reduce the bulk on the main page. The same should be done here. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Carlobunnie for the heads up. I guess one of those editors would be me. Good suggestion, I just removed the Japan chart entirely as other international charts like China's and the Philippines' charts had been removed a while ago, when they ended. It is a collapsed chart and I suspect it was not viewed very often anyway. If you would like to start a new page with it, feel free to use the data collected. The chart updates a day later than all the others and was an additional chore to keep up with. I had attempted to delete it in the past, but for some reason WP wouldn't let me do it all at once....it worked today. That frees up some space.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 07:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013:I suppose I could copy the JH100 info to a new article...I actually thought that's what would have been done instead of it being deleted but I get why you did. Any idea what you're gonna do about that hefty WDSS table? It's def the most popular k-pop related BB chart given how many acts chart on it. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 07:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

If it gets tagged I will create a new page for it. I think the song charts all together are better for now. When you use the Japan chart data for a new page, just add a Summary note that it came from this page, per rules. Thanks.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 07:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC) I forgot, you might need a subscription to keep updating the Japan chart unless you use the Japanese page, which is a little harder to work with, but can be done. Let me know if you need the site.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 07:33, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Already did :) but my phonescreen didn't register when I copied the # for the page rev prior to your deletion of the section so it saved w the wrong permalink 😩. I usually follow the BBJ chart, not BB's updates. It just seems a shame to let this all be gone for good after the amt of work you put into it, though idk if I have it in me to keep it up as I'm already working on the BBK H100 pages (together w another editor) which take a lot out of me sometimes. We'll see I guess. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 08:51, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I left a note for you about your Draft for the Japan chart on your Talk page. And I wanted to add here that I didn't delete it simply because you mentioned it. I had been looking for a way to reduce the page size and attempted to delete it back in October, see this edit and subsequent edits I made here: [3] Per Wikipedia:Article size#No need for haste I read some wiggle room for List pages to be kept intact, even if they are getting a little larger than most. The subsections are easy to click on and there is not a lot of text on the page anyway. I will consider your suggestion for a split, especially as I would like to add more references; but I know from other splits I have done, that readership for the new article sometimes suffers. And, as I said on your Talk page, I will continue to look to update the notes section on the Japan chart info., but may have to do it tomorrow as the weekly BB chart work is coming up soon.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 09:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I am including a continuation of this discussion which I added at User talk:Carlobunnie#Draft for Japan chart, including original signstamp times:--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

"Hey Carlobunnie, I was busy earlier and didn't have time to fully respond. Per the notes at the top of this chart, here:................."The earliest chart data available is for only two weeks in 2008, on the chart issues dated May 10 and November 22. For 2009, chart is missing results for weeks 2009-01-07 – 2009-03-21, 2009-07-25, 2009-12-26, and all 2009 number of weeks charted). For 2010, missing 2010-01-16, 2010-05-22 (stops at 26) 2010-07-03, 2010-07-10, 2010-10-30, 2010-12-18, and all 2010 number of weeks charted. For 2011, missing 2011-01-07 – 2011-01-29, 2011-02-26, 2011-05-07, 2011-07-23, 2011-08-20, 2016-07-16"......... which I made years ago when first doing the BB English language chart review.....they may not be accurate now. You will need to go through the chart and verify again to be certain which dates are actually still missing. Sometime in subsequent years, another editor used the Japan language page to add some missing entries and did not change my notes....so some of the dates might have been filled in. I did not go through their additions one-by-one to check....and I put it on a list of things to do, but as the page grew, it went to the bottom of the list. I will look for their entries in past edits and try to help update these notes, too. I didn't want to add this to the Talk page of your draft until we can conclude what is what.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 08:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC) P.S. - it is nice to have someone else interested in these charts. The updates are time consuming, and no matter how much I love them....still nice to see someone else taking the time, with interest!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 09:00, 23 February 2021 (UTC)"

