Talk:Murder of Aya Maasarwe/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Description of Aya nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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What description should in the article in the lead.

1. Describing her as Israeli
2. Describing her as Palestinian-Israeli via pipe link to Arab citizen of Israel
3. As a Palestinian citizen of Israel

Shrike (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• Israeli, the lead should be what is factual without any editorializing. She was an Israeli citizen, holding an Israeli passport, and that is what should be reported, anything else can go further down if necessary. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• Israeli The WP:ETHNICITY is quite clear "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen" and many WP:RS describe hew as such anyhow for example BBC NYTIMES.Yes most of the sources do mention that her family identify as Palestinian but not in the title and we should do it in Background section as the WP:ETHNICITY requires "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead" --Shrike (talk) 18:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• First choice, Palestinian citizen of Israel, second Palestinian-Israeli. Since her family's wishes on the matter have been made clear, that she was not simply an Israeli and she was emphatically a Palestinian, reliable sources have reflected that. Among them, SBS, 9 News, Buzzfeed and the Guardian CNN News.com.au. Nothing about her citizenship has anything to do with the activities that made the person notable, making that argument wholly off-base. Now this may be impolite to say, but the number of users with a history of extremely Zionist and anti-Palestinian editing who insist on denying this woman her own damn identity is incredibly disheartening. nableezy - 18:39, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Your comment violates Wikipedia policies. I suggest you retract. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Nah. If anybody would like evidence of the above Id be glad to provide it. Including when you called me a terrorist who endorses terror. nableezy - 19:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

And I got blocked for it (and that could be because at that time you had a Hezbollah userbox, don't try to hide that from your explanation), and I got blocked explicitly for calling you anti-Israel, and here you are calling me anti-Palestinian. That is a violation, and ABF, which is not in accordance of Wiki policies. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:24, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No, what I am saying is that you, and for that matter Shrike, E.M.Gregory and Icewhiz, all have a history of editing on one end of a POV spectrum. Extremely pro-Zionist and anti-Palestinian. There are numerous examples of such editing. And it concerns me that you all have decided that this Palestinian exchange student who was raped and murdered must not be called a Palestinian. Why? Why do any of you give half a shit? I still dont get it, why do users who have never shown any interest in anything about the Palestinians besides their being "terrorists", why do you all insist that this one cannot be a Palestinian? Legit, I have no understanding of this. I cant fathom spending my time arguing over whether or not a Jewish Israeli exchange student who was killed in Brazil should be called Jewish or Israeli or anything else. I dont understand why this is an article any of you are even editing. Now of course I cant say you shouldnt be, but why do a collection of users who primarily edit about Israel even care what this one person is called? nableezy - 19:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Nableezy, this edit above violates policy. The Kingfisher (talk) 08:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate the concern. nableezy - 15:24, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I think what we're saying is that in the lead is one thing, and in the article is something else. That is all. She is an Israeli exchange student and that is how the lead should show it. And I find it odd that you have a problem with editors on one side with what you consider a bias, but do you have a problem with your edits and people who share your biases? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

No, because I do not import my biases into articles wholly unrelated. This has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I have no idea why there is a predictable lineup in this RFC so far. As I said, I cant fathom spending my time arguing over whether or not a Jewish Israeli exchange student who was killed in Brazil should be called Jewish or Israeli or anything else. This is only a problem for editors who, we all know this to be true, are very much on one side of the POV spectrum. And I cannot understand why. nableezy - 20:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Except you are importing your bias into this article. She is Israeli, as per guidelines, she should be labeled as Israeli in the lead. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Genius, I did not remove Israeli. I support Palestinian citizen of Israel. She was Palestinian. Several reliable sources say she was Palestinian. Her family says she was Palestinian. What bias exactly am I importing into this article. Im the one removing things that I dislike? Really? nableezy - 21:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I object to the claims above. I for one, as might be seen in my first edit here (objecting to the move from murder to death of, which I saw as disrespectful) - see Maasarwe as a human being first of all, and edit this article as many other crime articles.Icewhiz (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

