Talk:List of transgender characters in film

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Cross-dressing vs transgender

Cross-dressing and transgender aren't the same subject at all. This list should be clearer. -Branddobbe 02:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually they are, or at least closer than either are to transsexuals. Transsexuals need to get surgery to stop being TSs and fit into the cisgendered society they crave in the depths of their souls. TGs/CDs do not generally get the surgery (or not for the intended reasons). TGs are mostly men who dress or live as women to varying degrees, and is also a political grouping for all gender-variant persons. Genuine TSs are really not gender variant, but gender conformists, and they get the surgery to correct what they feel is a birth condition and to live a non-LGBT, non-TG life. So it is dishonest to call TSs a type of TG or other LGBT (unless they are after correcting TSism, which is a whole other matter). I came here because the movie Normal was placed as a Transgender movie, not a Transsexual movie. It would be nice to have a TS-themed only movie list that is not about TGism nor other gender queerness. (If the main character gets or seeks legitimate surgery, it is a TS movie. If it is about dressing up, sexual activity (while non-op), a victim mindset, or LGBTs, then it would be more of a TG movie.) Normal (2003) is about a mainstream woman born wrongly with male parts, not a queer (non-offensive, reclaimed usage) man crudely attempting to be a woman and keeping his treasured "jewels" that very few self-respecting men would give up for reasons not related to cancer or medical emergency (testicular torsion and the resulting gangrene).

If others want to know more about transsexual mainstreamists (not separatists as various TG advocates claim), you might want to check a blog like Purple Speaks or a site like TS-Si. I know blogs are not usually encyclopedic sources, but the ideas espoused are shared by quite a lot of people, but not as many as those who oppose in the TG lumping camp. Most transsexuals didn't ask to be lumped under the LGBT nor TG umbrella, and nobody asked for permission to represent them nor speak for them. The problem is when TGs talk themselves into surgery and then live in denial. Rather than admit error, their pride causes them to try to change society to make themselves seen normal. A genuine TS would not have to do that, since their nature was born close to what they were trying to transition to - they transition to stop being TSs. Maybe I said too much, since this is obviously the wrong place for in depth discussion on this.66.110.251.145 (talk) 20:03, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually the above quote is a minority opinion at least in the UK, and the neutrality I think is disputable and obvious if anyone marginally informed reads it. A better source would be an advocacy group (not a blog that just works as an echochamber) and by far the largest in my country is the http://www.scottishtrans.org/ who have argued legislatively that accepting Trans-Seperativists narratives is hampering Trans individuals being able to transition; including Transsexuals that 'mainstreamists' allegedly advocate for, and run support groups for only it's a set up to bully people and harass them if they don't fall 100% in-line with their own perceptions of how a Trans person should be. I don't think supporting a false dichotomy is going to do this article any favours but on a more serious note: most of these entries are frankly shit with how Trans people are presented and/or have been controversial; yes a Trans Woman was in an entry but so was a five minute cue of a dog vomitting after he learned that he slept with someone that wasn't cis. There are bigger issues than arguing over outdated terminology from the 80s with this article. Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.122.113 (talk) 05:01, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The above from 66.110.251.145 is also a minority opinion in the US, wherein folks who talk like that are often referred to as "transer than thou," "Harry Benjamins" or "HBSers" (as they often claim to have "Harry Benjamin Syndrome") or "TrueScum" and are known for being incredibly unkind toward trans people who for one reason or another choose not to medically transition, or not to medically transition "completely." There is a cost/benefit analysis involved in medical transition, and for some people it comes out where some or all forms of medical transition are not right for them. The HBSers would have you believe that they are cis people with "normal" cis minds in the wrong body and non-HSB trans people are "queers." Well 66.110.251.145, you can't use "queer" in the reclaimed sense unless you ARE queer, which I get the picture you're not. Calling those who don't choose medical transition "queer men" is... well it's pretty hardcore uncool. Firstly, the ones you're talking about are not men. They are women. Trans women are women. Secondly, you forgot all about the trans men to focus on the wrongness of transgender women, so... you got some pretty hardcore transmisogyny going on. I'm not even going to get on to non-binary genders with an HSBer. The point is that medical transition isn't a requirement for being a "true" trans person.

