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Franchise template

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IT'S SNOWING
Very clear consensus to use the franchise template instead of the video games template. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 03:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


@WanakoDX: please stop edit warring and discuss this. Edit warring is strictly prohibited, even if you think you're right. Here's my rationale for changing the infobox from Template:Infobox video game series to Template:Infobox media franchise:

  1. The template is massively bloated with information that's provided in List of Donkey Kong video games, such as:
    Developers who only worked on a single Donkey Kong game
    Genres that only describe a single Donkey Kong game
    Platforms that only had a single Donkey Kong game
  2. The template being bloated results in things getting lost. You have to scroll really far down to see information like Shigeru Miyamoto being the creator and Nintendo being the publisher. Things like this are far more important than every single platform that has housed a Donkey Kong game at some point.
  3. Like Mario and Sonic the Hedgehog, Donkey Kong is substantially more than just video games; there are TV shows, comics, LCD games, a movie, and a theme park attraction. It's more useful to use the franchise template in scenarios like this where it encompasses more.

Basically, the franchise template is more concise, far less bloated, and gives a much better overview of the franchise. The video game template can easily go to List of Donkey Kong games, where all the developer/platform information actually fits. JOEBRO64 20:39, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should use the franchise template, especially since the first sentence of this article says this: "Donkey Kong is a video game franchise created by Shigeru Miyamoto and owned by Nintendo." It says that it's a franchise so we should use that template. Splitting and creating a DK media franchise article can be handled later and may not be appropriate since the franchise might not be notable enough for its own article. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 20:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. (Also this is the Donkey Kong franchise article so I don't see why we'd split it :V) JOEBRO64 20:51, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if that's the case, then why couldn't split and create a DK media franchise page in the first place WanakoDX (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the DK games template is desorganized unlike listing all developers, including secondary ones, and all platforms the series was present. WanakoDX (talk) 20:44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just based on length and WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the media template is a better option. There's simply too much trying to be crammed into the game template as of this revision that what should be the important hierarchical information is lost in a sea of links and text. The media infobox might be too spare in some respects, but it supports the article much better by giving examples of multimedia and its duration and rights holders rather than telling us about that rhythm game that one time as one of the first things in the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The long version looks terrible. It's massive and hard to read. You've got to think about things beyond just cramming every little thing in there. Sergecross73 msg me 21:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The media template is miles better for this purpose. The games template is so crammed with stuff that its of no use at all. Wikipedia is for the average person, the video game template in this case has strayed well past that. - X201 (talk) 22:18, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not to WP:SNOW this conversation, but I also agree on the media template being the better option. I was the original writer of a lot of the content for List of Donkey Kong video games back in the day, and it's worth mentioning that the developer information for each individual game is also included in the notes section for all of the games -- it should be comprehensive coverage. Nomader (talk) 02:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Mario vs. Donkey Kong (video game) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mario vs. Donkey Kong series

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Since the series article redirects here I was anticipating a little more detail here on why Nintendo chose to extend the series and how they developed it. Also it looks like some of its subseries games aren't included in the sales figures list. czar 18:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively perhaps it can redirect to List of Mario puzzle games#Mario vs. Donkey Kong series czar 18:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For whatever reason there aren't really any interviews about the development of the series; I was only able to find an interview about the first one's music and one video interview about one of the Wii U ones. It redirects here because sources generally treat Mario vs. Donkey Kong as part of the Donkey Kong franchise rather than the Mario franchise, since it's a successor to the Game Boy game, and the sales chart is limited to games that have publicly available sales figures. JOEBRO64 14:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Donkey Kong/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: TheJoebro64 (talk · contribs) 23:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Panini! (talk · contribs) 14:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Dibs! Panini! • 🥪 14:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my God, since May? Sorry about that, my guy. Panini! • 🥪 14:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's all good—makes it getting picked up feel a lot better JOEBRO64 17:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been pretty as of late (Bible college, still working too), so I'll be adding comments slowly as I have the time. I can lock myself to a promise of a 7 day turnaround, as per the rules of GA reviewing.