"OK, I have found the bulk of the edits I was referring to. The other editor was updating the Japan chart, at the time, weekly and also added some missing dates. Here it is: [4] Starting a review of the additions, I already see that the first citation for the first entry for "I Love You" conflicts with what was added by the editor, the citation says the song was performed by v-u-den, not Ryu Si-won and peaked at #67 on 2008-05-05, not #18 on 2008-05-10 which they added. And, we can no longer see it on the English site where the Japan Hot 100 chart currently starts with April 9, 2011 here [5] and lists only the top 10. As I did not add the first entry and find a problem with the citation, I personally would delete it unless another one can be found. And the review of these additions by that editor needs to be completed. The page for Ryu Si-won#Singles also charted the song at #18 in 2008, edited in 2011 here [6], but the link to the Japanese website is dead now, alas. The chart dates always vary by two days on the English site [7] - current week is Feb. 20 and the Japanese site, current week is Feb. 22 [8], but I always used the English site for the dates anyway. The most recent Japan 100 charts, with subscription, lists all 100 positions. The chart I used in the beginning was located under a different URL attached to the old BB subscription service and was moved to the present URL a couple of years ago. At Wayback Machine I am finding some of the chart archived, [9], but not all of it. As much to say, this chart needed work and had weaknesses, and was the last of the remaining Asian charts on the page, which were my reasons for deleting it. I don't know that it deserves a stand-alone page, but that is for you to decide and other reviewers that may monitor it. I will try to help out some more.At a minimum the very first entry needs verification, and I apologize for that, I should have noticed it earlier, but I trusted the editor's input.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 11:58, 23 February 2021 (UTC)"

"Oops...I made a mistake on my review of the first entry....I was looking at the May 5 and May 12 chart dates and missed the Ryu Si-won #18 on the May 5 chart....so the only difference on the page is the chart date of May 10, but at that time BB was pre-dating charts by 7 days, so I don't know why the editor listed it as May 10 instead of May 5? At any rate, you might want to go over these entries to be comfortable with publishing the page. Thanks and good luck.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2021 (UTC) I counted on my fingers to try to account for the May 10 date (May 5 minus 2 equals May 3, plus 7 equals May 10) then looked up the 2008 calendar....May 10 is the date for the Saturday chart, so assuming the Japanese page listed the date of entry, it is probably correct...Now I remember why I didn't double-check this editor's work at the time!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC) Oh no....I can't stop thinking about it! Now I think the correct chart date should be May 3 on the page....as I pointed out, the sites vary by 2 days (and the chart would not list an entry date! Oh please let me stop!....I think the date is probably what that editor always put for her entries, which is always 2 days past the ones I put....since she was using the Japanese site. I don't know how you may want to reconcile this on the page, if you think it needs it. My brain uses the English site calendar....so I was confused.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:05, 24 February 2021 (UTC)"

Adding comments from editor User:TWICEcoasterLane0 which were added to User talk:Bonnielou2013#Japan Hot 100 section of List of K-pop songs on the Billboard charts, including original signstamp:--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

"Hi Bonnielou2013, I noticed you removed completely the Japan Hot 100 section of the List of K-pop songs on the Billboard charts, I have been checking that section to know the chart history of lot of kpop song in that chart since 2018, so I really don't understand why was suddenly removed since this change you did and the resume 07:04, 23 February 2021‎ Bonnielou2013 talk contribs‎ 194,053 bytes −53,012‎ →‎Japan Hot 100 (Complete): remove last Asian (international) don't add a justifiable reason, I want to add that section again and updating it with the last changes since the date it was removed so I want to talk to you about it. TWICEcoasterLane0 (talk) 05:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)"

Hi TWICEcoasterLane0 and welcome to the above discussion. First, I apologize that I removed the chart without giving all interested editors a chance for input. I'm afraid that since I was basically the only one editing the Japan Hot 100 chart since I first created this page List of K-pop on the Billboard charts in Decemberr 2014, at which time results of the chart were included here: [10]. Afterwards I split the songs section to List of K-pop songs on the Billboard charts in November 2016. But, my almost exclusive editing of the pages does not give me ownership of the pages and I was wrong to make the decision to remove the chart so quickly and without fully discussing it with others. However, the full reason, as I noted in the Edit Summary was: "remove last Asian (international) chart for page byte size" [11]. I had removed the discontinued Asian charts, Billboard PH Hot 100 (The Philippines) and China V (which were short-lived and both were discontinued in 2018), see here in September 2020, to help reduce the page's byte size: [12] and [13] The popular Billboard K-pop Hot 100 for South Korea was never included in these List pages, as it has a page of its own, and the exclusion is noted. With the addition of many new charts, and including two new global charts Billboard Global 200 and Billboard Global Excl. U.S., as well as the inclusion of K-pop on several more Canadian charts which were added....it seemed appropriate to reduce the page size by limiting the charts, by one means, to North American based ones (Billboard magazine is an American magazine), along with the popular global ones. See the extensive list for "International Charts" at Billboard charts here: [14], and note several other charts which are not included on these K-pop list pages (including UK Singles Chart and UK Albums Chart, as well as other European and Australian charts) that are excluded due to the sheer amount of page size and editor work they would take. Some limits had to be placed. Even catching up to "Complete" all the K-pop data for the charts which are currently listed would be a large amount of work and add to page size.