Branddobbe is flat out right. Cross Dressers like Ed Wood (no matter how cool he is) do not belong on a list of TransGENDER characters. If the main character identifies as a gender other than their assigned gender, (Most of these movies) then it's a TS/TG movie. If it is about dressing up while still identifying as your assigned gender, (Hi Ed, Hi Divine,) it's a cross dresser movie. 138.69.160.1 (talk) 21:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Transvestite

I disagree that Dil in the Crying Game is a transvestite. Transvestism is usually the province of fetishistic biological males, but Dil clearly identifies as a woman. "Drag queen" might be more neutral, as she is manifestly so. Jiawen 06:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Cross-dresser is the non-loaded term for those who merely dress up on occasion. Transgenderists identify more between the genders, though they usually have a preference. Transvestism was simply a term to denote cross-dressing, but as it became a clinical term, it picked up a negative connotation. Drag queen can be considered offensive when used to describe people who are not "show girls" (think Ru Paul or Jeffree Star). It carries the connotation of being an impersonator/actor, and their style of dress is campy or ostentatious. Calling a transsexual person a drag queen can be taken as an insult, as it trivializes who they are. They are not out trying to fool the public nor put on a show. A transsexual's identity is real, not an act nor a game, and not for money. Transsexuals are not flamboyant or campy. TG tends to include everyone (except TSs by the modified new usage of the term TG). Speaking of terminology, "sexually motivated" is preferable to "perverted" because it speaks to motives without judgment. He-she is generally not appropriate unless the person self-labels with it, and "shemale" is offensive unless describing a certain genre of pornography (where female-attired persons display their male parts). While some preop TSs play "shemale" roles to earn money for surgery, it is not a general term for all TSs. That term tends to objectify non-op TGs (or rarely preop TSs until surgery).66.110.251.145 (talk) 20:22, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see discussion under "Cross-dressing vs transgender" for other opinions on 66.110.251.145's that "transgenderists" are somehow similar to crossdressers, and distinct from transsexuals. They're kind of very offensive to transgender folks, who by the way would not want to be called "Drag Queens" or "Cross Dressers" as those are very similar and both not the same as transgender people. Dil is a non or pre-operative trans woman. That's the term that should be used. 138.69.160.1 (talk) 21:49, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Complete redo

Really, there should be a separate page about films that deal with the subject of Gender Bending, so that all films that don't technically feature transsexuals can be together, and this page should actually be about legit transsexuals. Also, it should use the word transsexual, transgender can include gays and lesbians. Cptnjess (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Transsexuals can also be gay, lesbian, bi, straight, none, all, etc given some films do involve romantic and sexual relationships it seems odd to divide them further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.122.113 (talk) 05:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Connie and Carla

I've removed Connie & Carla from the list, as I have never heard of it, it has no wikipage, and the editor whom added it offered no synopsis for the film. Furthermore, checking it's IMDB page reveals that the story is about two women who pretend to be drag queens. Since they are apparently cissexual women, and not transgendered... Jestermonkey 05:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree kind of, alot of the Films listed here are not about Transgender People. Like Rocky Horror, just because there is refrence to a place called "Transexual" none of the characters are; they're simply men dressed in womens clothings for kicks aka Transvestite.

Page move?

Shouldn't this be moved to "List of transgender people in film and television"? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

This article seems to be more than a list of only people though. The largest part of the article is simply films that feature transgender themes or people; some don't really have a well-defined person. My guess is that whoever created this article was going for something like a "<blahblahblah> in film and television", with the topic of "transgender". — Wwagner 04:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That may be what they were going for, but reading the first sentence make me think this should be moved to "List of transgender-related films" or "List of transgender-related films and TV shows". -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What No Law and Order ?

I know one ep on Law & Order: Special Victims Unit call Fallacy (Season 4, Episode 21)

Actually, that was an episode about the condition of transsexualism and therapeutic transition, not gender variance and transgenderism.66.110.251.145 (talk) 20:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see discussion under "Cross-dressing vs transgender" for other opinions on 66.110.251.145's position that transgender and transexual are different, and that transgender people are essentially "deviant" and transexual people are "normal."

