Talk:List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests

split execution

@Ham II: thanks for executing that split! the name changes page looks a lot better because of it, and i like the organization used on this page as well.

i am a bit confused about your choice of including brands on this page, and how that was executed. i had previously assumed that brands were names, so that brand changes were simply a subset of name changes. however, the wikipedia article on brands currently states that "A brand is a name, term, design, symbol or any other feature that identifies one seller's good or service as distinct from those of other sellers", so under that definition of brand, i was incorrect in my assumption, and it appears that brand changes and name changes may be overlapping sets, but neither is a subset of the other.

how do you propose that brand changes be split between the two pages? i would currently propose that all brand changes that were name changes be included on the name changes page (as they are name changes), and may also be either included on this page as well (as they are changes) or simply referenced by a link to the name changes page. i was trying to understand the reasoning behind your split, but am unclear as to why some brand changes that appear to be name changes, such as uncle ben's and eskimo pie, were moved to this list, while others, such as aunt jemima and slaves, remained on the name changes list.

also, i was staring at the mascots section days ago trying to figure out how to make the name column not look as clunky, and can't believe the solution you found was so simple: just move the school name to a new column. i'm literally sitting here laughing at myself with a tear coming out of my eye. i don't know what i was thinking. dying (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Dying: Thanks for the kind words! My thinking was that brands which change their imagery but not their names would go in this list. According to the sources cited in the lists, Aunt Jemima will be changing its name (1), whereas Uncle Ben's has said that it will "evolve" its brand (2), Mrs. Butterworth's is having a "complete brand and packaging review" (3) and Cream of Wheat's packaging is similarly under review (4). Putting Eskimo Pies here was an oversight, as they're "vowing" to change their name (5), so I'll move that entry back. To be honest it hadn't occurred to me that bands could be considered brands, but that's academic because all the bands listed are changing their names.

It is unfortunate that this splits products across two lists, and I'm inclined to get around that problem by using a hatnote to direct readers to the list of name changes – something like For brands that are changing their names as well as their imagery, see List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests § Brands. However, such a section doesn't exist yet because the brands/products (I'm not attached to the choice of term) are split across sections for different countries. How would you feel if the ordering of the name changes list were changed so that it's by type (and then perhaps by country)? It's already being done that way here and on the monuments and memorials list. Ham II (talk) 14:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

oh, i see now! for some reason, i had erroneously believed that uncle ben's was changing its name too. that mistake, coupled with the accidental moving of eskimo pies to this article, was what caused me to be so confused. that's hilarious.

anyway, it seems our thoughts on how to split the brands sound identical: it is unfortunate that they end up being split across two lists, but it seems best to have the brands with name changes on the name changes page, and a hatnote might perform some sort of remedy.

also, i'm glad that you brought up sorting the name changes page by type first rather than by country. it was actually the last major structural change i was thinking of implementing, but ended up not doing so because i was worried that it might have been too bold or too controversial. the only reason why they are currently sorted by country first is because the entries were taken straight from the monuments page, where it was first sorted under the "Names and nomenclature" type and then sorted by country. once the data was moved to the new page, the top-level categorization was removed, so categorization by country became the top-level categorization. anyway, i'll carry out that restructuring after posting this.

that being said, i am unsure if it makes sense to have a section named "Brands" on the name changes page, since it could include entries that are currently spread out over different sections. for example, it's difficult to argue that the renaming of princeton's school of public and international affairs was not a brand change, and pretend that the ivory tower doesn't have a public relations department, so that and similar entries could fall under "Brands".

however, i noticed that, at least as of this writing, the only brands listed on this article are industrial brands. would it be easier to rename the section here to "Industrial brands" or something similar, and have the hatnote then point to the industry section of the name changes page? they all also happen to be food brands too, so naming the section "Food brands" or "Food products" could work as well.

by the way, what are your thoughts on splitting the sections by country? i was thinking of combining all the entries of one type into the same table instead of making a distinct table per country. it seems like you've avoided splitting the tables by country, since your table under "Removal of physical flags" has entries from at least three countries. dying (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Well it HAS expanded beyond the USA quite a bit, so maybe divisions by country don't make as much sense as they did in the beginning (with List of monuments and memorials removed during the George Floyd protests‎‎). Normal Op (talk) 20:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Dying: I'd be happy if "Brands" were changed to "Products"; I'd prefer it not to be "Food products" as I think that Fair & Lovely (cosmetics) should be included (on the page for name changes, that is).