In February, during the earlier part of this discussion, editor Carlobunnie started a draft for the chart here: Draft:List of K-pop songs on Billboard Japan Hot 100 by cutting and pasting the chart data that I had deleted from this page. You can see the follow-up discussion about it above. And as Carlobunnie was recommending at least two SPLITS from this main page, including the one removed, the Japan Hot 100, you might find that helping get that Draft accepted to be your best option. The chart updating must be done from the Japanese language page here: [15], unless one has a Billboard subscription online for this one: [16] or access to physical magazine copies, where I think the chart can be found. I was personally interested in the Japan Hot 100 chart, and without the byte size problem, I might have wanted to keep it and update it. But, as I also said, it updates on a different date than the other charts, and was time-consuming. Carlobunnie also recommended splitting out the larger World Digital Song Sales chart, which we discuss above. It currently has a page World Digital Song Sales which includes all the K-pop number one singles and more artist and singles data that pertains to K-pop, which might be redundant in creating a new page. We are still debating that one and I opposed a split for now. So please join our discussion for any ideas. This List page will continue to grow and be problematic due to size. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks for joining us TWICEcoasterLane0.:)--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 03:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi Bonnielou2013, thanks for the answer it is very helpful, I understand the situation and it makes sense the page of kpop songs in billboard is really too large, and the list of songs on billboard japan hot 100 is long enough to have its own article. I'm new to wikipedia system, how can we get the draft accepted? It seems the best option just updating that draft till now and then working on it every week. Sadly we can't see the billboard japan hot 100 chart in the official billboard page, but there is this page who have the complete history of the chart and is updated every week too, I can work on it using it. I want to know if the best option is updating the draft and then get it approved or wait to be approved to start updating it? Again thank you very much for your cordiality and answer. --TWICEcoasterLane0 (talk) 20:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi again and thanks TWICEcoasterLane0 Yes, we may work on the Draft page and help Carlobunnie get it ready. It must have edits every three months or it will get Deleted by administrators. I have just updated to the present chart date 2021-04-17 from the BB English site. Could you please take over and do the next update from the Japanese site that you use? The new date there will probably be 2021-04-21. As you are new, I will look over your first Edit and make sure it looks OK....also you may ask me any questions here. Don't worry about making mistakes, you can fix them later and explain what you did in the Edit Summary at the bottom. Carlobunnie may want to make some changes to the chart as they are getting it ready to be Accepted....so we will go along with their decisions or make suggestions. One decision that has to be made is which Chart Date will we use, the English site date or the Japanese site date (for all the years except for a small batch of entries from the Japan site, which I talk about in this discussioin above, I used the English site dates). Anyway....don't worry about that now TWICEcoasterLane0....there is no rush and it is nice that three of us will be working on it! Carlobunnie said they are busy with other work, so I think they will be happy to let you take over the weekly updates. For me, I am happy to share the Billboard K-pop work with others, as it was getting to be a lot to do every week, and I don't have energy for other pages....hahaha. For now, if OK with Carlobunnie, let's continue Draft discussion here....I always hate it when the Draft Talk page disappears after the page is uploaded and this data entry information we are sharing can be added to the new article Talk page later, and may be helpful for future SPLITs from this page. Anyway, let me hear from you, teamwork....fighting!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

For your attention, Carlobunnie, I have split out the large World Digital Songs chart, as you suggested....recent hits and a need to add more citations pushed me ahead. Also, I have updated and nearly completed the Draft for the Japan chart. Go over it and make any changes you might think are necessary. I think it is good to go with listing the 2008 - 2011 years as Incomplete, then we can update them as we have time. At a minimum, you can get it up and added back to this page's list, with the referral to the newly added page. Thanks so much for pushing this, I was getting a little lazy with my WP work, and this has helped me regain interest. :}--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 08:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC'

@Bonnielou2013: I just published the Japan draft. I honestly forgot all about it until today. I see the last dates you added were in July, so I'll try to bring it up to date. Apologies in advance if I miss anything out but I will try to be as accurate as I can. Please keep an eye out in case I make any mistakes. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:27, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Good teamwork Carlobunnie! I made a couple of changes and added Edit Summary explanations, except I forgot to add that Enhypen's "Given-Taken" had mistakenly been left off in Dec. 2020. If the chart lists the Remix or new version as new, then I do the same. Also, on Jang Keun-suk...I added his Japanese release as TVXQ's Japanese releases, etc. are listed, even though some did not have original Korean versions. I found all the work of distinguishing between Korean/English/Japanese entries on all of these charts a big burden. So, for the most part, I added them.