You object to what exactly? In this discussion you started off saying it should Israeli-Arab, putting lie to the claim that you feel ethnicity should be completely removed, and edited to that effect. You further claimed that it was a BLP violation and potentially injurious to her family to call her a Palestinian, despite her family's express wishes that she be called Palestinian. You continue to disrespect those wishes by calling them Israeli-Arabs below. So you see her as a human being first, you just dont accord her the respect of allowing her own identity to be stated. I see. nableezy - 20:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Nableezy: - re " her family's wishes on the matter have been made clear" - Out of curiosity, do you have a source for that (i.e. a source that says "Aya and/or her family wish her to be identified as X")? My personal feeling on national/ethnic identifiers is that self-identification is a major factor, and if we knew what she would call herself, we should probably go with that. NickCT (talk) 13:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

@NickCT: sure, BBC: "The family have asked the media to spell her name, Aya - to reflect that she was a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship - and not Aiia, which officials had been using, based on her passport."

Times of Israel: "Maasarwe — who has asked local media to spell his daughter’s name as “Aya” instead of “Aiia” as stated in her passport to reflect that she is a Palestinian of Israeli citizenship — is set to return to Israel with her body."

SBS: "The family has contacted media organisations asking for the spelling of the name to be changed to Aya, instead of Aiia - which police had been using based on her passport information - to reflect their wish for her to be identified as Palestinian."

nableezy - 20:03, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nableezy: - OK. Thanks. NickCT (talk) 20:07, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Israeli. Per WP:ETHNICITY, balance of coverage in WP:RSes, and grave BLP concerns. Her ethnic background is also unrelated to the circumstances of her murder (in Australia). A large number of RSes do not use Palestinian, including: Washington Post, YNET, BBC, news.com.au, JPost, CNN, Telegraph, USA Today, ABC.au, Times of Israel, Fox, Sky, New York Times. An op-ed, by Jennine Khalik in The Guardian (who states in the same op-ed she and her family are Palestinian) complaining on the media coverage (and claiming Palestinian is appropriate) actually makes the opposite case for us: "It was also a reminder of how news reports can erase Palestinians so easily, with multiple Australian media outlets describing 21-year-old Maasarwe as Israeli or Arab-Israeli,... Several Australian media outlets showed that by using Israel’s official terminologies ... "[1] - so Khalik wrote an op-ed to complain how most outlets covered this - without Palestinian. To this we have WP:BLP concerns - Maasarwe is covered by WP:BDP and we don't known how all of her family relates (we do know of some). In most of the world, being Palestinian, Israeli, or any other ethnicity is of little concern - beyond a regular bio detail. In Israel - a state that per the Palestinian leadership: Israel has chosen to make it a year of a new war of genocide perpetrated against the Palestinian people (Mahmoud Abbas, September 2014, TOIAJ) - identification as Palestinian (a choice that some, but far from all, Israeli-Arabs make) - is a rather serious political statement. We should be exceedingly careful with this label. Icewhiz (talk) 19:17, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• Palestinian citizen of Israel, since this is a neutral and true description. Simply describing her as Israeli, with a link to Israelis, is a distortion of the complex reality of the situation, and risks misleading casual readers. No-one is suggesting that her Israeli citizenship not be mentioned; similarly, her Palestinian ethnicity deserves recognition in the lead. RolandR (talk) 19:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• Israeli Per *Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen... Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Maasarwe is notable as a woman killed while walking home. She is notable as a victim of violence against women. The murder was unrelated to her ethnicity. Her ethnicity is not "relevant to the subject's notability." Therefore, it should not be added to the lede, but it should be kept in subheas "Background," our COMMON location for this sort of information.