I think that combining the tables for different countries on the name changes list was an improvement, so thanks for doing that. However, I don't think that the dedicated sortable columns for US states, while non-US locations span two columns, make sense now. Ham II (talk) 08:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ham II: you're right; fairglow & lovely is not a food product (as least as far as i know). also, i worry if the word "product" could also end up encompassing too much, as its wikipedia page currently states that "[i]n marketing, a product is an object or system made available for consumer use; it is anything that can be offered to a market to satisfy the desire or need of a customer". so, using that word without qualification may result in many other entries falling under its umbrella unintentionally.

anyway, i'm not sure what the best plan of action is regarding naming the sections, either on this page or the name changes page, but i also don't see any major issues with just keeping the names as is and not worrying about the sections not being named similarly on both pages, since it looks like the range of entries on the two pages don't really match each other well anyway. for example, a decent number of television episodes are being pulled, but virtually none are being renamed, while a decent number of schools are being renamed, but not a lot are experiencing a lot of other noteworthy changes.

also, regarding the merging of tables of different countries, i agree that the format is a bit unusual. admittedly, it has its faults, but the two most obvious alternatives that came to me at the time both seemed to be worse.

• i could have simply left out the state column. however, that would have meant that users could not sort entries by state, users could confuse a city in one state with a similarly-named city in a different state, and users who were unfamiliar with a city would not be able to get a general idea of its location by knowing what state it was in.
• i also could have changed the state column to a first-level administrative division column. however, i was worried about feature creep; unsure if users cared to use some form of standardization such as iso 3166-2 when adding entries; and unsure if the additional information would be helpful anyway or end up causing more confusion, since, for example, "OTA" doesn't really mean anything to users unfamiliar with where dunedin is, and "WA" could refer to western australia or washington, which would mean that entries in both areas would be sorted together if a user sorted by first-level administrative division.

• @Dying: - Wikipedia is not supposed to be US-centric, and there are a lot of federated countries in the world with states, so in my view it would be appropriate to include the state somewhere if you can. However, given that the Floyd protests originated in the US, I'd be comfortable with a separate table for non-US changes made, though. Deus et lex (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

upon further reflection, i can think of two other reasonable alternatives.

• we could leave the state column in for all entries, which would solve the problem of colorado sorting between bristol and plymouth. however, i don't think that's a significant problem; the extra space is useful for lengthy entries like western australia; and if we left a cell blank, users may end up filling the blank with iso 3166-2 codes anyway.
• we could just replace both the state and country columns with full iso 3166-2 codes, such as "US-WA" and "AU-WA". however, it might be unnecessarily technical, and i'm not sure if i want to get into a discussion regarding whether to use "GB-LND", "GB-ENG", "GB-EAW", "GB-GBN", "GB-UKM", "UK-LND", "UK-ENG", "UK-EAW", "UK-GBN", or "UK-UKM" for the london entries.

anyway, this is just my reasoning for why i chose the implementation that i did. happy to hear any additional thoughts or suggestions on the matter. dying (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Dying, for solving the sort problem it's best to leave "state" blank for non-USA countries, rather than using colspan=2. That way, when sorting on the state column, all the non-USA countries will be clumped together at the top or bottom of the list (rather than being inserted mid-sort like they are now). There is no downside to seeing a blank cell for "state" in a non-USA country. And after all, this page is related to protested that started in the USA and are mainly continuing there; it would not be odd to expect the majority of entries to have states. Normal Op (talk) 17:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with dying that having a blank "State" fields for places outside the US would tempt users to fill it in with first-level administrative divisions (if that's the term), and we'd be back with mixed-up sorting. I strongly believe that we should keep things simple and that there should just be two columns for places: "Location" (in most cases a city or town) and "Country". US states should be included, but as part of the name in the "Location" field: [[Berkeley, California]], [[Denver]], Colorado (unless the city's name includes that of the state: [[New York City]]). This would be treating countries more consistently, in my opinion.

