Talk:Nagi Yanagi

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nagi Yanagi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zzzoom (talk · contribs) 14:41, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   • It be helpful if some of the tables in Discography were sortable. Also, there are some tables with useless rows in that section.

   Not sure how to do that, maybe @AngusWOOF: can help here. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

   The discography table doesn't need to be sortable but I would recommend title be listed in the first column as with Koda Kumi discography. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 11:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

   • This whole section looks like it could work as a list.

   That's how artist biographies are usually written though, right? A summary of their releases? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

   I suppose so, after looking back. Zoom (talk page) 02:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   • Not sure that this is a source relating to the topic.

   I've replaced it with an archive link; it seems the site got squatted since the time of publication. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

   • It would be helpful in the future to archive all of your references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzzoom (talk • contribs) 22:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

   Is this a requirement or just a recommendation? Just for clarification. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

   Just a recommendation! My bad. Zoom (talk page) 02:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   As I've mentioned to you on Discord, no free images of Yanagi are known to exist, so not much I can do on that end. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   • @Narutolovehinata5:@Juhachi:Just make sure to follow through with the previously mentioned recommendations. Otherwise, good job!

   Pass/Fail:

"Nagi Yanagi" or "Yanaginagi"?

Is "Nagi Yanagi" is true for the name of this page? I don't sure that Nagi Yanagi is her real name (due to her name やなぎなぎ in Japanese is written in hiragana only, not kanji), and at the both her official website (ttps://yanaginagi.net/) and her official Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCty-AHEQn5dkYr2oq6fd4yw), the romaji/Latin script of her stage name is written as "Yanaginagi" (no space), not "Yanagi Nagi" or "Nagi Yanagi". I think this wiki page should be changed to "Yanaginagi" because of her official stage name. Dorakyula (talk) 06:39, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I am from Chinese wiki. I was in the middle of a discussion for changing the article name of the Chinese page, someone had changed it from "Yanaginagi"(in English) to an unofficial Chinese translation, and I proposed reverting to "yanaginagi". It sure is weird that the English page name is "Nagi Yanagi", I have never seen this and it should not be split since it is not a normal last-name-first-name kind of Japanese name, it should be treated as one word. Also, do note that the official name seem to use a lower case "y", hence "yanaginagi" instead of "Yanaginagi". Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 05:26, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus not to adopt the stylized title, as it is not used consistently enough by sources to justify a MOS:BIOEXCEPT exception to standard titling guidelines. Participants were more divided over what name order to use, but the proffered sources appear to indicate that the current title (i.e. Western name order) is more widespread among English-language sources. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Nagi Yanagi → Yanaginagi – current name is wrong, see above for explanation, I cannot move it as I am not autoconfirmed, please make the "y" in the name small letter if possible, thank you. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 09:41, 26 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 14:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose First, "yanaginagi/Nagi Yanagi" (やなぎなぎ) is definitely a pseudonym—for example, in this interview with Nippon Cultural Broadcasting, the first question is about the origin of her name, and she replies that she chose "yanagi" because she likes ja:柳色 ("willow color"; willow = "yanagi" in Japanese) and added "nagi" because the repetition makes it easy to remember. This article should probably make it clearer that it's not her real name.

WP:COMMONNAME says to look at what independent, reliable, English-language sources call her. In this case, the number of sources is fairly small, but a quick search shows that "Nagi Yanagi" is more prevalent in such sources (e.g. [1] [2]).

However, the vast majority of sources about her are in Japanese; WP:UE says that if there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject. In my opinion, Japanese sources clearly treat the pseudonym as a surname + given name rather than a single name. Sources like the above interview, [3] from Animate Times, and [4], [5], and [6] from Natalie shorten her name to "Yanagi" (やなぎ) or call her "Yanagi-san" (やなぎさん), thereby treating "Yanagi" as a surname (and it's a perfectly valid surname). The name on her X profile [7] is "Nagi" (なぎ), a perfectly valid given name. Therefore, since Japanese sources treat やなぎなぎ as a regular Japanese name, I think it's entirely reasonable for the article title to follow the conventional way of romanizing Japanese names specified in WP:JTITLE, which includes a space. Malerisch (talk) 23:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It surely is a pseudonym and not a real name, this is very clear.