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:39, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• Palestinian citizen of Israel or None. It is clear (from her family's statement) that she did not identify as an Israeli, she identified as a Palestinian. We are violating her, all over again, if we don't respect that. I can accept that neither "Israeli" or "Palestinian" is noted in the lead, as that is not what got her into the news: (I suspect her perpetrator knew nothing of her ethnicity, or nationality), Huldra (talk) 20:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• wouldn't that be SYNTH, it's clear that the family identifies as Palestinian, we have no idea how she identified, regardless of that she was Israeli and that is how she should be identified in the lead. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• According to her family: she identified as Palestinian link No SYNTH about that, Huldra (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Stuff you family tells the press about your thoughts and opinions after you die are WP:RS for your family's opinion. Not for your actual opinion.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, E.M.Gregory, serial author of Palestinians as terrorists articles, he knows more than this woman's family about her wishes. How silly of us. nableezy - 21:02, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• So you are accusing her family of lying. Nice. Huldra (talk) 20:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Again, they are not a RS for entry into an encyclopedia's lead. We can add that later on if you wish, but the lead should reflect facts. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 20:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Again, her family is very clear that she identified as a Palestinian, not as an Israeli (knowing some Palestinians with Israeli citizenship: this is completely unsurprising to me). You either accept that, or you are in effect saying her family is telling lies about her, Huldra (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• We can add it as the family's opinion of what her opinion was. But we cannot quote an assertion by the family about the thoughts of the deceased except by discussing them as a claim made by the family. No one accuses anyone of lying. There are other factors at play. Memory is fallible: you many remember what Grandpa thought about Obama or global warming differently than you sister does. Individuals suddenly thrust into a media spotlight may feel obliged to make statements that are politically popular. Mom may have told you why she and Dad decided to marry form one perspective, and have told your sister the same story from another perspective. Or your brother may have been very keen on Brexit when he talked to you in 2017, but reversed his position in 2018 when he told your brother that it was a really stupid idea. Neither of you would be lying if you told this to the press.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:02, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Do you know any young Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims/Christians in Israel, with Israeli citizenship, at all? If you did, you would see that there is nothing surprising about her family's statement. Also, once self identifying's ethnicity is a very basic thing, that someone would misremember that is like saying they misremember that they identified as female, and not as male. Huldra (talk) 21:13, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Well, I can certainly imagine a situation where a family would tell the press that their child was woman, when all of the adult child's friends knew that their friend had identified as a man.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• But here we have a case where not anyone who knew her has identified her as Israeli. Also, I was replying to your case of "misremembering": if someone had told their parents that they self-identified as a man (and not the daughter they once had): you can be damn sure they would remember it. Same with "Palestinian". Huldra (talk) 21:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Huldra, I hate to break it to you, but not everyone tells their parents. Just as not everyone tells Mom and Dad that they're no longer attending Mass every week, or no longer a Republican, or that they use a less ethnic name at work.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• E.M.Gregory: did you read what I wrote, at all? I wrote "if someone had told their parents" ...bolding the part you apparenty missed, Huldra (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Several reliable sources explicitly say she was Palestinian. All that palaver above is utterly irrelevant. The point Huldra is making is that beyond the several reliable sources that explicitly say she was Palestinian is that even her family says she was Palestinian. nableezy - 21:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