@Dying: As far as the "Products"/"Brands" section is concerned, can you think of an example of something inappropriate that could be added if it were titled "Products"? Ham II (talk) 07:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ham II: i think your proposal is a decent compromise. after posting my previous comment, i had thought of a similar possibility, but had not gone so far as to think about simply omitting the state if it was obvious from the location name. i think that's a good idea. unfortunately, it does drop the ability to sort by state, but i am not sure if my consideration for that option had placed too much weight on what i thought american users may have wanted.

also, what are your thoughts about having the readable text for your example location being "Berkeley (California)" instead of "Berkeley, California"? the latter would have cleaner code, but the former makes it clearer that the first-level administrative division does not have to be added if it is obvious otherwise. also, this way, people would not be populating cells with "London, England" to attempt to be consistent, and populating cells with "London (England)" seems absurd. i have no strong feelings regarding which solution should end up being implemented, so am inclined to implement yours if you feel strongly about it.

by the way, the term "first-level administrative division" is used in the last paragraph of the lead in the administrative division article. "first administrative level" is used as well. i'm not attached to either term, though, and won't mind using any other suggestions.

regarding "products", looking at the sections currently on the page, i think the games section would solidly fall into that category, and possibly the movies and television sections as well. i don't know if their inclusion would be inappropriate; i only raise the issue in case their inclusion would be unintended.

@Deus et lex: i agree that wikipedia should not be centered around the united states, which is why, when i merged the tables, i had not left the incidents in the united states in their own table. however, omitting american states also seemed to be a form of willful blindness to the fact that many incidents took place in the united states and users may have wished to sort by american state. admittedly, i don't know if placing such weight on keeping the ability to sort by state was warranted. what are your thoughts on Ham II's suggestion? dying (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dying: @Ham II: - thank you for your reply and your thoughtfulness around this table. The discussion above between you both is quite lengthy so I'm a bit lost on what exactly is proposed - can you point me to the proposal or summarise for me how you propose to deal with the non-US states? Thanks very much in advance. Deus et lex (talk) 07:54, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Deus et lex: sorry about all the text! the state column would be removed for all entries. in addition, for all entries, a first-level administrative division could be added in parentheses if appropriate. there is no special treatment for american entries.

for example, kimberley could be listed as "Kimberley (Western Australia)"; new york city as "New York City"; kansas city, kansas as "Kansas City (Kansas)"; kansas city, missouri as "Kansas City (Missouri)"; swansea as "Swansea (Wales)"; and london as "London".

i do not wish to misrepresent Ham II, so i should clarify that Ham II's proposal uses commas instead of parentheses (e.g., uses "Kansas City, Missouri" instead of "Kansas City (Missouri)"), and omits the state if it is in the city name (e.g., uses "Kansas City" instead of "Kansas City (Kansas)" and "Los Angeles, California" instead of either "Los Angeles" or "Los Angeles (California)"). i am happy with Ham II's proposal, but suggested the alterations in case they were useful. dying (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dying: My preference would still be for Berkeley, California over Berkeley (California), so that we're not introducing an unfamiliar naming convention when the relevant article is titled Berkeley, California. To me that also feels slightly closer to writing conventions for prose, and therefore slightly easier to read. I realise that there's also Kimberley (Western Australia), but I'd still argue for Kimberley, Western Australia fo the sake of internal consistency in the article.

I don't mind whether it's formatted [[Berkeley, California]], [[Berkeley, California|Berkeley]], California or [[Berkeley, California|Berkeley]], [[California]], but the first is the simplest.

I've also just had to add China (Hong Kong) in the "Country" field in the section currently titled "Brands" on this list, so in my opinion it would be best to reserve brackets for special cases like that where (e.g.) part of a country has to be specified.

