Talk:Pip Ivan (Chornohora)

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Name?

Hello. I don't why this mountain have that name. I'm from Ukraine and we don't have this word Pop, only Pip. If Eng wikipedia try to be authoritative may be it should hears native nationals and make some right conclusion. --ДмитрОст (talk) 07:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Right well that's because old sources used the Polish name Pop, but it's now Ukranian Pip. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:06, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pip Ivan (Chornohora) → Chorna Hora (Pip Ivan) – Rectification of mountain name to official one according to State Register of Geographical Names of Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivska oblast, registry number "Ф-3993" Ynosa (talk) 16:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination and per form indicated in the article's lead sentence and in Ukrainian Wikipedia's corresponding entry. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose @Roman Spinner: the nom just made those changes in Ukrainian Wikipedia, they are still in yellow, not blue. Піп Іван Чорногірський seems to be the correct term in Ukrainian sources, so the title should stay Mountain Name (Range Name) as at present. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. In view of this entry's main title header being moved in Ukrainian Wikipedia, I would only support a move to the transliterated form of the newly indicated Ukrainian name, Pip Ivan Chonohirskiy, a form indeed supported by Ukrainian sources. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 23:01, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chonohirskiy is a disambiguating adjective, of the Chornohora range, not really part of the name in English. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I accidentally dropped the first "r" in the proposed redlink above — it should have been Pip Ivan Chornohirskiy. The other same-named peak, Pip Ivan (Maramureș), straddles the Ukrainian-Romanian border, with English Wikipedia entry's main header using the Romanian name for the Maramureș region (the Ukrainian name for the region is transliterated as Marmaroshchyna). Thus, if instead of using the Romanian name, English Wikipedia used a transliteration of the Ukrainian name, the main header would have been Pip Ivan Marmaros'kiy.

Taking the argument further, if the name of the peak under discussion were to be moved to Pip Ivan Chornohirskiy, then the name of the other peak should be moved to the analogous Pip Ivan Marmaros'kiy. Neither of the Pip Ivan peaks has an entry in the Romanian Wikipedia, but the Romanian Wikipedia's entry for Maramureș confirms that the Romanian name for the peak is "Pop-Ivan", thus making English Wikipedia's main header, Pip Ivan (Maramureș), a mix of Ukrainian and Romanian.

The use of parenthetical qualifiers "(Chornohora)" and "(Maramureș)" is problematic because it suggests that the qualifiers should be hidden by way of being piped as [[Pip Ivan (Chornohora)|Pip Ivan] and [[Pip Ivan (Maramureș)|Pip Ivan], rather than remain in the open through use of the above-mentioned disambiguating adjectives "Chonohirskiy" and "Marmaros'kiy", thus bypassing the need for qualifiers. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:52, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The other article is a mix of [English mountain name and (English range name)] surely. Same as we have for other mountains in ranges straddling borders. No problem. But we can't use Ukrainian adjectives for the ranges as names in English. Can't see any reason to keep this RM open. Speedy Close In ictu oculi (talk) 07:25, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since English exonyms do not contain accents or diacritics, the mountainous region does not have an English exonym and thus the Romanian name for the region becomes the English name. Most frequently in such cases, the diacritics are dropped and the name would be rendered in English-language texts as Maramures.

Kraków, Łódź, Wrocław, Poznań and Gdańsk, Poland's largest cities after Warsaw, usully appear in English texts as Krakow, Lodz, Wroclaw, Poznan and Gdansk.

Most likely, the reason for English use of the Romanian "Maramures" rather than the Ukrainian transliteration "Marmaroshchyna", is the obvious fact that the Romanian language, unlike the Ukrainian, uses the Latin alphabet, thus obviating the need for transliteration (and, while at it, in this case, uses fewer letters). On the other hand, the peak which is the subject of this nomination, is contained entirely within Ukraine and, as a result, there is no option other than transliteration. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 16:14, 10 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can't see how that relates to this article. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While most of the comment's content does, indeed, relate to the other Pip Ivan article, Pip Ivan (Maramureș), it was written in response to the previous posting's words, "The other article is a mix of [English mountain name and (English range name)] surely." Since the two Pip Ivan articles should use analogous forms in formulating their main title headers — either with qualifiers "(Chornohora)" and "(Maramureș)" or with disambiguating adjectives "Chornohirskiy" and "Marmaros'kiy" — I posted notice of this discussion at Talk:Pip Ivan (Maramureș) and Talk:Pip Ivan. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:01, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see. but "Chornohirskiy" and "Marmaros'kiy" are Ukrainian geographical adjectives, not the names of the ranges, so we can't use them in English. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taking that into account, a possible "split-the-difference" resolution may be to eliminate the Pip Ivan disambiguation page, move Pip Ivan (Chornohora) to Pip Ivan and move Pip Ivan (Maramureș) to Pop Ivanu (we even have a Romanian photo in Commons bearing that name) and put a hatnote atop each entry, pointing to the other entry. Since the current proposal is likely to fail [per earlier speedy close proposal], Pip Ivan alongside Pop Ivanu (or even Pop Ivan) may constitute a successor proposal. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 13:35, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.