Also, if I have skipped a few weeks, when I catch up, I SAVE the added chart and add an Edit Summary saying it is that chart date. That way if mistakes are made, then editors can find where they were made by searching the Edit Summaries for chart date added. And chart watchers can open those older page edits to see which songs charted on that date. I have found my own mistakes and made corrections this way. But, you are free to update the chart as you wish. Again, good job!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 01:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Usage of pound sign (#) to refer to rankings

Hey @Bonnielou2013:, I was reading MOS:POUND recently and I think all the places where 'at #1', 'at #10' etc. is written in the article should be changed to either 'number one' or 'No.1'. I did check similar list articles related to other Billboard chart (like the Hot100 ones) and they don't use the # sign either. Didn't want to take it upon myself to change anything without discussing with you first, in case I'm wrong, and because you upkeep the page. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Carlobunnie you are probably right. I am traveling and will have to look at in in a few days. Thanks,--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 20:04, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bonnielou2013: no rush. Happy (and safe) travels! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Carlobunnie  Done--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 01:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

All the discontinued charts are gone

I decided to remove them to make this list little bit shorter. 191.125.181.112 (talk) 12:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi new editor, I added a Welcome to your Talk pages on your several IP locations which I hope is helpful. This article Talk page is to discuss major changes. Your changes have been reverted pending discussion. The deletion of a few old charts does not help much with spacing. In the past, myself and other editors have created new pages by deleting larger charts and creating new pages (ie. Japan Hot 100 and World Digital Song Sales). Both of these changes were discussed prior to doing so. Also, removing the most important song chart, Hot 100, needs discussion.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Instead of deleting the Discontinued charts (as I hastily did with the Japan Hot 100 in the past and which was saved by another editor) I am currently working on a new page draft for the Discontinued charts for Songs, Albums and Artists.....Hopefully this will help with page sizes.

Another new page for the two combined BB Global charts and another new page for the Hot Trending Songs might help. If anyone wants to volunteer to do these? Remember to provide a notation for the transferred data to this article page in the Edit Summary to give credit, and add a "Main article" link under the chart's name. And IP editor 191.125.181.112, if you haven't done a new page yet and would like to....I can help if you need me to...we can discuss on your Talk page or on mine.

As with other Twitter related charts, BB may discontinue the Hot Trending Songs chart....that is why I initially recommended only referring a link to the chart and not detailing it's weekly large data here. This was vetoed by another editor, and I have continued the weekly additions.

Also, another thought - we can list only the top 10 positions for the Global charts and the Hot Trending Songs. Open for discussion.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Thats not a bad idea 191.126.164.26 (talk) 01:07, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

In addition, for continuity, I have linked this topic from another Talk page Talk:List of K-pop on the Billboard charts where User contributions for IP editor 191.126.42.180 also made article changes which were reverted, including the deletion of several charts, both active and discontinued, including Artist 100, Hot Tours and Social 50, and others....and the addition of the Hot 100 chart to that page. These major changes needed discussion.

Again, I am preparing a new page which will include all Discontinued charts, which may include the important Social 50 chart which is in a "suspended" status. BB said they were tweaking the chart in December 2020, and that it would be continued. Needless to say, without getting into the politics of it.....wiping out the record-setting K-pop history of BTS and others on this chart from Wikipedia's K-pop BB chart list page would be amiss. Either it should remain in its suspended status on the active main page for all of these K-pop charts, List of K-pop on the Billboard charts, or moved temporarily to the new Discontinued charts page which I am working on, pending being made active again by BB.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I have an idea a better idea: What if you made a page for Kpop songs on the Billboard Hot 100 ONLY. 191.126.164.26 (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The Hot 100 section is far too short to warrant splitting off into a standalone article. If the entries were as numerous as the WDSS or JH100 charts then it would make sense to split it off. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 01:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I hide the positions from the largest charts, just like the discontinued ones.

I made this edit to make this page a little shorter 181.203.183.89 (talk) 20:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you on this edit. It makes the page easier to move around, although it doesn't help to reduce the actual page byte size. I tried hiding some of the larger charts a couple of years ago, but someone changed them back and I didn't argue. And thanks to your same edits on the Discontinued charts, it gets them ready for the move to the new page.