As for the "Products" issue, "Games" could easily be a subsection, but I'm not sure about the "Films" and "Television" sections. I'm happy to split rather than lump and have "Food products", "Cosmetics", "Music", etc. Ham II (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ham II:, @Dying: are you guys talking about THIS page? Or List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests? I'm thinking the latter; in which case this discussion should be over on that Talk Page at this point. And if so, I feel very strongly that we should NOT remove the sortable state column to accommodate out-of-USA locations. Just because English Wikipedia is supposed to encompass all of the English-speaking world, and articles should be written to be inclusive of world views or world locations, does NOT mean that a predominantly USA-based subject matter needs to LOSE a typical construct (such as state) because there are a few entries from other countries. Like I said before, there are ways around this. Specifically, use a state for EVERY row entry and leave blank for non-USA countries. UK doesn't ordinarily use their "counties" when mentioning a location. Australia often does, but there is only a single entry in the tables where an Australian state would be used. Why change how every other USA-based table is constructed because of one entry? I don't even know why this is an issue. If you insist on omitting a column for state, and using only a city-and-state together, then you must go back to using data-sort-value parameters for each city cell, such as |data-sort-value=CA Los Angeles, where you put the two-initials state designations BEFORE the city name. That way, when you sort on the city column, you effectively get a sort by US-state as well. And then you're back to the maintenance problem of "Does the average wiki editor know to use data-sort-value parameters?" versus "Will a future wiki editor push non-essential state-level names into blank cells for non-USA countries and mess up our sorting again?" Normal Op (talk) 17:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've tried something different over at List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests: kept a "US state" column (not for Australian or German states), but filled that column with {{N/A}} for all locations outside the US. Ham II (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ham II:I approve!!!! Looks great. Sorts perfectly. Even has a gray-color for the N/A cells. Perfect! I think you've solved the problem. Normal Op (talk) 20:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Notes

Title needs to be changed

It can't be "Changes made". It has to be "Changes in something made". deisenbe (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Jamaica Royal Insignia

[1] The Jamaican Governor-general recently announced he will not wear a piece of royal insignia depicting a white Archangel Michael standing over a black Satan; the governor-general specifically cited the mass movement against degrading images as the reason behind the decision. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Believe this is the Order of St Michael and St George. gobonobo ^{+ c} 03:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Walmart

Not sure if you want this for the new "Employment practices" section or not. Maybe even create a section for "philanthropy" because I'll bet there will be more multi-million dollar donations made in 2020 to help racial inequalities.

• Walmart Pledges $100 Million Toward Achieving Racial Equity — Here’s Where the Money Is Going (MSN)
• Making a Difference in Racial Equity: Walmart CEO Doug McMillon’s Full Remarks (Walmart Corporate)

There's a mention about hiring practices in the first link. Normal Op (talk) 18:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

kennesaw entry under removal of physical flags

this is a really technical point, but regarding the confederate battle flag that flew at kennesaw's memorial park, apparently "someone cut the rope and took the flag, prior to recent protests in Kennesaw". if this is true, then it might not be appropriate to list it under "Removal of physical flags", even though the entry itself is still appropriate for the page because a different flag flies on that pole now, meaning that a change was made. i don't know what should be done to the article to address this, if anything, but thought i might bring it up in case it was of interest. dying (talk) 18:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Proposal for "other changes" section

I think that we should have an "other changes" section containing miscellany that doesn't fit in the other sections. So far, I believe that two additions would fall under this section:

• The removal of references to the Robert E. Lee tree on the Seqoia and Kings Canyon National Parks websites (official renaming requires consent of Congress; its still up in the air what will happen with a physical sign).[2]
• The Jamaica Royal Insignia [[3]

Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:10, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Having a catch-all is often a good idea. Go fer it. You can always delete it later if you don't like it. Normal Op (talk) 07:26, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I've added in an "Other changes" section containing the two entries I listed above. I don't have any objections if anyone wants to improve the table; the current one is just a rough attempt to get the important information listed. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:45, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Should we put this in under games?

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/games/news/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-ok-gesture-emote-racism-cod-a9607546.html its not strictly confirmed but its pretty obvious this is the reasoning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.107.172.175 (talk) 03:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Just noting that they've also added pro-Black Lives Matter messages in-game [4]. Infinity Ward has also vowed to crack down on racism in Modern Warfare complete with concrete steps [5]. While they haven't commented specifically on the ok symbol removal, this rather plainly fits within their larger-scope changes which have been firmly linked with the Floyd protests. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Master Terminology

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/realtors-master-bedroom-bathroom-terminology/ https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/

is this appropriate for this article?