That being said, that episode is most definitely not about a trans girl, so much as about genital mutilation of a cis boy and a subsequent attempt to FORCE him into a female identity which was disastrous to his psyce. I suppose the argument could be made that he's a trans boy, in that his desire to correct his body back to it's original state could be a form of transness because he has a long term established female identity he's shedding, but also it could be cisness because he was assigned male at BIRTH and reassigned a few days later to female when he was mutilated... that one's really tricky. 138.69.160.1 (talk) 21:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Removed many entries

I've removed many entries, as it seems that the word 'character' refers to a fictional person, someone playing a role. It doesn't seem that real life transgender people belong in a list of characters. Revert if you think I was wrong. Bkatcher (talk) 04:53, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that this article be merged into the article Cross-dressing in film and television. The content in this article appears on both lists, and I think that it can easily be explained in the context of one article. The article's title may also need to be changed to reflect the merger. Fortdj33 (talk) 03:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I highly disagree. Crossdressing means dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex, which can be done because the character is transgender, in a disguise, wearing a costume, or a variety of other reasons. Transgender means that the person feels they are in the wrong body, and would like to live as the opposite sex. A transgender person may never crossdress. Or, they may only put on the clothes of their new gender after sex reassignment surgery, thereby never actually crossdressing. There may be some overlap between the two articles, but crossdressing and transgenderism are not the same thing by any stretch. Czolgolz (talk) 05:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It was not my intention to say that Crossdressing and Transgender are the same thing. But unfortunately, the editors who created these two articles were not as well informed. There are movies in the article Cross-dressing in film and television, which clearly deal with transgender issues in a non-comedic way, and do not belong there. Similarly, there are movies on the List of transgender characters in film and television that simply include drag queens or transvestites, and are not about transgender at all. I only propose that these two article be combined into a newly titled article, such as List of Cross-dressing and transgender characters in film and television, with a separate section for each. Fortdj33 (talk) 14:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree to that, but wouldn't that article be insanely long? There's so many instances of crossdressing on TV (just about every sitcom had an episode like that). Czolgolz (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved some of the more obvious links to their proper articles, but there is still some cleanup to be done, whether or not there is a consensus to keep the two articles separate. Movies such as Glen or Glenda, The Crying Game, Sleepaway Camp and Breakfast on Pluto are still on both lists, and their descriptions make it unclear as to whether they are about transgender characters, or people simply pretending to be the other gender. Fortdj33 (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Moved Glen or Glenda to the proper article, left the rest, and removed the proposal for merger. Fortdj33 (talk) 19:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we need a Transsexualism in Film and Television section. Lumping TSs (self-claimed birth condition and transition for therapeutic reasons) with TGs (gender orientation, political grouping that opposes most of what most TSs support, gender variance, gender variance), offends a good number of genuine transsexuals who are not TGs nor a part of the LGBT, and misleads the public about such TSs. Unlike transsexuals (who cease being TS or even TG after surgery), transgendered persons don't usually get corrective surgery.66.110.251.145 (talk) 20:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see discussion under "Cross-dressing vs transgender" for other opinions on 66.110.251.145's position that transgender and transexual are different, and that transgender people are essentially crossdressers wheras transsexual people are "normal." 138.69.160.1 (talk) 21:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Body swaps and crossdressing

Just a reminder, people who crossdress for entertainment or whose brains are magically swapped are not transgender. Bkatcher (talk) 12:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Transgender includes ALL forms of gender variance (and transsexualism is gender conformity instead, just conformity to the gender associated with the allegedly corrected body). But I think you are right. Someone like Martin or Tyler Perry isn't really transgendered. They would be better described as female impersonators (as a job description, not a personal one).

Magically swapped would have more of the dynamics of transsexualism, without the struggle, unless they are not at home in the new role (like someone getting a gender swap spell put on them for certain misdeeds). Transgenderism would be about the motives and free will of the person, and for a person to suddenly become the other without effort nor desire would not be transgender. If they are happy with the metamorphosis and behave accordingly, they would not even be transsexuals, though to coin a term, they could be considered "transsexed" as a more passive adjective. I read some gender fiction like that where an orphan was kidnapped and implanted with things that would slowly change their gender identity and physical sex.

