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Formatting

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I think it's just my computer, but is the table for season one actually beneath the reference list? Kevinbrogers (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind.Kevinbrogers (talk) 02:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Debate over Formatting

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I noticed there's some craziness going on on this page. I don't know if there's a set way to do the formatting, but I'm going to try to explain my opinion: A sub-heading should be used for the seasons, with a bigger heading for every season: ==Episode List== ===Season One=== ===Season Two=== Etc., especially after the first season. I say to do this, in case there are any webisodes or related media, so that they can be added under their own main heading at the bottom. With the Series Overview, References, External Links, and all the other stuff, I think each season should be a sub-heading. Kevinbrogers (talk) 16:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Rosieland. Rosie1989 is a German-speaking editor who edits episode lists almost exclusively. She was banned from the German Wikipedia for what I gather (I don't read German) is problematic editing, and writes very little English. She has issues with a "my way or the highway" editorial style, 3RR vios and a lack of edit summaries (or occasionally intemperate ones, when she tries to write one.) She was blocked once here, and was being monitored by an admin, although that seems to have ended. She's doing better now, but backslides at times. I usually can keep her under a small measure of control with occasionally mixed results because I explain things to her on her talk page. Drmargi (talk) 18:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. I've noticed a lot of edits by her lately on USA Network shows, and they all, for the most part, seemed pretty good to me. Hopefully it'll get better. Kevinbrogers (talk) 18:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the time, she's done pretty well since the block, but the old impulses seem to pop up occasionally. A simply worded comment on her talk page helps a lot. Drmargi (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Restore original format

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This article is a classic example of a episode list article that was split far too fast. It also contains formatting errors resulting from an incorrect split. The Season 1 article's insubstantial content could be included, in totality, in this one, and this article is far, far to short to meet the standard for splitting. As with the recent restoration of List of In Plain Sight episodes, I am requesting this article and the Season One article be merged, until this article is of sufficient length to merit a split. Drmargi (talk) 12:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I said on the List of In Plain Sight episodes debate, I would like to jump the gun and start making articles for every little thing; I love lists. But, based off of the guidelines of Wikipedia and rational thinking, I agree, the Season One article should be merged. There is nothing on the entire article that can't be found on this one or the main one, except for the episode descriptions. So, until sufficient time has been given (probably 4 or 5 seasons), I agree with merge. Kevinbrogers (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is now a season two article. What I said above goes for it too: merge, and possibly recreate at a more suitable time. Kevinbrogers (talk) 03:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've merged in the information from the season 1 article.The season 2 article contained a list of episodes that were uncited so there was no point merging this. A number of corrections were made in doing all this and I've added some general references to the article as well. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Some editors seem to like to trust spoiler sites for titles, so it's probably just as well to wait on the redirect until the S2 list is started in this article, using reliable sources. Drmargi (talk) 15:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would be the best thing to do, since all future episode information requires citations from reliable sources. Next? --AussieLegend (talk) 15:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Outstanding job! Next on the list: Royal Pains. Drmargi (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hiatus until January.

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Why do networks try to drive away viewers with these long hiatus breaks? Bizzybody (talk) 04:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A rhetorical question? Can we follow the money? -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Use of No and #

