Talk:Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development

Block Quote

I have reformated the block quote as it seems to create undue weight and does not conform with WP:MOS (it's less than four lines):

• "Format a long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) as a block quotation" [1]
• "Long quotations crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information. Many direct quotations can be minimised in length by providing an appropriate context in the surrounding text"WP:QUOTE
• "As a matter of style, quoteboxes should generally be avoided as they draw special attention to the opinion of one source, and present that opinion as though Wikipedia endorses it. Instead of using quoteboxes to highlight its notability, explain its importance before introducing the quote or in an introduction to the quote."
• Do not use quotes when "Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias"-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The Lead

Is there a source that says that MOHED is "associated with the TM Movement"? According to the sources I have seen, it appears to be an organization primarily associated with the Maharishi.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:02, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The text should accurately reflect the sources. --BwB (talk) 19:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Keithbob, what do your sources say about the connection between the Maharishi and MHOED?   Will Beback  talk  21:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Their are 39 different sources cited in the article but only five of them have URL's for verification. Those that I can verify speak of a connection with Maharishi and I didn't see any text that says MHOED is "associated with the Transcendental Meditation movement". Perhaps that reference should be removed from the lead.

• A couple of guys from California wearing suits and tasseled loafers appeared in a Rosemont hotel Friday morning on behalf of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, founder of the Transcendental Meditation movement and subdivision developer wanna-be. [2]
• The unlikely combination of ancient Indian spiritual wisdom and modern suburban real estate construction is the cornerstone of the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corporation of Malibu, Calif.[3]
• Henning is teaming up with his spiritual mentor, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the guru of Transcendental Meditation, to create Vedaland - land of knowledge - on 450 acres southeast of Walt Disney World[4]
• Henning and transcendental meditation guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi plan four Veda Lands: in Orlando, Niagara Falls, the Netherlands and Japan. All are to be similar in design[5]
  • And if they can find the financing, the experts wonder if Henning and the Maharishi are prepared to compete directly with Disney World, Sea World and Universal Studios Florida. [6]
  • Most of the Vedaland plans remain under wraps at the Maharishi's headquarters, the Capital of the Age of Enlightenment, in Vlodrop, Netherlands. [7]
• Disciples of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, once the guru of the Beatles, are negotiating a contract with a San Jose developer to build a 1,000-acre City of Immortals in South San Jose. Officials of the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Co., a Malibu-based firm that claims to have an exclusive pipeline to the Maharishi, [8]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure - do you think that MMY was unassociated with the Transcendental Meditation movement? Here are some additional quotes about MHOED

• A 63,000-square-foot "peace palace" is planned in rural Ottawa where people will study stress management. It will be run by the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp., a well-financed group that teaches transcendental meditation. The group estimates the building will cost $6 million. Until this year, the group had its headquarters in Sandy Hill.
  • 63,000-square-foot 'peace palace' planned; [Final Edition] Michael Prentice. The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Oct 10, 2002. pg. C.10
• For the past decade, the house at 500 Wilbrod St. was headquarters of the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp., a group that practises transcendental meditation.
  • Algeria pays $2.95 million for historic mansion: Fleck-Paterson House in Sandy Hill fetches highest price received for a heritage property in Ottawa; [Final Edition] Michael Prentice. The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Jun 13, 2002. pg. B.2

• Since the 1960s, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has steadily added to his list of programs, business ventures and platforms that all spring from Transcendental Meditation. Here's a look at some of his enterprises:
• Transcendental Meditation. The technique is offered in every state in the country, but it's not quite the TM of the peace and love days. In the 1960s, the introductory training cost $35. Last summer it cost $400. This year, it's gone up to $1,000. "We have made the program available for the past 35 years at rates far below our expenses," said a representative.
• Hotels. The Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. has purchased more than a dozen old hotels around the country, including the Heaven on Earth Inn in Aurora.
• Veda Land theme parks. With backing from popular magician Doug Henning, a TM follower, plans are to build Maharishi theme parks in Florida and near Niagara Falls, with additional parks to follow.
  • The business plan Colorado Springs Gazette - Telegraph. Colorado Springs, Colo.: Sep 17, 1994. pg. E.1