Regarding "Japanese sources clearly treat the pseudonym as a surname + given name rather than a single name", I am not so sure. Firstly, please do notice that other names that she had used in the past includes "ガゼル" and "nagi", this can be seen on the ja wiki page.

Shortening "yanaginagi" to "yanagi" does not mean it is treated as a surname. Think Snoop Dogg, you can call him Snoop, that's a "first name" at best, not to mention the full name would be better in most occasions. It also seems that san can be added to both first names and last names, though I don't speak Japanese and can't be sure about this. Shortening a name can also be friendly way to refer to the person, just like saying Alex instead of Alexander, Sam instead of Samuel. I would say claiming the name to be a "surname + given name" or "regular Japanese name" is purely WP:Original research.

Let me put it this way, "やなぎなぎ" is one word, and at least from Japanese sources, I do not think there is any official source (from herself, anime, songs) that shows anything other than "やなぎなぎ" and "yanaginagi"(small letter y, maybe all caps, definitely one word). The interviews you listed all show the full name when mentioning it for the first time, and used abbreviations afterwards. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 07:52, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

We're discussing how to transcribe やなぎなぎ into English—per WP:TRANSCRIPTION, this is not considered original research.

Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PSEUDONYM, the English Wikipedia doesn't (mainly) care about the "official" spelling of a name, and name stylizations are usually removed: e.g. Lisa, not LiSA; Yoasobi, not YOASOBI; Ufotable, not ufotable. (I noticed that the Chinese Wikipedia uses the stylized name as the title for these articles, so perhaps the naming policies for the English and Chinese Wikipedias are different.)

I don't think there's any equivalence between shortening "yanaginagi" to "yanagi" and shortening e.g. "Alexander" to "Alex". There are ways of shortening names in Japanese (e.g. with chan or kun), but san is not normally used for that; it's just attached to Japanese names as a standard sign of respect. It's pretty clear that the interviews treat "Yanagi" as the equivalent of a surname. Malerisch (talk) 11:38, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I fail to recognize why there is a need for transcription in the first place. "yanagiangi" is from official sources and is read exactly the same as "やなぎなぎ", there is not even a "r" "l" problem or "Tokyo" "Tōkyō" problem, unless you read it as "yan-ah-gi-ah-gi" or something. Also there is no reliable source that suggests there should be a space or it should be split.

Choice of "san" over "chan" or "kun" is most likely to maintain a certain level of formality, or as you said, respect, since the interviewer probably did not know her in person.

As for stylizing names, I must say the en wiki rules are strange, but it doesn't bother me too much so I'll leave it there. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 13:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Pinging User:Narutolovehinata5 and User:Juhachi. Since they wrote most of this page and took it to GA, they probably have informed opinions on the matter. I'm a little surprised they haven't commented yet and take this as a sign they may not be aware of this discussion. Toadspike [Talk] 02:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd have to oppose per Malerisch. Although official Japanese sources do use Yanaginagi, English sources are more mixed and if anything lean against using it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