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Where is this coming from? No and # mean the same thing -- number -- and do absolutely nothing to differentiate the two columns they label. I've restored the labels that actually differentiate the two columns and inform the reader. Otherwise the reader is left with two columns both topped with two variations on the same label that are in now way intuitive. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform, not confuse, and all these labels do is the latter. Drmargi (talk) 18:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Series #" and "Season #" make no sense, series would be 1 everywhere since this is one and the same series, and season would be 1 for season 1, 2 for 2 and 3 for 3. I've only seen problems with the over-explaining headers, they are as unclear as can be and on various occasions I've seen Ip's passing by changing the season number to the same number because it is entirely unclear. I've only once seen someone ask a question about the simplified headers and that was on a season 1 article were the columns had (obviously) the same number. A classic case of trying to over-explain things and in the process make it as unclear as can be. Xeworlebi (talk) 18:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't argue that they're not the best, but they make a heck of a lot more sense than what is effectively "number" and "number". At least you can read the headings, look at the tables and figure it out. Number and number tell you nothing. Hopefully come clever soul can find a third option that better solves the problem. In the meantime, the more detailed labels are a vastly more informative option. Drmargi (talk) 18:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Except they only cause more confusion, and if you can figure the naming of "Series #" and "Season #" out you would have no problem with figuring out № and #. Xeworlebi (talk) 19:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree that they cause more confusion -- what could be more confusing that two columns with the same label and nothing to differentiate them? Moreover, I think we need to err on the side of more, not less, information. Putting the same label on two columns tells you nothing, and actually suggests the two columns include the same information. There's no scenario I can imagine where that works. The stray IP changing the column is a minor problem, and can be handled with a hidden note. Drmargi (talk) 19:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don't agree that people are so confused that they actually (as in the fact that this has happened multiple times before) change the content of the columns because they make so little sense? You mean the notes you removed? And they don't not have the same label, in fact series/season can be taken as the same. Actually now you mention it, for British readers series/season adds yet another layer of confusion. While it may take some a second look to get the difference between the columns, "Series #" and "Season #" does in no way help someone, and only creates more ways for people to misinterpret it, change it or come ask on the talk page why the page makes no sense. Xeworlebi (talk) 19:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For me, both the No./# and Series #/Season # labeling systems make equal sense. If the No./# system is used, I think readers will be able to figure it out. The best thing I can come up with would be # in series/# in season, though that might take up a lot of space. What does everyone else think? Kevinbrogers (talk) 19:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in complete agreement with Drmargi that №/# is redundant; as symbols, they mean the exact same thing, requiring a liner explanation to decide what № means and what # means, and I've seen too many instances myself where people don't read the whole article to learn the relevance of certain information, and change the data in the one spot they're looking. Troublesome as it has been to find a way to do so, the information should be accessable in the table column to aleviate any confusion for the casual reader. As the main confusion seems to be, as Xeworlebi pointed out, people thinking that "Season #" means which season that episode is in, perhaps just adding the season #, so the table reads Season 1 #/Series #, Season 2 #/Series # would be of help. We could even consider just changing the second from "series" to "show" to avoid the UK confusion (though I imagine that idea meeting with more resistance). Thoughts? KnownAlias contact 22:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We also have to factor in that we know what those labels represent. For an outsider, the average reader, we can't make that assumption. I just can't imagine a scenario where the same label, side by side, formatted differently (and mind, use of those two labels is comparable to putting # in two different fonts) somehow gives them differing meanings. It's absurd, and no MOS in the world that I've worked with (and there have been quite a few) would find it remotely acceptable. Yes, the hidden labels need to be restored. So fine, let's do that. I find the confusion for the British a small concern; they're as familiar with the American "season" system as we are with their "series" system. We've used season in the narrative above, to provide any needed clarity. That said, I do like the Series #/Season 1 # as a solution to the IP issue. Drmargi (talk) 22:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That still makes no sense whatsoever, I can already see people wondering what "show #" means, and changing the entire episode list to 1 because its the same show. "Season 1 #"? that would be 1, every time… While we're basically treating readers like they're dumb and can't figure anything out (sure that's not your intent, but that's what it sounds like), why do we assume people even understand what "#" means? Explaining this in the header is entirely redundant, however you formulate it it remains ambiguous to the silly level. By the time something is formulated that actually informs without "any confusion for the casual reader" you'll need an extra table to put it in. I'm not sure why a number that goes up every episode is so confusing to the average reader, of course when you start placing confusing and ambiguous headers to it, I start to understand why you guys think the casual reader doesn't get it anymore. Xeworlebi (talk) 23:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think they don't get it anymore every time I revert a single column of "1"'s. As much credit as you want to give people, this is an ongoing problem. And for what it's worth, I merely suggested the "show" resolution; I also agree with Drmargi that it's not a major concern the way the other issue is, and place no value myself on it's use. KnownAlias contact 23:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A proposed solution has been implemented at List of Rizzoli & Isles episodes that, I think, addresses all concerns here and here (though, credit where it's due, a quick re-read of this page shows Kevinbrogers came up with it first...great minds think alike). KnownAlias contact 11:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm following that article now, and will watch the response to your solution with interest. Kevinbrogers has a lot of work invested in this article as well as Rizzoli and Isles, as do you, and I appreciate the problem-solving you're both doing. Once we see how your solution is accepted at R&I, we can revisit here and with Covert Affairs. Drmargi (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Season 3 Episode 10

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(SPOILER)

In the episode synopsis, it says "Later, Peter returns home to discover that Elizabeth has been kidnapped by Matthew Keller."