And please, since you are good with details, would you like to help with the weekly chart updates? It is a serious committment and takes about two hours each week. I will wait for you to get started tomorrow morning (EST or New York City time....BB updates within a few hours after 4:30 a.m.). I have mostly been doing the edits alone since 2014 (with the watchful eyes and many helpful corrections from other editors for things I miss or make mistakes on)....and am ready to turn it over to an interested new editor! The edits include all the BB K-pop pages - main page, albums page, singles page, and World Digital Songs pages. Another editor has been doing the Japan Hot 100 page. And once a year, the yearly charts page update.

I will wait for you to start the weekly updates! (Please remember to add an Edit Summary with a short note of the chart update date so that other editors know what you did....and Thanks again!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I have invited another new editor Michmanliguez to join in the weekly edits, so if you both join, maybe you can talk it over and split the work up. That's what editing is all about...sharing the work and hopefully having fun! Again, welcome and happy editing!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 00:44, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted the recent edits that hide content. Per the {{hidden begin}} documentation and MOS:DONTHIDE, content shouldn't be hidden in tihs way. Also, the recent edits removed lots of footnote definitions resulting in about a dozen undefined footnote errors, and also removed coloring and formatting from many parts of the article.

If there's a concern about the article being too large, the material should be split into another article, or removed outright based on a tighter list inclusion criteria. -- Mikeblas (talk) 04:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the oversight and recommendations by Administrator Mikeblas. Yes, minor edits won't help much with page size. So I will prepare the discussed Discontinued charts page within a week or so (and again, this does not delete a lot of bytes from this page).....and also start the Global charts page and Hot Trending page, if no one else volunteers to. Again, it is left open for discussion whether the Global charts and/or Hot Trending charts should simply be reduced, by listing the top ten positions only. Another thought is to delete charts that have very few entries. Discussion?--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 04:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to continue the discussion on page size and what to do down here so it is in consecutive order. I had a thought that separating the Hot 100 to a new page might not be a bad idea, like suggested above. But how about a page with the top three or four BB charts, Hot 100, Billboard 200 and Artist 100. We can leave the title open as Top BB charts and not limit it to two or three, in case there are changes in the future. This would also allow adding the popular Social 50 chart (currently suspended) if it is reactivated.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

All the Kpop songs in english should not be here

Technically speaking, if a song is in english 100% it can't be qualified as "Kpop" 191.126.164.26 (talk) 23:21, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

This topic was discussed previously and reached no general consensus other than it needed more discussion (see topics 1-3 above and also more lengthy discussion at: Seeking consensus on inclusion of "other language" albums charted by K-pop artists. I personally think it was easier to resolve on a case-by-case basis....like talks about the group WayV, or a version of "Old Town Road", which did resolve those two issues immediately.

As a frequent editor, I tried to help resolve the inconsistencies by adding "and songs performed by K-pop artists, on the Billboard charts." to the Introduction section of each page.

And, personally due to the amount of time and work it takes to do the weekly updates, I threw my hands up in the air and mainly included all songs performed by K-pop artists, whether or not they had some English phrasing in the chorus or were mainly sung in English. Although I was generally familiar with the most popular songs, I would have had to listen each week to many new songs and make a determination. So, again, it relied on any feed-back on these Talk pages to get any songs excluded.

So, again, I think a case-by-case discussion is more appropriate. Although, my general feelings are that any song or album produced by a mainly K-pop artist, is considered K-pop in the western world, where these BB charts originated.

I know you wanted to discuss this topic (you added the discussion to the next Section that was more active), but myself, I don't have a lot of energy for it right now. But I am happy to see your interest. Maybe others can join you in the discussion again.--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 03:13, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

OK Fine See Ya 181.203.145.49 (talk) 03:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Reason for reversion

Hello, I would just like to clarify why my edit was reverted. Thank you. Summerallergies (talk) 13:47, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Peggy Gou is not K-pop

Hi User:Kpopchart, I have reverted your additions of Peggy Gou starting here: [Addition of Peggy Gou's "(It Goes Like) Nanana"]. I know we have stretched it a lot by including English language songs, etc. of known K-pop artists.....and need to discuss on a case-by-case basis. Peggy Gou's Wikipedia page does not list her music genres as K-pop. In this article she refers to her music as "K-house" [Guardian citation on Peggy Gou]. Discussion is open here. Bonnielou2013 (talk) 09:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Bonnielou2013. I agree that there is a need to discuss how far K-pop has come.