A quick search brings me to Apple Music (us, uk) and Spodify (en), please note that both services show the Japanese name on jp site (Apple Music, Spodify) and to state the obvious, both allow spaces in names but kept "yanaginagi", also note they do adopt the western name order for names like Konomi Suzuki (Apple Music, Spodify). Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 03:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose I'm also inclined to oppose a name change, mainly because there is no obvious reason to switch the article title to Yanaginagi per the use of Nagi Yanagi prevalent in English sources, and that Japanese sources, both third-party and primary, do not have a set pattern in how they refer to this artist, as shown by Malerisch above. Even ANN used both "Nagi Yanagi" and "yanaginagi" in articles less than a month apart last year: [8], [9].--十八 19:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there reliable source that uses "Nagi yanagi"? Regarding the 2 links that you provided, I would say the first one seems a bit more reliable, it is a "press release" about a CD release and a live concert event, whereas the second article is "news" and the sources listed on the are Japanese sources, which meant the writer probably did some translations. I would say a large proportion of "Nagi yanagi" on the internet got the name from en wiki, which would make it WP:CIRCULAR and WP:CITOGENESIS? Imagine a laymen seeing the Japanese string ""やなぎなぎ" for the first time, they dump it into Google to see what that is, and guess what they will see first. Searching "yanaginagi" gives me results like official website, socials, Apple Music and Spotify, whereas for "Nagi yanagi" you get a bunch of WP:USERGENERATED. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 12:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if the hits are user generated; if anything, they might actually be more useful in certain cases since they can show how people in general refer to something. If more user generated sources call her "Nagi Yanagi" and not "Yanaginagi", an argument could be made that Nagi Yanagi is the more common name. WP:COMMONNAME is relevant here. It's not always the case that the official title is the most appropriate title for an article, or even if it's the most used. We don't call the book "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life," we just call it On the Origin of Species. Similarly, while the official English title for Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai is "Haganai: I Don't Have Many Friends," our article just calls it Haganai.

I would also suggest avoiding replying to every single editor that opposes your opinion as it may give other editors the impression that you are bludgeoning the process. If ultimately consensus goes against the rename then so be it. For what it's worth, I would have preferred LiSA's article to remain at that title and not Lisa, but ultimately that opinion is against consensus and I have to live with that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 21:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support. I think WP:COMMONNAME is not very helpful here when the sources are inconsistently switching between the two variants. Now I obviously oppose "yanaginagi" because it is a stylisation, but i do not see the problem with using "Yanagi Nagi". Maybe we should disregard ANN here because it has inconsistently mentioned the artist and measure other sources that have consistently used one variant, such as Billboard and Arama Japan. (if we exclude "official" sources, we are left with a lot of user-generated sources, and "Yanagi Nagi" is more prevalent in such sources.) Also, in almost all of the interviews i could find, "Yanagi Nagi" was more prevalent. Lunar-akaunto／talk 17:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Apologies, but I'm going to retract my previous comment here because, though Billboard mentions her as Yanagi Nagi, it mentions other artists too in native order, for example, Yonezu Kenshi. About Arama Japan–so a while back i stumbled upon this Wikipedia list of unreliable sources, and it was listed there. I can't find it in the list anymore, if someone does know about it, please link me to it. But Arama Japan is also mentioning other artists with their stylisations but hasn't done the same for Yanagi; now I'm not sure what to make of it.

About Anime News Network: it has always consistently mentioned the artist as Nagi Yanagi; see, it has only in one instance mentioned her as "yanaginagi," but that's the stylisation. In proper English without stylisation, it uses Nagi Yanagi. Also note that even her official website header reads Nagi Yanagi; "https://yanaginagi.net : やなぎなぎ OFFICIAL WEBSITE - Nagi Yanagi"

This is pretty much cased closed as not moved if we're going for reliable third party unofficial sources. This discussion can definitely go on longer, but I only see the end result as "Nagi Yanagi". But if we're going for WP:COMMONNAME, definitely "Yanagi Nagi" without a doubt. Maybe disregard her official website, all music services refer to her as "yanaginagi". Now we were supposed to write it as "Yanagi Nagi" (stylized as yanaginagi) but instead we changed the order to western based on ANN and Crunchyroll. These are the only two independent, reliable sources I could find that refer to her as such. The entire fandom refers to her as "Yanagi Nagi", which includes YouTube videos, fandom wiki, random forum posts, quite literally anything user-generated present in abundance. The majority of all of them refer to her as "Yanagi Nagi".