And the page cites that family stating exactly that.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

You seem to be responding to a point nobody made. I said several reliable sources say she was Palestinian. Not according to her family. But as a fact. nableezy - 21:12, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Certainly we can state as a fact that she grew up in a Palestinian family, with excellent sources. The question of how a person identifies is not so simple.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

If she were Jewish there is zero chance you would be arguing to say "she grew up in a Jewish family", that maybe she did not identify as Jewish and that despite reliable sources identifying her as a Jew and her family identifying her as a Jew that we cannot say that she is Jewish. Literally zero chance. nableezy - 22:20, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

And compare for example this article that you created and nearly entirely responsible for. You label somebody a "Palestinian terrorist". Yet he lived in Jabel Mukaber, which Israel claims as its territory and whose residents hold Israeli residential permits and not Palestinian citizenship. So Palestinian in that article would be in reference to what? Because according to you here only what his papers say would matter. Why is he not an Israeli? nableezy - 22:36, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

That was one of the first things I noted, back in 2005: you are never noted as a Palestinian on Wikipedia, unless you had done something very bad. Very simple. I guess I could start an article about every Jew, or every Rabbi who has been found guilty of some crime.....sexual, monetary, what not. But I am just not that filled with hatred....Huldra (talk) 22:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship or words to that effect; both "Palestinian" and "Israeli citizenship" must go in the lead, since they're both vital context. Sources emphasizing this include here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (many of these are currently in the article). Not all Palestinian identity or fail to give it equal weight with her Israeli one, and those aren't sufficient to omit it (in order to omit something that is well-sourced and high-profile in reliable sources, we would need sources unambiguously contesting it, ie. some sources describing her more briefly as Israeli do not allow us to ignore the greater number of sources calling her a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship or words to that effect.) Note that this also addresses the WP:ETHNICITY complaint people are making above - since the majority of reliable sources have found the fact that she is Palestinian to be noteworthy, WP:RS and WP:DUE require that we do the same. The manual of style is just a guideline, but WP:RS and WP:DUE are hard requirements. --Aquillion (talk) 23:15, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• The sources and your WP:DUE argument support discussing her ethnicity in the "Background" section of page - where it already exists. They do not support putting it in the lede. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Maasarwe is notable as a victim of violence against women. Not because she happens to be from a specific ethnic background.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• But by that standard, we shouldn't have Israeli in the lead either: again, it is not her nationality which made her notable, it was, as you said: as a victim of violence against women. Huldra (talk) 23:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
• Incorrect. WP:DUE determines both what we put in the article and its prominence; if something is covered in the leads of many mainstream reliable sources (as this is), then it belongs in the lead of the article. WP:ETHNICITY is merely a guideline and cannot override WP:DUE, even for decisions about what goes in the lead vs. the body. Additionally, as regards WP:ETHNICITY, the question is not merely "was her ethnicity the cause of her killing" but "is her ethnicity a notable part of the story surrounding her killing", ie. is it one of the reasons her killing is noteworthy. Many sources, by putting it front and center, have indicated that they do see it as noteworthy as it pertains to this topic; we cannot ignore that just because you personally think those sources got it wrong. --Aquillion (talk) 06:01, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• Israeli. Her ethnicity played no part in her killing, so it is not sufficiently notable to warrant placement in the lead. WWGB (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Did her nationality play any part in her killing? Why should that be noted? nableezy - 02:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context provides for it to be included. WWGB (talk) 02:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Here is an impartial view. She was a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship[2] but obviously, she was an Israeli also. Both descriptions of her status are true and correct. However, taking into consideration the overall situation in the region and sensitivity of the matter, her Palestinian identity should be recorded in the lead of the article.GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:56, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Comment: Guys this thread is really gross and disappointing. With friends I've been to the place where the horrible event happened as it has become a makeshift memorial full of flowers and went to her Janazah at the Albanian mosque in Dandenong. Members of her family in Melbourne were very distraught over everything that has happened. Threads like this are just another kick to the guts. Please this should not be hard. Her family self defines as Palestinian. The formula Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship works ok.Resnjari (talk) 06:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship: this is neutral and describes the situation. It also explains why Maasarwe's name is listed in Arabic in the lead, which is helpful to readers. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:40, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• a Palestinian-Israeli exchange student..., as in the current version of the article; this is less clunky than what I originally supported and gets the point across in fewer words. The current piping works well: a [[Arab citizens of Israel|Palestinian-Israeli]]. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Israeli. Isn't this a continuing pattern of a certain editor always trying to place "Palestinian" into the lede of every article, regardless of policy? The Kingfisher (talk) 03:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Please remember to assume good faith. --Aquillion (talk) 06:03, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

You wrote me a note about good faith over a benign comment that did not name any editor in particular, so why didn't you write anything to Nableezy when he referred to specific editors as "Extremely pro-Zionist and anti-Palestinian"? The Kingfisher (talk) 08:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Your past accounts have the same habit of lying about what a person said. I wrote that certain editors have a history of extremely Zionist and anti-Palestinian editing and that they have a history of edits that are extremely pro-Zionist and anti-Palestinian. And I am more than happy to document that history for any of those editors. Please dont continue that habit of lying through omission of context as your prior accounts. Thank you. nableezy - 15:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Weren't you warned by Drmies a while back to stop this behavior? If you think someone is a sock, then either put up or shut up, you can't just go to all editors and ask them what their prior name was and if they ever edited Wikipedia before. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Dont think I was, no. And yes, yes I can. nableezy - 14:19, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