I think it is a bit difficult to communicate because english is not my first language. I think you don't know Korean very well. So I'm a little worried if you can read it below, but I'm sending you a link to an article that was recently published in a Korean newspaper. And She won the Best Dance & Electronic-Song at KMA 2020 in Korea. (KMA: Korean Music Awards)

[ Recent Article ]

1. ['힙'한 디제잉①] K-디제잉, 편견 깨고 대중화를 향해

https://news.nate.com/view/20230408n04305

2. 영국 공식 싱글 차트 진입해 주목 받는 DJ 페기 구(Peggy Gou)

https://welcon.kocca.kr/ko/info/trend/1953004

[ Previous Awards ]

ㅇ 2020 최우수 댄스&일렉트로닉-노래 수상

https://koreanmusicawards.com/project/%ED%8E%98%EA%B8%B0-%EA%B5%ACpeggy-gou-starry-night/ Kpopchart (talk) 14:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Kpopchart and thanks for replying here. I previously Welcomed you on your Talk page: User talk:Kpopchart. I have re-added Gou's song on the chart list. We can discuss further and maybe others will join us. I have not listed this as a proper Discussion, per Wikipedia rules Help:Talk pages. Others may or may not join us here. If you and I come to an agreement, and no one else comments, there is no need to.

These K-pop list pages require constant decision making and not many editors have participated. At one point an editor started adding Pinkfong's "Baby Shark" which is obviously not "K-pop", but I left it after there were not more complaints about it. I am fairly easy going. I am the one that has added most of the English language songs and the many collaborations with English language artists. As one of the few editors adding the weekly chart updates, I have to make immediate decisions. Just a few weeks ago, I did not add The Rose's "Back To Me" when they charted, although I have previously added them to the Artist 100 chart, when they charted on it. I haven't decided whether they, as a rock band, belong on the K-pop list, even though they sometimes sing in Korean. As I said, it's a case-by-case basis, and no one has commented on their addition or admission to these K-pop pages.

The Korean citations you provided for Peggy Gou say that she is a popular and awarded Korean DJ......but, I don't think she has said she is K-pop, in the strict sense of K-pop. And I agree with her. However, I edit these List pages on Wikipedia for my interest in K-pop and for fun. I am willing to leave Peggy Gou's music charting on the List. But other editors might not agree, now or in the future.

Hopefully, others will join our discussion here. Again, Welcome to Wikipedia and enjoy!--Bonnielou2013 (talk) 01:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The newspaper article I cited included the following:

https://news.nate.com/view/20230408n04305

"At the Korean Popular Music Awards (KMA, 한국대중음악상), DJ and producer 250 won four awards, including 'Record of the Year' and 'Musician of the Year'. In particular, 'Ppong(뽕)' is the first electronic genre in the history of KMA to win the 'Record of the Year'. It was a moment to confirm the great achievements he had achieved while working in various fields as a DJ.

Korea's DJ culture has developed rapidly with the rise in global popularity of Korean music, including K-pop. As the number of success stories of Korean DJs such as DJ Peggy Goo, Soda, Toki Monster, and Park Hye-jin increased, the public's understanding and acceptance of DJ culture increased, and the DJ community and cultural industry continued to grow."

For reference, 250 who composed the song Ppong(뽕)is the producer of NewJeans. And What I want to say is that I think K-디제잉(K-EDM) should be included in K-pop, just like Pinkfong or trot singer Lim Young-woong. The debate about whether K-pop is a genre or an industry is still going on, and I understand what you said. Kpopchart (talk) 04:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

In summary, K-pop centered on idols is known to be mainly characterized by group dances (aka 칼군무) and stage performances so far, so it can be regarded as a genre. In a broader perspective, I think Korean popular music (literally K-pop) should also include trot, K-디제잉(K-EDM) and K-Hip hop. However I'm not a K-pop expert, so I can fully agree with someone else's opinion. Kpopchart (talk) 06:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

In addition, that Korean citation for Peggy Gou awarded the Best Dance & Electronic-Song at KMA 2020 say that

https://koreanmusicawards.com/project/%ED%8E%98%EA%B8%B0-%EA%B5%ACpeggy-gou-starry-night/

"The single 'Starry Night' released in 2019 by Peggy Gou is a song that reveals the experience and skill of a DJ mixing music while interacting with the audience on the dance floor. Given that dance music has its origins in parties, Peggy Gou has combined Korean with sounds that evoke the golden age of house music 20 years ago to complete a track for the hippest parties in the world." Kpopchart (talk) 05:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)