Talk:Manukau

New article is bad for links

Manukau was formerly a redirect to Manukau City. A new article has now been created here about a suburb of the former city. More than 100 articles that used to link through the redirect to Manukau City now incorrectly link to this new article about a mere industrial suburb. I guess someone (I'm not volunteering) will have to fix them all, unless we can revert the article on the grounds of non-notability, or just because it has created a mess. Nurg (talk) 06:05, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Suburbs are notable by default as far as I know. Why not just move this article to Manukau (suburb) and then reinstating the redirect? Seems easier. Schwede66 07:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That move sounds reasonable to me, but not the redirect; it should be a disambiguation page instead. The term Manukau often seems to refer to South Auckland or the broader area around the harbour, not specifically the old council.

The links should be reviewed anyway in light of the governance changes (as should all links to Manukau City and the other old councils). I've made a start on the links to Manukau. --Avenue (talk) 09:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge; most of the discussion relates to what are reliable official lists of neighbourhood; no support for the proposal with consistent opposition; no support. Klbrain (talk) 21:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

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I propose merging Goodwood Heights into Manukau. Goodwood Heights isn't an actual suburb and there is no information beyond mention of a school and the demographics, both of which can easily be merged into this article. Traumnovelle (talk) 16:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The article is not in a great shape, but I can find a wide range of sources that treat Goodwood Heights as an independent suburb (and not just a part of Manukau Central), including news, council, and other various sources. A few suburbs I recently merged were Glenfield North and Cheltenham, which had significantly fewer sources that described these places as independent. Prosperosity (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Cheltenham is an actual suburb whilst Goodwood Heights isn't, check the records. So the issue is not whether it exists as a location (which is what the sources are referring to it as), but rather if it meets WP:GNG as WP:NPLACE doesn't apply (If you think a census area qualifies for NPLACE then we'd have hundreds of articles on Suburb name + East/West/North/South). The latter article also mentions Manukau Heights, which redirects to Goodwood Heights. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I did check the records, many times! We don't actually have suburbs in Auckland that are distinctly defined and delineated areas (except for the North Shore, as the former North Shore City defined specific areas as suburbs). Even then, we have issues where the LINZ Gazetteer may list a location as a suburb but define all of its territory as being within a different suburb (like with Devonport and Cheltenham), or when LINZ lists a suburb but there's no wide cultural/social understanding of the place as a suburb (e.g. North Titirangi).

An important part of what makes a suburb is if there is ongoing discourse about the subject treating it as a suburb (similar to WP:N for establishing if a person is notable) - if there's enough recognition of an area as a distinct place, and enough sources out there that actually discuss the subject, this can justify an independent article.

I feel that in its current state, the Goodwood Heights article doesn't have enough content, but there are enough resources available where a start-class quality article could be created (and the content would be distinct from Manukau Central content). Prosperosity (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Most suburbs have legal recognition from either the NZGB or Auckland Council - Goodwood Heights has neither.

North Titirangi is a suburb and is recognised by both the NZGB and Auckland Council, it's also over a century old in terms of recognition as being distinct from Titirangi.

>An important part of what makes a suburb is if there is ongoing discourse about the subject treating it as a suburb

No it doesn't, see WP:NPLACE which states that if no legal recognition is given it must meet GNG, and the mentions of Goodwood Heights are all trivial that amount to 'it's a location that exists'. I even searched for it and after filtering real estate the first result (minus Wikipedia), is a campground in Otago.

This wouldn't survive AfD and a merge allows the useful content (the demographics) to be maintained. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Where are you finding a list of officially recognised suburbs by the Auckland Council? To my knowledge, this isn't something the council makes rulings on.

North Titirangi has almost no references in available texts outside of its inclusion as a recorded place on the Gazetteer (compared to places like Te Atatū Peninsula and Te Atatū South, which have copious sources).

That's what I meant by ongoing discourse, if it meets GNG or not.

I'll see if there's anything I can unearth and add it to the article. Prosperosity (talk) 01:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The Auckland Council Geomaps tool has official suburbs/places listed.

North Titirangi exists in records since a century ago, although we're getting out of scope. I don't even think North Titirangi should have it's own article but it does meet WP:NPLACE in being a legally recognised suburb.

Goodwood Heights has no legal recognition and I honestly wasn't even aware of it's existence, and I know a lot of places in Auckland. The source you added even talks about it as a part of Manukau rather than as a distinct suburb. It's a housing development part of a larger suburb such as Hobsonville Point, Karaka Lakes, and Dannemora. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not quite understanding, sorry. How does a suburb being labelled in the Geomaps took make it more official than suburbs listed on other council documents? Prosperosity (talk) 00:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Because it means it's recorded as an official locality/suburb. The NZGB also have no record of it. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

But why does being on this map make it official, but any other council map or document make it unofficial? Prosperosity (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

What other map does Auckland Council publish? This is a record of localities and their official names with the council versus a document which may be written by anyone working for the council and not be in regards to legality, current status, etc.. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Some include the pathways map, District planning maps, general council reports that include maps ([1][2]), or official council documents that make references to suburbs. I don't know why being labelled on the Auckland Council GIS Map makes something more or less official than its inclusion or exclusion in any other council map. Prosperosity (talk) 05:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That pathways map is a mess to use but it appears to use third party software for map data. The only one of those that appears to call Goodwood Heights an actual suburb also calls 'Rata-Vine' (whatever that is) and Leabank a suburb... so really this is an error by some council employee rather than any official recognition, which if it were it'd be included in the Council GIS map, which is where I have been referred to by council staff in order to consult official boundaries and names.

I did skim it so if you have something more conclusive please point it out. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Goodwood Heights (GH) is separated from Manukau Central (MC) by the Southern Motorway, and is suburban while Central is commercial on the east (motorway) side and rural on the west side. There's not a lot in common with them. The only road connection is Redoubt Road, which has a footpath but I wouldn't consider it pedestrian friendly. Perhaps there's a pedestrian walkway under the motorway I am not aware of.

Statistics New Zealand has separated the statistical area (SA2) of Goodwood Heights into GH East and West for the 2023 census, but the relatively new "SA3" areas which merge one or more SA2s to give more natural communities show GH as a distinct area from MC.-Gadfium (talk) 04:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Statistical areas aren't official/legalised places, or else we'd have have hundreds of stub articles for places we've never heard of.

Goodwood Heights isn't recognised by Auckland Council nor the NZ Geographic Board and thus fails WP:NPLACE Traumnovelle (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

It is recognised by LINZ as a suburb, at [3].-Gadfium (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

'NZ Suburbs and Localities is based on the NZ Localities dataset previously maintained by Fire and Emergency New Zealand' so it's a list used by Fire and Emergency not an actual official list of suburbs. Which is why it includes hospitals. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.