• Isreali, I'm seconding Shrike's comment on WP:ETHNICITY. She was an Isreali citizen, so the lead should say Isreali.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ThadeusOfNazereth (talk • contribs)
• Palestinian Arab with Israeli citizenship (or similar) or none - she was not estranged from her family, and therefore in the absence of any actual evidence her families statements are wrong, we should accept them as our RSes do. Anything else is frankly offensive. WP:ETHNICITY which people keep citing explicitly says "In most modern-day cases". This is clearly not most, since the evidence we have is this is not how the person identified and so it would be offensive for us to do so. Nil Einne (talk) 09:34, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
• Israeli the current lead is very clunky. There is a relevant RM - Talk:Arab citizens of Israel#Requested move 2 September 2018. Israeli reads better, and is compliant with WP:ETHNICITY, which states Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Piping links to rejected titles is a POV issue. By all means, note self-identity later (as at Haneen Zoabi). ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 16:50, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
• Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship I don't see any compelling reason presented here to minimize what reliable sources have said about her identity. The arguments above like "Well, I can certainly imagine a situation where a family would tell the press that their child was woman, when all of the adult child's friends knew that their friend had identified as a man." don't hold water.Zaki Naggar (talk) 17:38, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
• Palestinian Israeli her family has drawn attention to their (and her) Palestinian and we're going to assume they weren't lying. This fact has been significant in the coverage -- actually I first heard of this from a source that was discussing her family's protests about the media's national identification of her -- so it does happen to be relevant to her notability. On the other hand, am I the only one who who notices that "Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship exchange student" doesn't work grammatically? --Calthinus (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
• Palestinian Israeli, as per reasons outlined by @Calthinus. Its clear and to the point.Resnjari (talk) 21:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

• This isn't rocket science, go with the WP:WEIGHT of the sources. It's not out place to substitute our idiosyncratic interpretations as to what the subject "really was", and to the extent that her nationality is discussed at all in the lead, I see no reason why the present approach (labeling her Palestinian-Israeli (with a piped internal link to Arab citizens of Israel to further clarify matters for those who absolutely have to know her exact background before they proceed with reading an article that is about the brutal murder of a young woman by a sexual predator) would be impermissible or at all a violation of WP:CONTEXT--provided of course that this represents more or less the most common descriptor found in WP:reliable sources.

Now, I haven't done an exhaustive review of the sources, but those I have looked at seem to suggest that Palestinian-Israeli is a fair representation of the aggregate description. If anybody would care to try to change my mind in terms of making a WP:WEIGHT argument, I'm happy to reconsider my !vote, but these other arguments suggesting that we can mention her Israeli-ness, but not her Palestinian-ness, do not, as a policy matter, hold water for me. They very much beg the question of the status of Palestinian identity which are not meant to govern content discussions here in such a way as to subvert the descriptions found prominently in sources. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Palestinian Israeli, is concise and accurate summary of how balance of sources render her 'nation-hood'. If we slavishly followed "what is on her passport", there would be no Scots, Welsh - or English on WP and most of the historically Irish would also all become 'British'. Her ethnicity does not seem explicitly relevant to the event, but a modicum of sensitivity to her wishes, and those of family - and community - insofar as we are able to establish them - seems justified. Pincrete (talk) 12:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• Palestinian Israeli or Arab Israeli surely. Palestinian and Arab are also nationalities, where she is both Palestinian/Arab and Israeli. Scottish, Kurdish, et cetera are obvious examples. It's very disheartening to see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict editors essentially brigading this article and this talk page and bringing their quarrels here, but it can't seem to be avoided. Those editors advocating "Israeli" only be used, they are generally those who edit more sympathetically towards the Israeli government in articles about the conflict. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Arabic people are ethnicly Arabs, not nationally.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.6.69.2 (talk) 00:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

• Israeli, her ethnicity is insignificant.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.6.69.2 (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Can people stop pretending that "Palestinian" is used as an ethnicity here? It is clearly being used as a nationality. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