Feel free to object to any suggestions; I do not own the article and won't hold objections against, because I don't care. I don't care about anything anymore. It's great to be here! Let's do this.

Lead
  • It follows the adventures of Donkey Kong, a large, powerful gorilla. I think you can spare some expansion of this brief synopsis to include mention of other Kong members (not by name, just that they exist). They're very consistent among the franchise, and considering those Diddy Kong spinoffs for example they definitely have some stake for a mention.
  • Rare's 1994 reboot, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) game Donkey Kong Country, reestablished Donkey Kong as a major Nintendo franchise. I would also mention that it established separation from the Mario franchise (and/or elements) here too.
    • That's not really how sources treat it—they basically write as Donkey Kong always being its own thing, just taking a backseat after Donkey Kong 3's failure and Super Mario Bros.'s success. In their eyes, the franchise went on a hiatus until it became a major brand again with Donkey Kong Country JOEBRO64 00:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Makes sense. Panini! • 🥪 02:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Donkey Kong was initially the antagonist, but became the protagonist starting with Country. Since he became the protagonist I would identify who the new antagonists are (or if there's too many, just mention its a rotation per game). You mention the Kremlings a bit down, and they should get a special mention, but I'm pretty sure they were eventually surpassed by other random villains, right?
    • I reworked the sentence to say that Donkey Kong's role shifts since he's still sometimes depicted as a villain (e.g. this year's MvDK). I don't think the other villains should be mentioned since the Kremlings are the only recurring ones, the rest like the Tikis and Snowmads were just one-offs JOEBRO64 01:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I had the Tikis in mind writing this, and after reading the whole article found out that they're one of two only exceptions. So I agree with you on that. Panini! • 🥪 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original game was Nintendo's first major international success and established it as a prominent force in the video game industry. This is true, but I think you can get into specifics even more to give the legacy due weight. From my research on Mario, Donkey Kong helped establish Nintendo in the West, and saved them financially.
1981–1982, Conception and first game
  • Stealing some of your research for Mario. Don't worry, I won't credit you.
  • ...to provide a new game that could salvage the unsold Radar Scope cabinets I think "repurpose" better implies reusing the game cabinets, unless if salvaging is some lingo I don't know of
    • Salvage means "to save" so I think it's the right word in this case; NoA needed a game that could be slapped onto the Radar Scope boards because they were going to die if they spent another nickel JOEBRO64 00:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Works for me Panini! • 🥪 02:05, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph does a good job explaining the artistic design, but this section overall lacks commentary regarding gameplay. As the first game, and since most are platformers, this should be explored more. You mention its one of the earliest platform games, but is there any insight into their development choices and gameplay design? I for one had trouble explaining this with Mario because it's such simple gameplay design (jumping for example), but it's one of the first regardless.
    I like the new bits, good work! Panini! • 🥪 02:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lawsuit failed when Nintendo's lawyer, Howard Lincoln, discovered that Universal had won a lawsuit years prior by declaring that King Kong was actually in the public domain That's cool as balls
  • The victory cemented Nintendo as a major force in the video game industry. This implies that it was exclusively the lawsuit that established it as a major force, but credit should be given to the game as well.
1982–1994, Sequels and first hiatus
  • while the spin-off Mario franchise found success on the NES Is this not just from Super Mario Bros.? Can you mention it by name?
    • There was also the Mario Bros. arcade game and Super Mario Bros. 2 and 3 being colossal successes (in fact, based on my research, I believe 2 and 3 would outsell Super Mario Bros. if you excluded bundled sales). I think this is the easiest way to summarize it; after all, this is the Donkey Kong article, not the Mario one. JOEBRO64 13:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Forgot about Mario Bros., and I failed to recognize the three Super games came out within 3 years of each other; you're right Panini! • 🥪 02:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Nintendo data leak included a prototype for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (1995) featuring a protagonist who resembles Stanley. Its title, Super Donkey, suggested that Yoshi's Island began as a Donkey Kong game before it was altered to star the Mario character Yoshi. From prose alone, this seems to assume far too much, especially describing with "resembles" and "suggested". I'll look into the sources eventually, but I just don't feel comfortable putting this detail here when a jump had to be made to not only find it but declare it.
