Talk:Petter chamor

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Article name

The majority of times that I've seen it described in newspaper articles it's been referred to as Petter Chamor and in the rest of the articles I've seen it's been referred to as Peter Chamor. I haven't seen it referred to anywhere as Redemption of a donkey. It would make sense for the article title to be Petter Chamor, which is it's most commonly used name, and the other names can be redirects. --PiMaster3 ^talk 23:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PiMaster3, what was the name of the newspaper?

Consulting Google Books and Google Scholar with various variables the overwhelming preference supports WP:naming conventions (use English), e.g. Google Books In ictu oculi (talk) 03:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The JE articles on FIRST-BORN / PRIMOGENITURE use the English "redemption of the first-born of an ass", as we can't use ass today, modern versions tend to use donkey. Mainstream English language texts don't insert Hebrew for "donkey". In ictu oculi (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The orginal article that I cited from the Jewish Press (the link is now broken), this one from Matzav, this one from J-Wire, and many other articles and Youtube videos refer to it as Petter Chamor. This article from Vos Iz Neias and many others discussing the same event in Hawaii that happened recently refer to it as Peter Chamor. Maybe something similar to the Pidyon haben article can be done where both the commonly used Hebrew name can be used and the English translation can be written right after it. "The Pidyon HaBen, (Hebrew: פדיון הבן) or Redemption of the first born son, is a mitzvah in Judaism whereby..."--PiMaster3 ^talk 19:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PiMaster3, unfortunately none of these look like WP:RS, but self-published blog and webpages, youtube etc, wheras WP:RS requires mainstream published books and scholarly articles. WP article Pidyon HaBen isn't a good example since that's also in breach of WP:EN and WP:RS, although at least in the case of redemption of a firstborn it is a practice with some use of the Hebrew term in WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Jewish Press is a print newspaper that's been around for over 50 years. The other sources listed are internet based newspapers, not self-published blogs. Also, in this context we're not really using their content, just seeing what the common usage name is. --PiMaster3 ^talk 19:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, a newspaper might be an appropriate source for current day events, but usually what WP:RS requires for a historical/religious subject is books or articles. That doesn't mean that The Jewish Press article wouldn't be a reliable/useful source for providing an article on present-day application of the redemption of the first born of an ass, but it doesn't outweigh all the Google Books and Google Scholar sources which use English. Not just academic sources, but also liturgical sources such as Code of Jewish law: (Kitzur Shulḥan Aruḥ). Solomon ben Joseph Ganzfried, Joseph ben Ephraim Karo - 1963 "Priests and Levites need not redeem the firstborn of an ass. Their daughters, too, are exempt from performing this precept, but their husbands must redeem the firstborn of their asses. " etc. Try searching Google Scholar and you'll see the point. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Move log); 00:57 . . Lisa (talk | contribs)‎ moved Talk:Redemption of a donkey to Talk:Petter Chamor (moved without consensus)
(Move log); 00:57 . . Lisa (talk | contribs)‎ moved Redemption of a donkey to Petter Chamor over redirect (moved without consensus)

Lisa,

Would you like to please contribute to discussion here and provide e.g. Google Books evidence that Hebrew is more common in English language WP:RS texts than English for this term? Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 03:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When you decide to wait for discussion before engaging in unilateral moves, you can make such requests. Until then, stop being disruptive. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Based on In Ictu's poor presentation (cherry picking?) of sources supporting his attempted move of Talk:B'rov am hadrat melech (see the move request on the discussion page), I recommend that his presentation of sources here be taken with a grain of salt until someone else has had the time to check the sources independently with Google Book Search. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, I merely invited you there to try using Google Books. I didn't state that the results are 1x the current romanization v 2,770x for the suggested English version. Now, what about applying WP:Article titles etc. policies for this article? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move and keep article as is per PiMaster3 and Lisa. In this case, the Hebrew names is on the dot correct, like most names for any of the 613 mitzvot. The problem is that In ictu has come along with motions for sweeping changes like this all over the place that has just engendered WP:DISRUPT and near WP:WAR more than anything else. More WP:CONSENSUS is required otherwise such suggested changes just amount to being railroaded into In ictu's WP:POV. So let's all ease up and make improvements to the articles' WP:CONTENT rather than quibble over headings that can easily be accommodated by WP:REDIRECTS! See Category:Hebrew words and phrases for thousands of instances where transliterated Hebrew language words are legitimately used in WP articles. IZAK (talk) 05:58, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Talmud Chullin reference

In ictu oculi added a reference saying that it was discussed in Talmud Chullin but did not say where in there it was. The only section that I could find that mentions Petter Chamor is 134a, but this discussion of it doesn't seem very relevant to the article. If someone can find the specific part where it's mentioned I'll add it, but otherwise it seems like it should be removed from the article. --PiMaster3 ^talk 19:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hersh Goldwurm

So.. WP:Article titles requires only that a demonstrated English term exists. Is there a more common English term than Hersh Goldwurm's phrase?

Talmud Bavli: Tractate Bechoros vol.1 Hersh Goldwurm, Nosson Scherman - 2003 "When the second Baraisa states that there is no redemption of a donkey bechor less than thirty days, it means that one does not commit a violation if he delays the redemption up to thirty days from birth; from that point onward, ..."
Talmud Bavli: the Gemara : the classical Vilna edition Hersh Goldwurm - 1990 "The Sages, because they do not expound the hekeish between pidyon haben and peter chamor, see the redemption of a donkey as comparable to the redemption of maaser sheni — meaning, the owner's responsibility is fulfilled through the mere ..."

redemption of the first born of a donkey and redemption of an ass aren't particularly numerous, 4x each, but do demonstrate that English exists. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wish you'd stop misrepresenting Wikipedia rules. Going to WP:Article titles#English-language titles, it says "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language. However, it must be remembered that the English language contains many loan words and phrases taken from other languages. If a word or phrase (originally taken from some other language) is commonly used by English language sources, it can be considered to be an English language word or phrase (example: Coup d'état)."

What this means is not that if an English term exists, it needs to be used. It's that if a word or a phrase taken from some other language is commonly used by English language sources, it can be considered to be an English word or phrase. That being the case, the vast majority of your attempted moves would seem to be both unnecessary and ill-considered. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, (WP:NPA again please), the WP policy shows that the English term doesn't have to be most common (although in this case it arguably is, it depends what one inputs into Google Books) it only has to exist, yes = commonly used by English language sources as I have repeated pasted for you on various Talk pages. It's good that you've read it. Therefore, the question is, is the term "redeem/redemption of a donkey/ass" commonly used by English language sources in discussing this topic? Yes or no? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional details required

Could someone please explain what the phrase, "a firstborn donkey is redeemed by gifting a lamb" actually means? Why does the donkey need to be redeemed?, what does redemption mean in this context?, who is gifting the lamb? and why does this gift of a lamb have the effect of redeeming the donkey? Please do not answer here on the talk page, add these points to the article to improve it. Thanks. Cottonshirt τ 08:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not only that, but the article buries the lede, which is that the owner of the donkey is obliged to behead the donkey foal if they do not redeem it. Vonfraginoff (talk) 19:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]