• Palestinian citizen of Israel - Per nableezy, and sources indicating this would be the subject's personal preference. When there are questions surrounding potentially ambiguous races/ethnicities/nationalities or sexual orientations, it's usually best to defer to the subject. NickCT (talk) 20:07, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Israeli woman - She was born and lived in Israel. Her residence and gender are each relevant to the story (she was a foreign exchange student, she was raped/murdered because she was a woman), but her national/ethnic heritage is not relevant to the story. If it turns out that her Palestinian heritage was a factor in the assault, then she could be described as Israeli woman of Palestinian heritage. Sparkie82 (t•c) 06:33, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• Israeli (invited by the bot) There is no sourcing or basis given for Palestinian. (Other than her parents saying that they consider themselves to be Palestinian). North8000 (talk) 13:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
• None of the above WP:ETHNICITY doesn't require mentioning her nationality in the lead, either. All it says is: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident..." (emphasis added). Doing so makes it seem as if her death was related to the I/P conflict when it was just a random act of violence. She was an exchange student in Australia; let's leave it at that. We can still mention that her hometown was in Israeli territory later in the lead, but extrapolating from the fact of her birth that she was Israeli is inherently contentious because the I/P conflict is all about nationality. Qzekrom 💬 ^they_them 15:41, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  Note: This article currently doesn't go out of its way to call her a "woman", either, although it does refer to her using "she" pronouns and discuss the ensuing "concern about the safety of women." Rape is rape regardless of the victim's gender. Qzekrom 💬 ^they_them 16:02, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Um, Icewhiz, what exactly are the grave BLP concerns? Calling a Palestinian a Palestinian when they want to be called a Palestinian is a BLP violation? The NYTimes cite you use says the following: At the vigil, many people wore black at the organizers’ request, and they remained largely silent to respect the wishes of Ms. Maasarwe’s family. They are from Baqa al-Gharbiyye, a predominantly Arab city in the north of Israel, and identify as Palestinian. As far as CNN, and thanks for having me look, they also call her Palestinian. So too does News.com.au. nableezy - 19:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• I'm also unclear on what BLP concerns are there. We know, from the reports in the media, that Maasarwe's family wishes for her to be identified as Palestinian. If it were the opposite situation, i.e. the family wanted to be identified as Israeli-only, I would understand the concern. But the family is quite specific; it's a compassionate thing for the article to reflect that. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:45, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I find this thread distasteful. This girl’s life and death has nothing to do with the conflict, yet here we are stuck in a political debate. Sometimes self-control is the best path for us - we don’t need to fight this every time. Let’s please try to avoid adding to the family’s trauma. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes i agree wholeheartedly. I saw her father when he was here in Melbourne, it was heartbreaking to say the least. Please everyone, some commonsense needs to be observed for certain situations.Resnjari (talk) 13:36, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• I still don't understand why she should be exempt of WP:ETHNICITY.Her ethnic background played no role in the killing so why it should be in the lead instead of her nationality? --Shrike (talk) 10:38, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

What did her citizenship have to do with her killing? nableezy - 14:18, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Nothing but that how we write biographies we gave person nationality in the lead per our guideline --Shrike (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Since wp:ethnicity was invoked, it states the following "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Aya's ethnicity is notable because apart from the tragic event it became part of the media discourse in Australia (as other editors in the above threads have noted) about her in a major way.Resnjari (talk) 15:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Shrike, that isnt what the guidelines say. What it says is The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. How, in this specific case, is the context of the activity that made Maasarwe notable her citizenship? nableezy - 16:33, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Aya's ethnicity became notable as the media here in Melbourne and wider Australia discussed her background (in addition to her tragic death) and that itself became a discussion point. Look guys, arguing over trivial things like this in no way builds good faith toward each other and leaves a very distasteful residue for other editors that want to edit this article but may refrain from doing so due to things like this.Resnjari (talk) 16:41, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