Also, I would suggest changing "stylized as yanaginagi (やなぎなぎ)" to "stylized as yanaginagi" because "yanaginagi" is the stylisation used in English, right? So, "やなぎなぎ" is not really needed because they always mention their names without spaces in Japanese, and since she never used "yanaginagi" in Japanese, that makes "やなぎなぎ" not a stylisation at all. Lunar-akaunto／talk 13:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Adjusting the first sentence

Currently it will be difficult to reach consensus to change the article title, but I believe there is good reason to modify the first sentence.
For singers and artists, the first sentence usually state the real name first, then the stage name. In the current state of this article, it will mislead the reader into thinking that "Nagi Yanagi" is her real name. I propose changing the structure of the first line to something similar to:
Yanaginagi (やなぎなぎ, born May 31, 1987), stylized as yanaginagi and commonly known as Nagi Yanagi, is......
I think that official stylization is yanaginagi should be made clear, and should somehow mention that Nagi Yanagi is commonly used in English/western world, and finally the Japanese "やなぎなぎ" should never have a space in-between. Saying Nagi Yanagi, stylized as yanaginagi would be slightly inaccurate (yanaginagi is stylization of Yanaginagi, Nagi Yanagi is "invented" by the west), and would give false impression that it is a real name. Adding the origin of her name in the first paragraph or top section can also help convey the stage name not being her real name.
pinging@Narutolovehinata5@Juhachi@Lunar-akaunto for advice. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 23:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Uh-huh. But it is still a pseudonym, no? From what i know, her real name is unknown, right? So phrasing it like that would imply that's her real name. Secondly, mentioning commonly used in the englih/western world is not needed, no? Readers would know that this is not the original but the romanised name. Lastly, i wouldn't say invented by the west because i am sure the artist would have some degree of control over her name, which is known to English viewers. For example, see Hiroyuki Sawano. Lunar-akaunto／talk 03:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe my choice of words was not good enough, I will try to explain in another way. The article should start with the real/native name, but we do not know her real name. Comparing "yanaginagi" and "Nagi Yanagi", "yanaginagi" would be a "real-er" and "more native" name, hence should appear first. I will state this again, "Nagi Yanagi" is not used in official sources including her official website, Apple music, Spotify and so on. "やなぎなぎ" has no space in between, there is no reason to show it with a space, hence, the first sentence should start with "Yanaginagi". For romanization, you will get "Yanaginagi" from "やなぎなぎ", hence I would think it is better to mention where "Nagi Yanagi" came from. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 05:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

In the requested move, we established that "yanaginagi" is a stylized title. Unstylized titles are usually placed first, while stylized titles usually come later and are stated as such. There are countless examples of this: Lisa, Me:I, Ty Dolla Sign, ASAP Rocky, Pink, The Kid Laroi, etc., etc., so why should this article be any different?

As for a space in "やなぎなぎ", although Japanese doesn't normally put spaces between surnames and given names, it is the norm on the English, Japanese, and Chinese Wikipedias to include the space when writing the native name in the first sentence (example: en, ja, zh) to indicate the boundary between the two parts of the name. Again, the requested move above established that it's a name (albeit pseudonymous), so it should follow norms.

Perhaps the first sentence could mention "pseudonym" or "pseudonymous", like e.g. Nisio Isin, but otherwise, I don't think it needs to be changed. Malerisch (talk) 21:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion does not contradict your first 2 points.

"yanaginagi" is indeed stylized, unstylized version would be "Yanaginagi", as shown in my suggestion. Your examples (Lisa, Ty Dolla Sign, ASAP Rocky, Pink, The Kid Laroi) show that the name that shows first does not need to be the same as article title, and in these cases the person's real(or romanized native real) name is used. For this article, "やなぎなぎ" is obviously the native name.

For the space problem, please point out the space in her name in the ja and zh article. There is no space especially in her native name. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 00:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami: So you want to change it to something like this? Yanagi Nagi (やなぎ なぎ, born May 31, 1987), stylized as yanaginagi (やなぎなぎ), more commonly known as Nagi Yanagi, is a…

But wouldn't this imply that you have retracted your original argument, which initiated the Move discussion, and have now agreed that Nagi Yanagi is the more common name? Well, whatever it is, this lead is fine (in my opinion and legibility, at least). I'm not going to debate this since i stand by my previous stance. You may discuss with others, and if they do agree, you might as well include a footnote clarifying that it is her stage name and her real name remains unknown. Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I must say, I do not know much about the artist myself. I have posted my reasoning as to why the page should have been moved. But this is not much of a discussion when nobody actually discusses it.