Now, there is a rare real-life condition like this where a missing protein causes primary sexual differentiation to remain incomplete. Then at puberty, they develop both primary and secondary male characteristics. The body does what it should have done 12-14 years earlier (ie., the clitoris and urethra elongate, the apparent vagina occludes, the vulvae form a scrotum, and the testes descend). From what little I have read, they have little personal problem with that happening. The biggest thing is the legal issues in a place that does not recognize this phenomenon.66.110.251.145 (talk) 20:45, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see discussion under "Cross-dressing vs transgender" for other opinions on 66.110.251.145's position on transgender people. They're pretty hardcore offensive to transgender folks. 138.69.160.1 (talk) 21:45, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Old Made-for-TV Show

I have a vivid memory of a TV program that aired in the late 1970's about a young boy who liked to play with dolls and seemed to be transgendered. I thought that it was a Police Woman episode, but I couldn't find it listed in Police Woman archives. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about? doctorwolfie (talk) 17:11, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Transvestite or cross-dresser

According to the sub section "Transvestite or cross-dresser" in the section "Transgender identities" in the article "Transgender" transvestites are transgender people.

This list as of 12 April 2014 is about "films whose primary character(s) are transgender. It also includes films of note who have a secondary transgender character".

On 5 April 14:42 CET I added:

• Just Like a Woman (1992): British comedy-drama film directed by Christopher Monger starring Julie Walters, Adrian Pasdar, and Paul Freeman. The film is based on the novel Geraldine, For the Love of a Transvestite by Monica Jay, and is one of the few "cross-dressing" films in which the hero is actually a transvestite. Gerald Tilson, a finance executive, finds himself thrown out by his wife when she discovers women's underwear in their flat; in fact the clothes belong to him. He takes lodgings with Monica, who gradually discovers his alter ego, "Geraldine".

in the section Trans women.

On 5 April 18:20 CET(?) Bkatcher removed my addition with the following reason: "I hate to undo this, but the character was a crossdresser, not a transwoman)".

Based on the definitions in the top of the list and in the article about transgender where transvestite is defined as one form of transgender identity I believe that Just Like a Woman belongs in this list, and hence that Bkatcher is wrong.

Hence I will undo Bkatcher undo of my addition.

There are several other films in the list that have characters that are either transvestites or cross-dressers according to the accompanying text.

--Ohedland (talk) 07:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Divide page into trans characters with cis actors / trans characters with trans actors

There is ongoing discussion about the problematic nature of cisgender actors playing transgender characters, and no matter one's opinion on the discussion there is potentially a valid reason to separate those two lists on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lizdc (talk • contribs) 00:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that this is of sufficient interest to readers that we should make it easy to find works that feature trans actors. I'm not convinced that creating two lists is the best way to do it, but the relevance of this information is something I think we should consider when thinking about how to present the content. My preference is for a prose section that talks about the issue, and relates a history of films and programmes that feature out trans actors. —Ringbang (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I definitely second that - went looking for exactly that information here, but it's all digged deeply into cis people playing trans characters. Having it as a seperate list makes it pretty clear on that grounds too. Trans actors have a hard time of getting a role in the first place, and if there is actual trans people playing trans characters I think it is a very significant difference and on basis of that deserves its own list. It can very well be in the same page but it's a very significant difference that should also be visually clear. Rhonda D'Vine (talk) 14:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Another addition, but where?

The film Predestination contains character (characters?) that might be appropriate to this list. However, my own ignorance leaves me in doubt as to where they would belong. Ckoerner (talk) 15:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Documentaries

Should documentaries count? The people in them are not exactly 'characters'. Bkatcher (talk) 02:38, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

No, it's just as you say: the article is for fictional characters. —Ringbang (talk) 23:17, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Ozzy & Drix transgender episode

The Ozzy & Drix episode "An Out of Body Experience" part 1 and 2 has Ozzy turning into a female when he turns pink and calls Drix for help, and that's when he learns he's gender morphing. When a cell from a certain gender goes to a body of another gender, that cell becomes that gender, so it should have been in this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.230.253.124 (talk) 15:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Merge discussion result

Continued from the proposed merge discussion with Ringbang here. Sorry for the delay in closing that discussion and moving to this talk page - I'm only on Wikipedia intermittently at the moment. Quick summary of the merger discussion: concluded that it would be be best not to merge, but instead to work on this article, renaming it to Transgender in film and television in order to expand the content and move away from the list format.