• The suggestion to ethnic-mark this women in the lede is quite astounding. We routinely remove Jew-marking from the ledes of Jewish-Americans (and Jews throughout the world) - such markings have very unpleasent connotations. The formulation of "Palestinian citizen of Israel") is quite off-putting, try running "Jewish citizen of the United States" (?!?!?!) as a thought experiment. A search for "Jewish citizen of" on all articles leads to 6 hits - pre-20th century, a movie role, and the Berlin office of AP in 1937 (in a ref quote) referring to Helmut Hirsch (proving Goodwin's law - but the search led me there - the Nazies referred to Hirsch this way prior to executing him).Icewhiz (talk) 05:44, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
  • • • Icewhiz: As I have said before: you are comparing apples and oranges. The United States defines itself as a country for all its citizens....it doesn't, say, define itself as a "Christian country". (I imagine that if it had, lots of Jewish Americans would be very unhappy indeed to be only identified as "Americans".) But Israel defines itself as a Jewish country. You really shouldn't be to surprised that the 20−25% who are not Jewish in Israel are not too happy being designated as "Israeli", only. You cannot have the cake, and eat it too, as the expression goes, Huldra (talk) 21:13, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Absent some indication that she was estranged by her parents, they're the most reliable source for her own self-identification, and they indicate that her self-indication weighted her Palestinian identity as primary (The family has contacted media organisations asking for the spelling of the name to be changed to Aya, instead of Aiia - which police had been using based on her passport information - to reflect their wish for her to be identified as Palestinian.). Given that a large number of reliable sources have gone along with this, it seems absurd to suggest that there is anything "astounding" about it. When someone self-identifies as a "Palestinian Arab with Israeli citizenship" or words to that effect, obviously the concern you're describing disappears; and we can see from the large number of news articles that reflected that self-identification (eg. here) that your concerns here are misplaced. Nationality and identification are complicated subjects, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is itself a fraught topic; in situations like this it's best to go with the subject's self-identification as much as possible, at least when we have many reliable sources doing the same. --Aquillion (talk) 06:07, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Ethnic mark, are you kidding me? You want to label a person an Israeli when their family expressly rejects the label. You say calling a person a Palestinian is a BLP violation, despite the several reliable sources that call her that, despite her family requesting she be called that. Absurd, just absurd. nableezy - 11:07, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Several RSes say Israeli. They reject their Israeli citizenship? That I haven't seen. I have seen reporting on her father specifying his preferred ethnic designation (whether this extends to the daughter and rest of the family - is a question). She, and her family, are Israeli citizens, with Israeli passports - there has been no reporting (presented here) of them rejecting or wishing to lose their Israeli status (and one can renounce Israeli citizenship quite easily AFAIK).Icewhiz (talk) 11:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Do you often reply to things people never said? nableezy - 17:36, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

You said "You want to label a person an Israeli when their family expressly rejects the label." Several sources call them Israeli (without Arab nor Palestinian). They are Israeli citizens. No source has beeb presented showing they rejected being Israeli (the father's political preference for Palestinian as ethnicity is not an indication he rejects being Israeli).Icewhiz (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I said they reject the label of Israeli. They do (you cited this news source above, didnt you?). Here's the quote:

The 21-year-old was Palestinian, yet because of the title of her passport, she was described in news reports as Israeli or Arab-Israeli — terms she and her family, like many Palestinians, reject.

nableezy - 18:17, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

How did this turn into an argument about rejecting Israeli citizenship? The tone of this discussion is growing ever more discomforting. A BLP violation? After all this discussion, I am still not able to see why editors would be so strongly opposed to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaki Naggar (talk • contribs) 23:04, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

It turned in to that when User:Icewhiz determined that his personally constructed straw man was easier to answer than my actual comment. nableezy - 15:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• Everything related to the Palestinian identity is controversial. I suspect that many of the people citing WP:ETHNICITY are troubled specifically because they object to someone's self-identification as Palestinian being given the same weight as a national identity. The reasons some people would be concerned about that are obvious and not entirely invalid if it was eg. just editors here arbitrarily choosing to focus on that aspect of her identity as if it were a nationality. But the fact that so many available sources indicate that she identified herself in that manner (and the fact that many sources have gone along with this self-identification) changes things. In cases where we do have a reasonably clear indication that an article's subject preferred a "hyphenated" identification, and where that self-identification has a reasonably high level of support among sources, I feel that it's more appropriate to follow their wishes. There's no reasonable argument that it could harm the subject or misinform the reader in that situation, plenty of reason to think it is relevant, and no particular indication of any other harm it could do; conversely, ignoring a subject's self-identification and downplaying their preferred identity does carry at least some risk of harm. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Chiming in to remind of MOS:NOPIPE. The link to Palestinian-Israeli should not be piped because the redirect will take care of the correct target, which is Arab citizens of Israel. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:54, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spelling

They're showing the verdict against Cody Hermann on 9 News now and the chyron is spelling her name as Aiia. Heepman1997 (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2019 (UTC) P.S. Aiia may have spelled her own name in English as Aya, but the Aiia spelling is the most common in Australia.

See above, news sources generally switched to Aya after the family's wishes were made clear. See for example Times of Israel 2 days ago. nableezy - 20:11, 30 October 2019 (UTC)