See, @Malerisch begins his argument by saying it is not her real name (does it matter whether it is or not? Especially when her real name is unknown, we're talking about her current name order, real or not.) Her twitter display name is certainly Nagi, but it's obvious it's because of how なぎ is present twice in the full name やなぎなぎ and makes up a good display name. You say WP:UE and then deduce the last name on the basis of さん. How does that make sense? さん is not used just behind last names. What do you think about the use of the same here in Fuji Kaze's interview? (Would you put up the argument that Kaze is his last name because it is a valid name and how they have addressed him here several times as 風さん?) or n-buna/suis' interview. I don't even understand how WP:TRANSCRIPTION can be brought in for the name. Yes, definitely not original research, but how can one not argue that possibly Natalie just addressed them as Yanagi because it doesn't matter because it is a pseudonym anyway?

@Juhachi has said Nagi Yanagi is prevalent in English sources. But that's not true. All sources present in the article are in Japanese. ANN is the only English source that has referred to her as Nagi Yanagi.

At last, @Narutolovehinata5 mentions WP:USERGENERATED. That just settles it, because if you're going with that, clearly, Yanagi Nagi is more common. A Google search has 3,98,000 hits for Yanagi Nagi, while Nagi Yanagi has 3,35,000. 63k is a significant amount of difference (i tried searching several times and always there's an average of at least 55k hits difference in both; you can check it for yourself). I must also note that even the album names refer to her as Yanagi Nagi. I have never seen any artist name order preserved when translating album titles that contain their name. Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is feeling more and more like WP:STICK in that consensus was already against moving the page but there's still a desire to move the page anyway. Given the recency of the discussion I would suggest tabling this in the meantime; the question could always be revisited after several months. It's just not a good look to essentially request for a new page move anyway after a discussion had just been closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Definitely, the discussion would be closed, and it would feel more and more like WP:STICK if you just moved away without addressing others' concerns. As I said, you have posted your reasons for why you oppose the move. But how is it reasonable when you just move away without answering? Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, nobody discusses it or even addresses any of the reasonings i made. it's sad.

A discussion is, well, we all put up our supports or opposes based on what we believe, and we then discuss them, right? Hypothetically, say I went with oppose and listed my reasoning well because why not? Would that be valid? No. Then, how is this discussion, or it being closed valid when the reasonings for oppose are flawed.

I'm not sure when it is appropriate to re-start a discussion when it has just closed. I'll try asking someone who knows and posting here when appropriate. I'll take my leave until then. Lunar-akaunto／talk 05:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Lunar-akaunto, you're slightly misunderstanding my argument. First, the pseudonym part isn't the main part of my argument, but I added it because there appeared to be some confusion over it in the previous section. Second, my argument over "san" isn't that "Yanagi" is a surname, as you're correct that it can be attached to both given names and surnames, but that "Yanaginagi" isn't a mononym (a single name), which is what the nominator was arguing. So in your examples, this would correspond to "Kaze" being a part of his name, and "n-buna" being a part of the duo, rather than "Fujiikaze" being a single name and "n-buna/suis" being a single person.

Lastly, WP:HITS are not reliable, and even if they were, you need to put quotes around your search terms. With "Nagi Yanagi" [10], I get 152,000 results, and with "Yanagi Nagi" [11], I get 83,900 results, so it's not clear that even user-generated results favor "Yanagi Nagi". (The exact numbers vary from search to search, but I consistently get more results for the former when using quotes.) Malerisch (talk) 05:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I thought they were arguing whether to change the article title to that of the stylisation, which i already disapproved of earlier. My answers to you and Juhachi addressed your reasons, in the sense that the end result is correct but the reasoning incorrect.

