Talk:Piotr Skarga/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Dudley Miles (talk · contribs) 22:09, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I will take this. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:09, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• I have made some copy edits. Change any you do not like.

• The lead image is unsatisfactory. It is clearly a distorted image, even though the same editor took a better photo - see right. There is no provenance and the licensing is wrong - see the correct PDArt licensing for the Matejko picture. It is described as "Anonymous 18th-century rendering" and in category 18th-century portraits in the Royal Castle, Warsaw. The JPG portrait is described as 17C before 1612, so in Skarga's lifetime. This needs checking with the Royal Castle - what date is it and is it really anonymous? Also "rendering" is the wrong word. It should be "portrait".
  • Ugh. User:Mathiasrex has taken the picture twice, labelled it differently both times, it's a mess. It's a bad image on many levels; also because I have trouble IDing it with in any of the academic sources (and I found at least two) discussing his image: [1], [2] (do you think it's the one on p.305 here?), [3]. But anyway, given the crappy quality of the pic, how about replacing it with File:Piotr Skarga.PNG? File:Piotr Skarga.JPG is another problematic painting by the same uploader with similar ID issues. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I don't know. I think the image above is much the best portrait. The problem is either that it has gone dark or the photo makes it appear that way. How about the bust below?

      

      • The current File:Piotr Skarga.PNG seems pretty good. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• I am inclined to agree with the previous reviewer in preferring a short background paragraph, especially on the mid-16C religious conflict in Poland, but it is not a requirement.
• The lead is a bit short. I would suggest a few (not many) more details about his career and add that the only biography by ... was published in 1978.
  • I have expanded the lead [4]. Is this sufficient? If not, what else would you add there? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• "His family are often described as lesser landless szlachta (gentry, or nobility), but recent ancestors had likely been peasants, later townsfolk who had become minor nobility.[1] He was reared at the family estate" I found this confusing. Presumably wrongly described as landless? Ancestors had been peasants but had moved to the town of x (what town?) and become minor nobility with a family estate?
  • I tried clarifying it here. Is it better? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• "For two years he served as rector of the collegiate school at St. John's Church in Warsaw." This needs clarifying. Was it in 1555 after he finished his education and was he appointed head of the school straight away at the age of 19?
  • Could be; I won't have access to the source book until mid-July, I am afraid. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Sources checked: yes, clarified. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• "chancellor of the Lwów chapter" What was the chancellor - head? - and what was the Lwów chapter?
  • I am not an expert on religious terminology; I can double check with the source in July. But yeas, he would be the head of the Lwow chapter. See chapter (religion). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Chapter's chancellor meant he had to represent the chapter, as in - was responsible for is correspondence/negotiations with other religious and secular organizations. Do you think this should be added to the article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• "chaplain to the castellan and royal secretary[11] Jan Krzysztof Tarnowski" How about "chaplain to Jan Krzysztof Tarnowski, castellan and secretary to King Sigismund II Augustus"?
  • Done.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• "An active agent of counter-reformation" Agent has connotations of secret agent. How about leading proponent?
  • Agreed, done.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• "a major work" sounds a bit POV. How about "one of his most important works"
  • Done.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• "Publication of one of Skarga's replies to Wolan, Artes duodecim Sacramentariorum... around 1580-1581 caused an incident which included book burning, a condemnation by king Stefan Batorya" This is confusing and needs expansion. Whose book was burned and which side was the king on?
  • Presumably of his opponents, but again I won't be able to check the source until mid-July.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Upon second reading, this book burning incident is not relevant to Skaraga, it just occurred at the same time in Poland. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• "In 1584 Skarga was transferred to the new Jesuit College at Kraków." Probably no change needed but just to clarify the word "transferred". I assume as a Jesuit he was moved by his superiors and he did not have a choice whether to move?
  • Yes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• "the charity, Mount of Piety: Bank Pobożny (the Pious Bank)" This is confusing. How about "the Mount of Piety, a pawnbroker run as a charity and called in Polish the Bank Pobożny (the Pious Bank)"
• "confronted masses of the nobility," "masses" of the does not sound right - the majority of the nobility? Also presumably the king won the civil war but you should say so.
  • Done ("confronted a popular movement among the nobility, led"). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Further comments

• No problem waiting until mid-July for checking sources.
  • Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
• For balance, you should mention in the lead that he was an opponent of religious toleration
  • Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• "when he was seen as the "patriotic seer" who predicted the partitions of Poland." This seems like a non-sequitur.
  • Why? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• "taking the position of the chapter's becoming its preacher." Grammar has gone wrong.

You have missed this comment. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:45, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Dudley Miles: Clarified. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• "That year he also finished an important work" Sounds POV - you could say "one of his most important works"
  • Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• "From the Polish Enlightenment on, his works, penned in Polish rather than in Latin," This could do with being clarified. I would specify Polish Enlightenment in the middle of the eighteenth century. Also, were theological works generally written in Latin before his time and was he a pioneer of writing in Polish?
  • Clarified, and I am not sure, I am afraid. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• "Skarga's cause for beatification was inaugurated on 12 June 2013." What does inaugurated mean here - formally proposed or a later stage in the process?
  • Formally proposed, I believe. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• Was Tazbir's the only biography? You should say so or mention other works about him.
  • I believe so, but I can't find a source for saying so. Otherwise it would be WP:OR, I am afraid. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• The full name of his biography should not be given in each reference, it could be e.g. Tazbir, Piotra Skarga, p. x. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I thought that was only a recommendation, not a requirement in the MoS? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Query

Piotrus, Dudley Miles, where does this nomination stand? It's been about six weeks since the last edit on the article, and the subsequent comments by Dudley Miles above. If the review is to stay open, some progress needs to be made soon. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:00, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset and Dudley Miles: It stands as a testament to the importance of pinging/echoing/simply leaving a talk page notices. As I was not notified of outstanding comments here, I simply forgot this nomination was happening. Anyway, I'll try to remember to check the source soon, I have few more days where I can access it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:02, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Another notable aspect of the book is an accent on the desperate plight of the serfs". I do not understand what "accent" means here - exposé? concentration?
  • Clarified. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
• One query not dealt with (see above) and one new one.
• This article relies excessively on one source, particularly as you say in the article that there is an extensive literature on him. It seems surprising that there is only one biography of such an important figure in Polish history. However, I think it will meet the GA criteria once the two minor grammar queries above are dealt with. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  • The article could certainly be expanded for FA, but I think it is comprehensive enough for GA. And frankly, I think the other works on him are a) older b) offline and hard to access, in obscure Polish journals and such. Tazbir's work is the most known and accessible work on him, I believe - and probably the best overall (it is AFAK the newest work on him, and the only book-size biography). Thank you for your review and suggestions! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
• I have passed it now. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2015 (UTC)