1994–1996, Rare and Donkey Kong Country
  • Personally I would separate the two images of the guys and the console, so that the details of the guys come out more clearly. There's some heavy shadowing on their faces that makes it hard to discern details from a distance, at least for me, who is writing this at 2am on the dot with weary eyes.
    A hard sacrifice to make. I applaud you. Panini! • 🥪 02:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...when Lincoln learned of Rare's SGI experiments during a trip to Europe The sentences above implies a purchase but no experiments. I get that it could be implied, but if the sources detail that they were doing stuff with it I would mention it.
  • Specify a 1992 release date for Mortal Kombat. I really should be one of those users who does minor edits like this myself instead of writing out a sentence describing it, but I'm not.
  • These graphics really are nuts
  • Because Donkey Kong did not have much of an established universe, Rare was free to expand it... Did Nintendo directly approve them to? Or did they just do it regardless?
    • Yeah they were given total freedom to do so. IIRC the only comments they got were that their DK Jr. redesign was too different (leading to him becoming Diddy) and that they couldn't use Wario as the antagonist (leading to them recycling the Kremlings from a canceled point-and-click they'd worked on in the early '90s) JOEBRO64 13:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1995–2002, Franchise expansion
  • Are you able to give a little more development detail about the 3D transition? Is there any unique developer insight about what they were aiming for?
  • Browsing Commons: You reckon you can fit that arcade cabinet image anywhere in here?
  • Also, can you find a spot for this image somewhere? It's cool as balls
  • I'm done looking, I saw naked lady :(
  • Two of Diddy Kong Racing's playable characters, Banjo the Bear and Conker the Squirrel, would go on to star in the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker franchises Woah, what! I didn't know that! That's cool as... something idk
  • However, development costs were increasing and Nintendo opted not to acquire Rare. Was Rare looking to be acquired by them? Or had they established themselves as buyable from the start?
    • yeah clarified. Rare wanted Nintendo to buy them, but Nintendo chose not to since they noticed Rare was on the decline, so they began looking for other buyers and ended up with Microsoft. JOEBRO64 13:49, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2002–2010, After Rare
  • Nintendo relegated Donkey Kong to spin-offs and guest appearances in other franchises... I'd specify "other Nintendo franchises" since there isn't much past that
2010–present, Retro Studios and second hiatus
*You have a feeling you have seen this face before.*
  • Retro sought to retain classic Country elements while refining them to create a new experience ... -> Retro sought to refine classic Country elements to create a new experience ..., since refining implies they've been retained. This sentence is dense so this helps simplify it a bit
  • Following Tropical Freeze, the Donkey Kong franchise went on another hiatus... I'm not too sure this one should be called a hiatus, considering the persistent Mario vs Donkey Kong games + remakes we have received. That is just about as active a franchise can be by a technical standpoint, where they meet a small quota of releases to keep the brand name out there. The 10 year gap in 1994 where the franchise was not used at all is what I would consider a direct hiatus.
I think the real reason why it feels like a hiatus was because of the weird hiccup we had with the Wii U. They made all of these high quality games and released the Switch 3 years later, so it's unreasonable for them to completely move on from all the work, instead of porting it over with expansion. I won't fight for this opinion though.
Done JOEBRO64 00:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Story and characters
  • Donkey Kong Jr. was retired sounds like he was retired from a fictional worldbuilding perspective. I recommend Nintendo retired the use of Donkey Kong Jr. or something similar to specify that Nintendo stopped using him
  • Not a comment, just a question for my sake out of curiosity: Has he showed up in anything since? Even as a cameo?
  • His last major appearance was as a playable character in the N64 Mario Tennis iirc, since then he's been limited to cameos and has never been acknowledged in the mainline Donkey Kong games JOEBRO64 17:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gameplay
  • I suggest an image of traditional Donkey Kong Country gameplay