My third answer was based on hits, but my bad. As you pointed out, we need to include quotes when searching. Mmm, well, that's true. When searching with quotes, Nagi Yanagi yields more results. But is it just me, or are you seeing "Nagi Yanagi" results when searching "Yanagi Nagi" and vice versa? Like the headings of videos/websites start with one and then contain the other variant mixed up in the description and elsewhere. But well, it still remains that the current article title bears more results. So that's it, then. Why didn't you respond earlier? Lunar-akaunto／talk 06:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is "Yanaginagi" is not a mononym? Is there a space in her name in the ja and zh article? Other wiki articles can't be used as source, but I would image the ja page of a Japanese person would more accurately reflect her name compared to English sources? I had a classmate who is Japanese, his first name is Harutoshi(元俊), and his Japanese friends calls him "Haru". Japanese names (both first name and last name) can often be "split" into two or even more meangingful japanese words, a simple example is Aoyama, "ao"(青, blue) and "yama"(山, mountain). As you already know, "Yanaginagi" comes from "yanagi"(柳), and "nagi" is also commonly used as a name (凪). A word can be split means it can be split, not must. I acknowledge that "Yanaginagi" is less commonly used in English context, but the native name is "やなぎなぎ", again, without a space. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 06:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I somewhat agree with what you say, but we obviously can't write it as やなぎなぎ here. So we use rōmaji instead. Now that there's disagreement over what format we should use, we look at sources available in English, but since that's mixed up too, we look at what's the common name, or rather, how many hits a web search gives. Lunar-akaunto／talk 06:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, just searched up "yanaginagi" with quotes, and, well, to my surprise, it has even more hits than "Nagi Yanagi". What do you think about this, Malerisch?

My thoughts about this are that WP:HITS are unreliable, and not how WP:COMMONNAME is evaluated. It's also obviously a stylization, which doesn't usually go in an article title. Malerisch (talk) 06:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

But then, how do we evaluate WP:COMMONNAME? We won't obviously write it as "yanaginagi" but "Yanaginagi". Wouldn't it be better to just change it to Yanaginagi (やなぎなぎ, born May 31, 1987), stylized as yanaginagi, is a… rather than deducing what the first or last name is? @Narutolovehinata5, since you first mentioned that WP:USERGENERATED may be more helpful, what do you think about this? To reiterate, "Yanagi Nagi" has 1,68,000 hits, "Nagi Yanagi" has 2,50,000 hits, and "Yanaginagi" has 8,88,000 hits. How can we justify going against it and official sources based on just ANN? and when it is not even clear whether Japanese media treats it as a mononym or proper name? Lunar-akaunto／talk 07:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The sources Malerisch gave already treat Yanagi as a surname in Japanese. Generally, these sources call personalities by their surname and not by their given name (i.e. "Hanazawa" and not "Kana"). It's clear that "Yanagi" is being treated as a surname here. Per MOS, generally Japanese people are called on the English Wikipedia in Western order unless there are very good reasons not to do so (it should be noted that despite commonly being called Utada Hikaru even in English, her article is currently at Hikaru Utada); even then, such cases are exceptions not the norm. Given that even English sources are at best conflicted about "Nagi Yanagi" or "Yanagi Nagi" I see no good reason to change the status quo at this point. I have to repeat that this point is really bordering on WP:STICK given how it is basically disagreeing with the discussion despite consensus being reached already. Consensus can change, yes, but having this discussion again so soon after the last one is bordering on WP:STICK if not WP:BLUDGEON. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: First, you didn't even read this. Malerisch above said, …my argument over "san" isn't that "Yanagi" is a surname,. You say generally that they mention them using their surname; yes, of course, that's the case for English interviews too. But this is not a general case. As i already explained above, listing Fuju Kaze's interview; using さん to decide what the first or last name is is not valid. Secondly, that what you keep listing is an essay, and this is not beating the dead horse, but since i doubt this discussion will go on any further without you repeatedly showing me the WP:STICK, I'll be taking my leave now. But before i go, I suggest you post your reason for using the WP:USERGENERATED argument when it was in your favour and now ignoring it when it is not. Lunar-akaunto／talk 08:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, although "san" alone doesn't mean it's a surname, since it's attached to the first part of her name, Japanese names are written surname-first, and Yanagi is a common surname, there is no reason not to treat "Yanagi" as a surname. Malerisch (talk) 08:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