• The theme park's Maharishi Veda Land Canada, for instance, is a for-profit corporation raising $230-million in equity, $538-million in debt financing and $60-million in corporate sponsorship. [..] It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp., which lent MVL Canada $4-million seed money (at 11-per- cent interest). Another subsidiary is Maharishi Veda Land International, which has plans to open theme parks in Florida and India. Mr. Henning says Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. is a charitable organization dedicated to assist developing countries. Separate the NLP may be from these organizations, but the connections are many. Mr. Henning, for one, is senior vice-president of the Natural Law Party in Canada and Britain, chairman and president of Maharishi Veda Land Canada and a director of Maharishi Veda Land International. Neil Paterson is the NLP leader in Canada, and chief executive officer of all the TM organizations of North America, a director of Maharishi Veda Land Canada, as well as the chief administrator of Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. Robert Pepper and Rick Weberg, of Pepper Weberg Trading and Investment Corp., acting as the agent in financing Maharishi Veda Land Canada, are also directors of Veda Land Canada, and stand to earn 4 per cent of all the money they raise for Veda Land. This is a conflict of interest they have acknowledged to prospective investors. Mr. Pepper and Mr. Weberg contested seats in Toronto for the NLP. Another NLP candidate, George Amarica, ran in Lasalle Emard in Quebec, and he too is a director of Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp.
  • VEDA LAND The New Incarnation of the Maharishi REJECTION BY THE VOTERS ONLY SERVES TO MAKE THE NATURAL LAW PARTY'S APPEALS MORE URGENT, ITS PLANS MORE GRANDIOSE, ITS CLAIMS MORE STRIDENT. JACK KAPICA. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Nov 27, 1993. pg. D.3

• The rundown mansion at 500 Wilbrod St. was bought in May by Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. Canada for its headquarters for Transcendental Meditation programs across Canada.
  • Paterson House plan clears city obstacle; [Final Edition] Ron Eade. The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Oct 7, 1992. pg. C.2

• Paterson House, the monster heritage home at 500 Wilbrod St., has been sold to the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. Canada. The same Maharishi who brought Transcendental Meditation to the world. [..] It will also become the national office for Transcendental Meditation programs across Canada.

I have to say that questioning whether Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development is part of the TM movement seems a bit tendentious.   Will Beback  talk  21:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Coatrack Issues

This article is about a specific organization, incorporated in Malibu, California in 1988. However it also includes information and text on other legal entities with similar names. Can someone please provide quotes from sources that specify the legal relationship between the article subject and the companies listed below?

• Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp Canada
• Maharishi Veda Land International [USA?]
• Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company (Mahedco) [Netherlands?]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:02, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Please don't mis-characterize my editing.

This article is on the "Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development", which has had more than one iteration. Unfortunately I don't have access to their incorporation papers so the legal details are hard to come by. We do have sources that specifically say the Maharishi Veda Land was a subsidiary of Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development, which is what the article says. I'm just summarizing sources.   Will Beback  talk  21:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

We must always accurately reflect the text of the sources and have sources to support the text of the article. --BwB (talk) 09:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Our job is to verifiably summarize neutral sources using the neutral point of view.   Will Beback  talk  09:24, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

My post above brings up issues about this article's content. It does not mention any editor names nor does it comment on any editor's behavior. This is a thread about the article's content. I respect the work of those that have edited this article prior to me however, many of the sources cited in this article do not have links and I am not able to verify many citations and their content. My web research on Google news Archives also yields no result for these. Therefore I am asking does anyone have access to the cited sources that indicate that the above organizations are related? If so, can that editor please provide quotes from the sources to demonstrate that relationship? Thank you very much for your help.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Are there specific assertions in the article that you're challenging? Almost every statement in the article is referenced. You seem to be asking for something that's not in the article.   Will Beback  talk  20:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I have placed quote request tags in several places in the article. Please have a look when you have time. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Here are the quotations you asked for. If something seems to tbe missing let me know - i may have excerpted the wrong passage:

• Encouraged by sympathisers in such high places, the Dutch-based Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company (Mahedco) has asked Maputo for permission to implement an ambitious plan to develop 20 million hectares of Mozambican territory - almost a quarter of the countryside. Mahedco wants to plant cotton, timber, mangoes and pawpaws, rebuild the infrastructure of the country, and set up a national health scheme based on 'natural' holistic medicine. [..] The government was even quieter on its links with the movement after Afonso Dhlakama, the leader of the opposition Renamo party, entertained giggling crowds by ridiculing Chissano's yogic achievements. Memories were still fresh of the electoral defeat in Zambia of Kenneth Kaunda, another convert to the cause, who had also contemplated handing over vast tracts of land to the Maharishi. [..]Finance Minister Eneas Comiche denied that any project from any foreign company involving such enormous quantities of land had come before the government. But he neglected to add that the Frelimo government had signed an agreement with Mahedco on 6 July last year. The agreement commits the government to allocate unused land in five provinces for Mahedco projects. But it is vague: it does not mention where the land is, nor does it endorse specific projects. Development agencies point out that Mahedco has no track record. Others say that to implement the project would mean massive forced removals of peasants who have moved on to land expropriated by the government. Chissano's victory is a boost for Mahedco's plans. But Uijen is patient, saying the 'masterplan for heaven on earth' is to last for 50 to 100 years.
  • VAN NIEKERK, PHILLIP (November 27, 1994). "Mozambique and yogic cult start project to create Utopia Phillip van Niekerk reports from Maputo on moves by the guru of the Beatles to run a quarter of the country". The Guardian (Manchester (UK)).

• The Yogi is no stranger to real estate development. His Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. recently moved its Canadian office to the historic (and coincidently named) Paterson House in Sandy Hill, after buying the building for more than a million dollars and pledging the same amount to its renovation. [..] . His first true stab at politics came two years ago in Africa, where it is easier to convince one president than a majority of voters. Zambia's president Kenneth Kaunda invited him there to spread the word of meditation during his election campaign. Kaunda promised to give a quarter of Zambia's land to TM if elected, and the Yogi's people fanned through the countryside, instructive videos in hand. But Kaunda lost big, and the TM people left soon after.
  • Richardson, Mark (October 12, 1993). "A leap of faith". The Ottawa Citizen: p. A.1.

• A new independent newspaper, the Weekly Post, last week produced a well-documented story saying Kaunda plans to give a quarter of Zambia's land to the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp., an Indian religious cult. In return for the money and the land, Heaven on Earth undertakes to create a new disease-free capital - Lusaka's infrastructure is collapsing and the city is riddled with cholera - as well as several other modern town and villages "devoid of evil and diseases."
  • MANTHORPE, JONATHAN (September 25, 1991). "Zambia heads toward economic collapse Impending famine could spell defeat for Kaunda in October vote". The Gazette (Montreal, Que.): p. C.10.

I'll go ahead and remove the tags. You never explained the coatrack issue. The only subject of this article is MHOED, and every paragraph and source discusses that topic. Coatracks are articles that purport to be about one thing but are really about a different topic.   Will Beback  talk  20:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the quotations. Do you have URL's for these sources? If not, may I ask how you are accessing them? If you could let me know so I can also have access to these sources it would be greatly appreciated.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm concerned bout the possibility that several corporations with similar names are being represented by this article as one in the same. For example the article says: "Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Corp. was founded in Malibu, California in 1988 by its first president, money manager Monty Guild.[10] Other officers included Neil Paterson, Richard Rubin, Jonathan Rudney, developer Curtis McDonald, and architect Henry Clark." [9] But the organization Mahedco was founded in Holland and has a different set of officers. [10] [11] -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The article says, "First founded in Malibu California in 1988,..." That's correct, so far as I know from the sources. If you can find sources that describe the relationship between the different iterations of Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development then that'd be helpful. Can you get copies of the incorporation papers? While we don't have enough information to talk about the relationship between them, it's not unusual to cover very similar topics in the same article. For example, the article on possoms include several different species.   Will Beback  talk  21:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but the various possums are scientifically and genetically related. If this article is about a certain group of organizations that generally sound the same, then the lead should state that. Right now it specifies the article is about one specific corporation but it then goes on to describe and link other organizations with similar names, calling them 'arms' of the article topic. Without reliable sources this amounts to mis-representaion and should be taken seriously. Also, it appears that so far only one editor, the article's creator has the ability to verify about 90% of the references. This also raises issues regarding verifiability.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Another comparison is to Amway. There are various different Amway corporations in different countries. Good luck trying to figure out the precise legal and economic connections between them, but no one seriously doubts that Amway USA is part of the same overall business as Amway Canada.