    All three images are pretty dense in detail and don't really come out well compared to some alternatives I have in mind (I know there's daytime ocean levels for the rocket gameplay in Returns for example). I won't hold that against you right now because it doesn't matter, but I will bring it up at FAC so you better watch out Panini! • 🥪 02:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I got to the second-last sentence and was going to leave a comment about mentioning the shops and power-ups. Then I read the last sentence. Don't tell anyone but I picked up this review because I'm well aware you know what you're doing and I wouldn't have to do much.
  • Regarding Donkey Konga gameplay, is there a reason why it is not referred to as a Rhythm game? That would be a good link to use
Music
Animated series
  • (who later garnered recognition for voicing Optimus Prime and Megatron in the Transformers franchise) I don't see how this is relevant, unless if he had first recognition for Mario and DKJr that was later overshadowed by this
    • I think it's worth noting simply because those are two of some of, if not their best-known roles and this was the first time they worked on something together iirc. If you feel strongly about it I can remove it though JOEBRO64 01:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I must have missed the Frank Welker mention, and I thought Peter Cullen was behind both voices. Nevermind, that's cool as ballz, were keeping it Panini! • 🥪 02:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering how this article covers the franchise as a whole, I think it would be relevant to discuss these larger-scale shows and media in more detail, giving them some more weight comparable to the games themselves: Such as explaining how the shows came to be from a history standpoint, and the animators and directors behind them.
    • There really isn't much about the old cartoons in reliable sources. Saturday Supercade is extremely obscure (I believe a good chunk of it is considered lost media) and Captain N, in addition to also being obscure, was more general Nintendo than Donkey Kong-specific. Sourcing for the Country show is also limited but I was able to find some production information and added it. JOEBRO64 18:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retrospectively, Hardcore Gaming 101 criticized the series for lacking the adventure of the Country games,[196] while GameSpot called its aged animation "nightmare fuel" and "visually disturbing". Just to make sure you're not cherry-picking, I would generalize some "what" statements critics liked or didn't like about these shows. Can you find any critical observations about the shows from the late 90s, when the show was still active?
Theme parks
Sales
Legacy
Sources
  • Business Insider reliability is considered inconclusive, but the guy behind it is credible
  • I've been criticized at FAC for using Hardcore Gamer, Nintendo World Report, and Siliconera, and I ultimately removed them, just as a heads-up (I think they got on my case about VG247 too)
  • Vice reliability is considered inconclusive; I cannot find any credibility to the name of the author, Ian Dransfield. Could you? Or perhaps could you replace the source?
    • I looked into him and he worked as a senior staff member for Imagine Publishing and a staff writer for Kikizo (which we consider reliable) before freelancing for a bunch of publications we consider reliable, including GamesTM, Play, PC Gamer, CVG, and Joystiq JOEBRO64 01:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gamereactor is considered inconclusive: I have no objection if this Sam Bishop is the same one here.
    👍 Panini! • 🥪 02:24, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you considered the linked articles on the talk page? If you don't plan on using them, silently remove them lol
Verdict

Shocker, it's yet another fantastic article and a monumental achievement from one of Wikiproject Video Game's all-stars. Lame! I wanted to find some scandal.
Article is On hold to resolve comments. I see you have made some changes already, so I ask if you could leave notes on which ones you have changed here for my sake, so it's easier to track on my end. Panini! • 🥪 20:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Panini! I'll attack these over the next few days. Super busy at the moment so I can't get to it just yet but I'll likely be able to get it all done Thursday/Friday. JOEBRO64 02:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Panini!: dun JOEBRO64 01:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You could be a little more enthusiastic about it. Panini! • 🥪 02:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All the suggestions were handled and I've agreed with your comments. You have nothing for my last comment about Animated series but I assume your comment above about there not being much too much to say applies to that comment too. I'm closing this discussion as promoted. Good Job! Panini! • 🥪 02:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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