How about this, googling "やなぎなぎ" "やなぎなぎさん" or "やなぎなぎ" "なぎさん" will give 50x results compared to "やなぎなぎ" "やなぎさん", this can hardly be dismissed by "unreliable" or "insignificant difference", even considering the overlap of "やなぎなぎさん", "なぎさん", "やなぎさん", 50x is too much. なぎ and nagi should both be treated as nicknames, if you don't see reliable source showing a space in the Japanese name, how can you justify adding it. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 10:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami I'll be off to contributing elsewhere on Wikipedia for now. I suggest you do the same. As I said below, the consensus is against this, and we have already put forward our points. We can maybe someday discuss this again if, after this, new reliable sources are published, but for now, it looks futile. Do know that there's no hurry; the talk page will still be here later, and we can be here once again. bye~bye. Lunar-akaunto／talk 11:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, using English-language reliable sources like ANN and Crunchyroll is how WP:COMMONNAME is generally determined (please read the policy or read other requested moves for details, like WP:UE), even if there are vastly more unreliable sources. Malerisch (talk) 08:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but do note that it was not me who first brought up this argument. It was Naruto who said so. It doesn't really matter if the hits are user generated; if anything, they might actually be more useful in certain cases since they can show how people in general refer to something. If more user generated sources call her "Nagi Yanagi" and not "Yanaginagi", an argument could be made that Nagi Yanagi is the more common name. WP:COMMONNAME is relevant here.. I only ever put forward "yanaginagi" user-generated sources because there didn't seem to be active resistance against using those sources. Lunar-akaunto／talk 11:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a space in the first sentence of the Japanese article, but that may be because "やなぎなぎ" is also her stylized/professional name, which the Japanese Wikipedia seems to prefer in article titles and first sentences; it doesn't mean that it's a mononym. By the way, you may notice that the ja:やなぎなぎ article also has phrases like "やなぎについて" (about Yanagi), "やなぎさん" (Yanagi-san), and "やなぎ曰く" (according to Yanagi), so it doesn't exactly support your stance.

Yes, Japanese names can be shortened to a nickname, like I mentioned earlier, but it would be strange to call Harutoshi "Haru-san". Malerisch (talk) 06:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Ja.wiki always preserves stylisations in article titles, but no matter the name, in the lead, spaces the kanji and is always followed by a hiragana transcription. But since here the name itself is in Hiragana, they have not done that. But that doesn't make much sense to me because if they did it as a proper name, they would certainly space it in the lead at least. That all the more supports it's a mononym. Secondly, about using only やなぎ to mention in the rest of the article, I'm not so sure why they did that because if they did treat it as a mononym, they would use the full mononym to mention here; maybe they have used some other logic here. Wouldn't it be better to ask someone at ja.wiki who's fluent in English for an opinion on this? Lunar-akaunto／talk 07:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

This is completely unnecessary, as 1) the Japanese Wikipedia is not a reliable source, 2) I'm pretty sure we're translating the Japanese just fine, 3) there is no reason to assume that they'd have any special insight about this person, and 4) they would probably not be familiar with the English Wikipedia's MoS. Malerisch (talk) 08:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Uh-huh. Well, the consensus is against moving the article or altering the lead, and i have already made my points. I respect that you have answered my questions, even though you were not obliged to. Thank you. I'll take my leave then. Lunar-akaunto／talk 11:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Malerisch@Narutolovehinata5@Juhachi, I would like clarification on this: do you at least not oppose (hence will not revert) my proposed change of the first sentence to "Yanaginagi (やなぎなぎ, Yanaginagi, born May 31, 1987), stylized as yanaginagi and commonly known as Nagi Yanagi, is......", or similar alternatives with same structure? If the answer is positive I believe no further discussion will be needed. My main points are as follows:

1. "Yanaginagi" should appear first
2. "やなぎなぎ" has no space
3. "yanaginagi" is stylization for "Yanaginagi", not "Nagi Yanagi" (debatable)
4. "Nagi Yanagi" kept in first sentence as common name, appear after "Yanaginagi"
5. State that real name is unknown, all current names are pseudonyms (optional)

As long as point 1,2,4 are agreed, further discussion would not be necessary. Unless you strongly disagree with this suggestion, I hope to keep the discussion short and focus on agreeing on a new first sentence based on the above 3 to 5 points.