There is -no- kidnapping at all in this episode; at the end of the show, Elizabeth is at home with Peter, with him telling her about the bounty on Keller's head. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.37.254 (talk) 20:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That was episode 9, not 10. Kevinbrogers (talk) 21:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, you are quite correct. Please disregard this. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.37.254 (talk) 21:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Burmese soil

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I see quite the little edit war has broken out over the use of the term "Burmese soil" in the summary of a White Collar episode. While I see that the editor who wrote it was trying to say, I think he/she might also have been a bit slavishly adhering to the language used in the preview for that particular episode. How important to understanding the episode is knowing they were on Burmese territory, much less that we use the term Burmese soil? This level of precision in an edit summary that it otherwise very vague makes little sense to me.

This discussion should have been opened some while ago, and I'm hoping by doing it now, we can head off any further edit warring and 3RR violations. --Drmargi (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the way it is now: "must set foot on Burmese soil when they visit its embassy." The original edit that drew my attention to this removed the section entirely, which I don't think should have been done. The way it is written now (I think) should satisfy everyone; it keeps the part about Peter and Neal technically leaving New York while explaining the way this is done. Ideally, though, I agree with the note Drmargi left at my page; these summaries are quite vague. Most of those that I've written were done before the episode was shown, using what little information was available, and while a few have been rewritten to reflect the entire episode, most have not. I agree that most should be rewritten to reflect the quality of the longer ones, such as (in my opinion) "Pilot", "Hard Sell" (possibly), "Out of the Box", "Unfinished Business", "In the Red", and "Judgment Day". Kevinbrogers (talk) 04:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Season pages

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I think we should split up each season page. 68.44.179.54 (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Usually this isn't done until much later. If I had to guess, I'd say about the end of season 5 at least. However, I would argue that it would be acceptable if enough outside season-specific information is added (such as sections on casting, reviews, production, etc.). Parks and Recreation (season 1) and The Office (U.S. season 1) are great examples of this. Kevinbrogers (talk) 20:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
AussieLegend describes WP:SIZERULE well at Talk:List of In Plain Sight episodes#Restoration of original lists article when a similar discussion was going on there. This article is around 51kb, which WP:SIZERULE says "may need to be divided." However, it also says that length does not alone justify division. I'd say maybe around the end of season 4 or when the text hits 75-80kb. Of course, if a substantial amount of information can be added about production (as I said above), I'd be up for a split. Kevinbrogers (talk) 21:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of reviews and critical acclaim for this show. Plus, there were cast changes. It needs to be split up. 68.44.51.49 (talk) 17:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cast changes and critical opinion are not reasons to split an episode page into separate articles. It is no where near large enough to do so (far less than 51K of readable prose, given the amount of formatting adding to the overall size), and there is no evidence of enough substantive content for individual articles to create season pages. Please do not restore the split tag again. --Drmargi (talk) 12:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about we try splitting the pages up after the summer half of season 4 airs? 68.44.51.49 (talk) 11:34, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now that White Collar was renewed, we need the pages as soon as possible. 68.44.51.49 (talk) 19:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Why split the seasons when you can just scroll down? Keep it all together. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:15, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, I see no good reason to split the article into seasonal articles other than WP:LEMMING. We don't "need" separate season articles at all, much less as soon as possible. Why bother, except so someone gets to make the split, decorate the article to match the DVD box, then swan off leaving articles with no content that wasn't already in this article. --Drmargi (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:32, 12 December 2014 (UTC) -- Keep together.[reply]
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