I'd recommend adding this to the List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests rather than this specific article. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Morris Dancing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/03/morris-dancing-groups-ban-blackening-faces/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.107.172.172 (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Gettysburg Confederate battlefield memorials getting panels

The panels, which should be up by September, will provide the historical/race-related context of the Confederate battlefield memorials [6]. I’m planning on adding this to the monuments and memorials section when I get the chance (since nothing is actually getting removed, this is the most appropriate page). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 17:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Spirit of Eagle: Cool, thanks. Is there a source that isn't a paywall so that anyone could ever read it? — Smuckola(talk) 03:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Smuckola:Here's the Wayback Machine archival scan [7]. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Lion Attacking a Dromedary

Lion Attacking a Dromedary was removed from display this July due to the Black Lives Matter movement.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:24, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Aqua Teen Hunger Force and The Boondocks

See https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/adult-swim-episodes-retired-cultural-sensitivities-1234786221/. 09:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Apparently, According to TV Tropes, Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood recasted a black character

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DistancedFromCurrentEvents#edit28292191 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.83.211 (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

The Disney character Jose Carioca (and other non white roles from him) might be a case

https://tv.avclub.com/voice-actor-rob-paulsen-says-he-won-t-play-a-character-1844183726 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.83.211 (talk) 00:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

can someone smarter than me add this?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/mands-apologises-for-racist-bra-colour-names/ar-BB17UR4U — Preceding unsigned comment added by 999ThingsToFix (talk • contribs) 06:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Can somebody add the Wiggles to the list

Here's a source: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/four-new-members-to-join-the-wiggles-in-a-nod-to-cultural-and-gender-diversity/news-story/f801d35cb3ee00f5fd60eff67fb485b3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.234.160.107 (talk) 23:44, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Voice acting changes in video games

Think anyone can make a section about changes for voice casting in video games? 141.239.235.96 (talk) 06:16, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Voice actor recasts post-2021-ish

They really should just count for their own article, shouldn't they? I don't think Leo Wong from Futurama really counts because the reason isn't directly because of the protests, but because of a domino effect of changes in voice casting in the industry, which really hasn't got started with the protests, but only had a surplus in this, it's largely first started by The Problem with Apu fallout and stuff. It's like if an animated show that debuted in 1996 and got cancelled in 2003 but got rebooted in 2035 had, say, a Vietnamese-American character recast from a white guy to an Asian guy, then by this point, it'd be completely normal for old cartoons for go through that treatment, with the George Floyd protests long in the past.

And the Mortal Kombat stuff shouldn't technically count, because it was basically a creative decision for Mortal Kombat 1 in 2023, in which Mortal Kombat has had games in-between the span of the protests and MK1.

I think they should be made into a new article, List of white voice actors who were recasted with minority voice actors or something along the lines of that. Maddox121 ForgotHisPassword (talk) 15:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah no. HARDLY disagree with this. 141.239.235.96 (talk) 04:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Well guess what buddy boy, I got around making a section on the page and it's now on voice-acting. KillerFrostyShake (talk) 03:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Quest for Balance

If I'm gonna be frank, most of the cast in the original Avatar: The Last Airbender series are Asian, only certain ones that are recast in Quest for Balance. 141.239.235.96 (talk) 01:16, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Taken care of. KillerFrostyShake (talk) 21:59, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Serious WP:OR Violations

I've just stumbled across this article and I'm going to be making substantial attempts to clean up. At present entire sections are a gross violation of WP:OR, assigning causation to the George Floyd protests when none is demonstrated in any source. Simply because recasts took place post-2020 isn't evidence they're linked. Do not re-add material removed unless you can establish a source detailing a link to George Floyd. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

All the recasts that are listed are related to the protests because of the changes the voice acting industry made to have caucasian actors no longer voice characters of different ethnic backgrounds. KillerFrostyShake (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That has not been demonstrated in any of the sources, which I went through one by one. Some claims didn't have any sources whatsoever. If you can show reliable sources making the direct link (not what you believe the link to be) then they can be added back case by case, as per WP:BURDEN it is on you as the one who wants to include the content to demonstrate verification that the changes were made due to the George Floyd protests.

As can be demonstrated by items such as The_Problem_with_Apu, the issue of non-ethnic casting in voice roles predates the George Floyd protests, so simply deciding it's because of these protests (especially when happening years later or involving projects with substantial time between airing runs) is simply Original Research to claim they're down to the protests. Rambling Rambler (talk) 21:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)