P.S. I do not agree this is WP:STICK, the previous discussion was about article title, hence per WP:COMMONNAME, my previous suggestion was not sufficiently justified. The current issue is about the first sentence, which the first appearance of a person's name is usually MOS:FULLNAME followed by MOS:BIOALTNAME. I believe my suggestion compared to the current version is more align with MOS and can avoid misleading the reader. Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there no reason why we can't just go with "Nagi Yanagi, stylized as yanaginagi"? It is clear from Japanese sources and other mentions online that they treat "Yanagi" as a "surname" (obviously not a real name but they treat it as such), and it's consistent with how other similar articles are treated on Wikipedia (see LiSA's as an example). I see no reason why not to put "Nagi Yanagi" as the first name to be mentioned rather than the stylized version. Indeed, if you read the MOS you will see that most articles give the person's real name or at least the non-stylized version of their name first instead of their stage name. For example, "Taylor Alison Swift is an American singer-songwriter" or "Andre Romell Young, known professionally as Dr. Dre", and not "Dr. Dre, born Andre Romell Young."

As for the other points, we cannot say #5 in the article itself without a source, because doing so would be original research or synthesis. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how LiSA helps with your point, "Lisa" is obviously a name (not surname), whereas "Yanaginai" is one word, and "treated as first name + last name" (this seem more like a logical deduction than provable fact). Not sure if there is a definition for "stylize", but I personally think it as "using upper/lower case, 3 as E, 0 as O" or similar, "Nagi Yanagi" splits the word and changes the order, I personally would not see that as "stylization". But again, this is "debatable", though I prefer my version.

MOS says full name first then alt name. Is "Yanaginagi" "full name" or "alt name"? Is "Nagi Yanagi" "full name" or "alt name"? "Yanaginagi" is original hence not "alt", we do not know the real name hence should not treat "Nagi Yanagi" as the "full name".

For point 5 what sort of source would be suitable? Would this interview work? Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 02:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I gave LiSA as an example because it's another example of an anison artist who goes under a pseudonym. The point I was trying to make is that the lede starts with her real name or full name and not her stage name (i.e. "Risa Oribe, known professionally as Lisa" and not "Lisa, born Risa Oribe" or some equivalent). Actually, the relevant guidelines here are probably MOS:FULLNAME, MOS:BIOALTNAME, and MOS:PSEUDONYM. Well technically "Nagi Yanagi" is a pseudonym as well, but for the purposes of the article it's treated as her "full name" and so should be presented first. I really don't understand why the apparent insistence on putting "Yanaginagi" first in the lede when that would not only create further clutter but also create a non-standard lede. The links I gave give multiple examples of similar cases to her, meaning we have precedent to follow. I understand that the English Wikipedia isn't your home wiki and your home wiki may have different guidelines and practices, but that's how things work here and generally we have to follow EN's MOS.

As for the real name unknown thing, that doesn't have to be in the lede as it would just create unnecessary clutter and is not necessarily an important detail for a lede section. At most, it can be included in the biography (again, per the MOS). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

My major concern is readers getting the impression that "Nagi Yanagi" is her real name, due to this "consistency". What is her real name, full name, and stage name? Answer to the first 2 should be "unknown". I disagree "treating" "Nagi Yanagi" as her real name, because, well, it isn't. Another thing is that since "やなぎなぎ", the only native name she uses, does not have a space (hope we can agree on this at least), the corresponding English name in front of that should be "Yanaginagi". Sohryu Asuka Langley Not Shikinami (talk) 07:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)