- I believe that you have looked at the final two paragraphs of the source and concluded that the authors' diagnosis of SzPD in the final paragraph is an extension of the discussion of MPD in the previous paragraph. However, that is not what the authors have done.
- You've made clear that the authors are not the 30 medical students. The 30 medical students were simply asked for a diagnosis as a part of the study by the authors of the paper. ("We asked 30 randomly selected medical students if they thought Gollum had a mental illness. Schizophrenia was the most common diagnosis (25 students), followed by multiple personality disorder (three).") Three of the 30 medical students suggested a diagnosis of MPD. In that paragraph, the authors have said that Gollum does not fill the MPD requirement of not being aware of each personality. It seems that is important enough that they chose to exclude MPD as an accurate diagnosis.
- In the final paragraph, the authors then suggest an alternative diagnosis which is schizoid personality disorder. That is not explicitly stated in the Wikipedia article. And for illustrative purposes, here are those two final paragraphs from the source.
- "The presence of two personalities, Gollum and Sméagol, raises the possibility of multiple personality disorder. In this diagnosis one personality is suppressed by the other and the two personalities are always unaware of each other's existence.3 In this case, Gollum and Sméagol occur together, have conversations simultaneously, and are aware of each other's existence.
- "Gollum displays pervasive maladaptive behaviour that has been present since childhood with a persistent disease course. His odd interests and spiteful behaviour have led to difficulty in forming friendships and have caused distress to others. He fulfils seven of the nine criteria for schizoid personality disorder (ICD F60.1), and, if we must label Gollum's problems, we believe that this is the most likely diagnosis."
- Again, I suggest, perhaps in a different way, that discussions of multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity, disorder, schizophrenia (also in the paper), and schizoid personality disorder be separated into three subsections under psychiatric conditions. Even though they all talk about Gollum, the focus here is on the psychiatric conditions, and I think it's important to separate them out, otherwise the whole thing is just confusing and makes the focus Gollum.
- OK, let's try that. The diagnoses however do all apply to Gollum, so the "case" background is essential, and all of them make use of it, so the sharing cannot be avoided. Accordingly I've grouped the three diagnoses under a new heading, "Gollum's case" to make this clear. I've added brief descriptions of symptoms in each case, to reinforce the emphasis on the disorders.
- This then makes me question the purpose of, or at least the placement of, the table. The table combines the two primary diagnoses given by the survey of 30 students for that paper. The authors, after reviewing what the students said, concluded that neither one of those diagnoses fits, and G/S should be given the diagnosis of SzPD because he meets 7/9 of the criteria. It might be that the table gives undue weight to that paper.
- Well, it was one way of approaching the multiple possible diagnoses in Gollum's case. As above, let's try without it; I don't at all agree about undue weight, as Gollum's case is extremely prominent in documented discussions.
- Further, if the movie treats Gollum as having MPD, then it should be under the subsection for that condition. However, are there any sources at all that you have, or have referenced in the article, that say that this Gollum/Sméagol scene is meant to represent MPD? Or is that a conclusion that we are drawing in our Wikipedia article on the subject? If we have sources for this, then we need to make sure that they are there (perhaps they are), and I would say something needs to be referenced in the prose from a source that says this (I will read it again after the change you made a few days ago). If we do not have something from a reliable source or sources that says that this scene is intended to represent MPD/DID in Gollum, then I think we need to say so or say something that is acceptable per Wikipedia standards. Obviously, the most radical decision would be to remove that entire part about the movie, but before doing that, we need to review what's already there. I have to go run an errand, and then after I come back, I'll take a look at this more.
- Firstly, it is not a requirement that either Tolkien's text or Jackson's film "meant" or intended to represent MPD or any other specific condition. They described something, or to put it another way, their textual or audiovisual accounts stand in for the "reality" (Gollum's case) that the psychiatrists and others are attempting to diagnose. Wikipedia is not drawing any conclusions of its own here, nor is any source required for what is not being stated or implied in any way (nor even thought of, actually!). To be clear: both Tolkien's and Jackson's accounts provide the base material, the inputs, for the diagnoses: Jackson paints a picture of Middle-earth, mental illnesses and all. Removing it would simply be a gross mistake, based on what philosophers call a "category error". But I've removed all mention of diagnosis from the image caption: all we know is that Gollum/Sméagol talks to himself, the two names describing different personalities. Further, I've grouped Tolkien's and Jackson's depictions, to make it clear these are basically equal inputs for any diagnosis.
- Secondly, once again, as above, I've separated out these headings.
- Thanks for your continued work and your never ending commitment to Tolkien articles. Back soon.
- – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking really good!
- From article: Nomenclature has varied over the years, and fans have applied labels more or less loosely; a common description is dissociative identity disorder, also known as "multiple personality disorder".
- I think italics are better here since there are quite a few uses of the quotations marks for actual quotations, and itals are preferred in the MOS. I changed it.
- Noted; not sure that the italics are needed, actually.
- I was originally thinking the same thing. Since we both agree, I took the liberty of removing the italics as well. – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk)
- From article: Further, Gollum had displayed several symptoms of the disorder: "pervasive maladaptive behaviour" since childhood "with a persistent disease course"; he had "odd interests", and indulged in "spiteful behaviour" which made friendships difficult, and caused "distress to others".
- You put this in the MPD section when it should be in the SzPD section. I moved it. Also changed it to present tense per proper treatment of fictional universes.
- Noted.
- I don't see that "aware of each other" needs to be treated as a quotation. There are other ways to say it, but it's not significant enough to worry that using this would qualify as plagiarism. I removed the quotation marks from around it.
- Noted; I really don't want to go anywhere near that dreadful boundary.
- Moving the long quote from Tolkien of G/S and the image from the movie into a table causes very squished formatting of the columns in mobile view and the mobile app. I do see the value – one column for Tolkien and one for Jackson – but we may need a different way. One option would be to return to the previous (standard) formatting of the long quote/poem and the image separately and include the Tolkien/Jackson headers differently. (I'd have to personally just play around with it to see what would be best, but you can do that. Look at the section in the mobile app to see what I mean.)
- Not going back there now, as the advantage of the side-by-side format is so great. It works fine on my (very modest) mobile, specially if I rotate it to landscape format.
- Okay. Might be worth looking into later on if you wanted to do FAC with this one. – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk)
- I think it's better now that the previously existing table has been removed and with information distributed into subsections.
This is good. After you make additional changes based on what I wrote above, I'll give it a good full read again. I think we're nearing the finish.
- All done.
- I'm glad I was able to clarify my concerns and that we have gotten this far. – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk)
– Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Criterion 3 met. – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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