Regarding the sources, that's an odd assertion to make from someone who has extensively cited from a book that's only held by four libraries in the U.S.[12] Anyway, those newspaper sources are all widely available. I cannot give URLS that'll do anyone any good because the Proquest system uses URLs that are unique to each library system, so only people in my library system can use them. I've repeatedly given excerpts upon request, and if there's any more that you'd like just ask.   Will Beback  talk  21:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Will, thanks for letting us know that you are using the Proquest system to access the sources cited for this article and for providing excerpts when requested.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm always glad to help with legitimate requests.   Will Beback  talk  10:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Does this Source support the text?

• The current text says:
  • "Kingsley Chinkuli, the Home Affairs minister, granted Mahedco "the right to select those Zambian families which will live on the land"
• The cited source says:
  • "Kenneth Kaunda endorsed a Trans­cendental Meditation project named Maharishi Heaven On Earth Development to try to put life back into his campaign for reelection."
  • "The aim of Heaven on Earth Development project is “to gain the support of nature for the whole country.”
  • "Home Affairs Minister Kingsley Chin­kul­i agreed to give the Heaven On Earth Corporation full control over 2.2 million hectares of land including the right to select those Zambian families which will live on the land."

The cited source mentions the name of a project but makes no mention of a the American Corporation which is the topic of this article. Furthemore it says that the Minister gave HOE Corp 'full control' not MAHEDCO. And finally is MAHEDCO a subsidiary of the article subject? Can someone please supply a quote from a source that states this? Thank you. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The subject of this article is "Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development", which has various iterations. Here's a longer excerpt from the relevant source:

• Kenneth Kaunda endorsed a Transcendental Meditation project named Maharishi Heaven On Earth Development to try to put life back into his campaign for reelection. The project has presented itself in ads (i.e. in Times of Zambia, 30th Oct 91) as “a technique to develop higher states of consciousness, enriching all levels of life.” The ad claims the technique has been “documented” by the Universities of Sussex, Stockholm, and Harvard Medical School. The aim of Heaven on Earth Development project is “to gain the support of nature for the whole country.” Home Affairs Minister Kingsley Chinkuli agreed to give the Heaven On Earth Corporation full control over 2.2 million hectares of land including “the right to select those Zambian families which will live on the land.” Which meant that the Corporation would have the right to replace whatever families it chose from the region.[13]

Is it your contention that "Maharishi Heaven On Earth Development", "Heaven on Earth Development", "Heaven On Earth Corporation", and "the Corporation" are referring to separate entities?   Will Beback  talk  19:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The article uses the terms Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development and Heaven on Earth Development and Transcendental Meditation as adjectives for the word projects. It only refers to Heaven on Earth as a corporation. So the terms used in the article are ambiguous and need to be corroborated by other sources rather and not just assume that the five different terms used in the article are interchangeable.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

There can be confusion with similar names. For example we don't know if the word Maharishi refers to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Maharishi Brighu. Likewise, Maharishi University of Management is associated with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but Maharishi Dayanand University is not. We have to be careful with these names and make sure our sources specify the person or organization very clearly.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Good to be cautious to make sure sources are used accurately. --BwB (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Since all of these uses appear in a single source, I think it's clear they're talking about the same thing. It's absurd and rather tendentious to assert that multiple companies with "Heaven on Earth" in their name were simultaneously negotiating with the Home Affairs Minister of Zambia for control of the land.   Will Beback  talk  22:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

In numerous posts on this page I have indicated my concerns about various aspects of this article. It's troubling that an editor would repeatedly characterize my good faith efforts to ensure the accuracy of the article as being biased or tendentious.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious editing is troubling. Please read WP:TE.   Will Beback  talk  10:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Parking Source

MIGHT ELECTION RESULTS SEND MOZAMBIQUE TOWARD NIRVANA?, London Observer Service, Published: Thursday, Dec. 1 1994 12:00 a.m. MS [14]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:23, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Another source [15]........ but this one contradicts the article by saying the Zambi project was started by IMS of Holland not MHOED. "The Heaven on Earth project, Kaunda said, is merely an "experiment," an attempt to try something radical and new to solve Zambia's endemic problems. It's a development scheme, he said, and not a religious one. No one will be forced to join a cult or meditate against his or her will. The project began last year, when representatives of the Dutch-based International Meditation Society came to Zambia and got an audience with Kaunda.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)