I'm firmly interested in working on this, but I won't have much time, so don't rely on me to drive this forward! Marianna251TALK 15:36, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Sources

The vast majority of this has no sources. I've removed the redlinks without sources as there is nothing to demonstrate it even exists. I'm probably going to start thinning out all the entries that I can't locate sources for. This is entirely too many entries on an important topic for them not to be sourced. If the wiki article linked has sources, I don't see a need to put it here, but everything else must be verifiable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:41, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Material of this article referred to in another article

Please see this discussion: Talk:List_of_transgender_and_transsexual_fictional_characters#Content_Removal.

--David Tornheim (talk) 22:57, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Purposed change in format to this page

While there are positives to the current format, I think its time for a new format. I have done some work on the "Live-action television" section of "List of fictional trans characters" page. Here is the format I used:

Characters	Actor	Show	Year	Notes
Aaron	Elliot Fletcher	The Fosters	2013-2018	Aaron is a trans man.

I would purpose scrapping the current headings and creating some new ones, using the above format (perhaps with the addition of a category like "identity" to include terms like Trans man or Trans women). Those new headings would be:

• "Live-action television"
• "Film"

The "live action television" section would include all those currently in the "Television Shows Portrayals" section. There may be some I've listed on the "List of fictional trans characters" which are duplicates of those on this page, so I'd go through those, delete the duplicates and keep the rest. The "film" section would include those from the "Trans men" and "Trans women" categories.

Also, I think it should be clear that this page does not include trans characters in anime and animation which is covered on the above mentioned page ("List of fictional trans characters"), in the section "Animation and Anime." In order to make this discussion as broad as possible, I'm including the following users, who have contributed some recent edits to this page, @User: Bkatcher, @User:Netoholic, @User:Casualskeptic, @User:Bunniebabe18, @User:World of drag, and anyone else who wants to participate.

I'm willing to consider other headings as well, of course, but in any case, I'd like to move the content from the "List of fictional trans characters" page to this one, which is why I'm posting this. After this, I think its time to go through all the entries on this page and find sources, then that pesky notice can be removed. That's all and I look forward to hearing from you all. Historyday01 (talk) 14:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Proposed split and renaming

I originally posed this on the Talk:List of LGBT characters in television and radio#Page size page, but I'd like to pose it here. Looking at WP:SIZESPLIT, a page is only split when it is over 100 kB, and the page is currently 103.59 Kb (or 103,590 bytes). Here is my proposal:

The section titled "Portrayals in television series" would be split into a page titled List of transgender characters in television. The main page, currently named "List of transgender characters in film and television" would be renamed List of transgender characters in film.

With that, I look forward to your comments. Please indicate, as noted on WP:RMCOMMENT whether you support or oppose this move. I was going to make this more complex, with many options, but I'm trying this first. Historyday01 (talk) 00:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support splitting due to prose size and the list being overly long at the moment. However I oppose the use of "trans" because it feels overly colloquial and does not seem to be consistent with other similar articles; would support "transgender" instead. I see "transgender" used more in article naming, especially in lists, although there are two article exceptions I could find: trans man and trans woman. (If there's been a discussion about this, maybe somewhere in the MOS?, I'd be happy to take a look; don't remember any.) Urve (talk) 08:16, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Urve, that's fair. I was giving it the current names based on the consensus on the List of fictional trans characters talk page to change the name from List of transgender and transsexual fictional characters to List of fictional trans characters. I had a whole bunch of names in mind, in the original post, but I thought it easier to just do one option, to start, and see what the response is after that point. But, yeah, I wouldn't oppose calling the pages List of transgender characters in television and List of transgender characters in film instead. Historyday01 (talk) 14:33, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

There is the film industry and the television industry, so it makes sense to split the article into List of transgender characters in film and List of transgender characters in television. And as more characters are added, each list will continue to grow. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 10:32, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Glad you agree. I'm also certain that both lists will grow, especially since there are other shows in past years that likely have been missed on the list as well. Historyday01 (talk) 13:44, 10 February 2021 (UTC)