Talk:Pirin Macedonia

Do we really need it?

This article is currently little more than a fork of Blagoevgrad Province's intro. All the historical and different point of views information can be put there. Would you like me to organize a poll or something regarding whether we really need an article under this title? I'd like to hear different opinions before merging what we have here into the existing article and redirect. Todor →Bozhinov 14:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with a merge. - FrancisTyers · 20:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any problem with this merge too.

Removed pending citation

"It has support and from many world recognised historians."
"The Bulgarians consider Macedonia as a historical part of Bulgaria, however the people in Macedonia never felt other than Macedonian, in order of support for the Bulgarian claims lots of indoctrinative theories exist, see Macedonism."
"It's interesting to be mentioned that in that period after WWII and 1956 the prime minister of Bulgaria Georgi Dimitrov was from Macedonian descent."

- FrancisTyers · 20:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first two are largely beyond proof by neutral sources, since they're clearly biased. The third one is possible, I'm not aware of Dimitrov's heritage, but he was born in Pernik Province (not in the region of Macedonia). It's certainly irrelevant, though — there are hundreds of thousands if not more than a million people in Bulgaria who descend from refugees from Macedonia, many of them popular or influential figures in all spheres of life... if you want politicians, choose between Dimitrov, Andrey Lyapchev, Dimitar Blagoev, Georgi Pirinski and so on. These could make a nice list, but are irrelevant, especially here.

Pirin Macedonia is different term then Blagoevrgrad Province

Pirin Macedonia is term which point to the one of the parts of ethnic Macedonia. It is different term then Blagoevgrad Province in Republic of Bulgaria. By the current teritorial subdivisions, Blagoevgrad Province spread almost to the same teritory as Pirin Macedonia. --Brest 08:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pirin Macedonia is term which refer to the ethnic teritory of Macedonia. Blagoevgrad province is term which refer to the current teritorial subdivision of the Republic of Bulgaria. Because it cover almost the same teritory there is confusion for some one who don't dig dipper in the problem. For me, the existence of the Blagoevgrad Province is not in the question. It is reality according to the current teritorial subdivision of the Republic of Bulgaria. But also existence of the Pirin Macedonia is not in the question. It is area mostly populated by ethnic Macedonians, governed by Republic of Bulgaria.--Brest 17:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Macedonians? Why don't you go ask them first? I'm tired of you guys believing in your government's fringe theories intended to provoke irredentism against Bulgaria and Greece. When will you get things right... hope someone won't let you in the EU (not that's too bad a thing) until you realize irredentism, chauvinism and revisionism are inconceivable in today's world. There exists no ethnic Macedonia, will you understand this? Your historians are just imaginative fiction writers. Todor →Bozhinov 17:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not tired of you guys. Why you are so sensitive about Macedonia? I will tell you, because you try to falsificate existence of Macedonians and because Bulgaria iliegaly poses Macedonian teritory. You can call for help your friends from Greece. If you think that you can hide the facts you are bad. Exactly today it is imposible. The time is comming, when your lies will be shown to the world.--Brest 20:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Geez, I know I'm bad, but I'm not the one hiding facts and falsifying history. What do you mean by "illegally possess Macedonian territory" (assuming that's what you wanted to say), perhaps you claim that Blagoevgrad Province is not populated by ethnic Bulgarians and probably its concession by the Ottoman Empire to Bulgaria has not been regulated by a treaty? I seem to remember it was... wait, wasn't that the Bucharest Treaty of 1913... right. So nothing illegal here, and no Macedonia involved (Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire, end of the question).

I'm sensitive about Macedonia because I don't like lies, that's all. Lies are bad, as you may (or may not) know. Otherwise, I appreciate my relatives in the (FY)RoM. You know, it's a bit funny you're a native speaker of what you call Macedonian and at the same time you claim you can hardly understand Bulgarian... have you tried? It can't have been as fruitless as you claim. I mean, Bulgarian is just a dialect of Macedonian! Oops, nope, but it can't be the other way round, can it. No, not really. Todor →Bozhinov 20:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look friend, you can put other subjects in this question with intentions to move from the focus. But we talk about use of two different term. First one is Pirin Macedonia and second one is Blagoevgrad Province. We can have discusion about other subjects you put here in proper places different then this one. Pirin Macedonia is the term which exist same as the term Blagoevgrad Province exist. You and your friends try to avoid and much more remove the term Pirin Macedonia. Why? You have political and historical reasons for that. May be I have also some reasons to avoid to use the term Blagoevgrad Province, but that term will continue to exist and should exist. Same as the term Pirin Macedonia, it will continue to exist and should exist.--Brest 20:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, you say that Blagoevgrad Province is Macedonian territory illegally possessed by Bulgaria, and then you say it will continue to exist and should exist as a term (as well as in reality: a meaningless term has no reason exist). You don't seem to have a clear position: are you an irredentist or are you not?

Anyway, let's leave that, perhaps you're just confused. In practice, Pirin Macedonia = Blagoevgrad Province: in terms of geography and borders, in terms of history, in terms of population, etc., and everything that needs to be said about the region can, without any trouble whatsoever, be included in a single article. The thing is, Blagoevgrad Province is also known as Pirin Macedonia: one thing, two names. The Blagoevgrad Province article is not long, we don't need to split it. The name has been chosen because it's official and better known, and because it's not controversial.

What you actually want is a page to freely spread old-school Macedonist propaganda, as illustrated by what you've actually written in this "article", and I regret to tell you that's not going to happen. Sorry. Case closed. Todor →Bozhinov 21:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I say that Pirin Macedonia is a term which denotes the territory where the Macedonians live in majority, and it is well known term worldwide. Also I say that Blagoevgrad Province just denote area in current administrative territory subdivision of the Republic of Bulgaria. Pirin Macedonia and Blagoevgrad province in the sense of geography is not exactly the same territory, but very close. Bulgarian nationalist (are you belonging to them?) has good tactics in the case of Macedonia, saying that everything which belongs to Macedonians is simple Bulgarian???. Same as their friends from Greece. And what you actually want is negation of Macedonian nation and Macedonians. And you do that with your Bulgarian negative propaganda against Macedonia and Macedonians. But you make few wrong steps.--Brest 05:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You must be either joking or extremely naïve. Todor →Bozhinov 10:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Just for the record, we do have separate articles for Aegean Macedonia and for Vardar Macedonia, which are not identical with Macedonia (Greece) and Republic of Macedonia respectively. So, I guess there would be nothing wrong in principle with having one for Pirin Macedonia too. But: the crucial thing is, what is that article going to do? Aegean Macedonia is a reasonable example: It is not an article about the territory as such (its geographical properties, inhabitants, history etc.), because if it was that it would be a POV fork. Instead, it is an article about the term "Aegean Macedonia" (its usage, traditions, ideological meanings etc.) If you can do something like that for Pirin M., why not? -- But that said, I'm skeptical if we really need yet another article on Macedonia... Perhaps you should consider redirecting this page to Macedonia (terminology)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to a Pirin Macedonia article (note that the Aegean Macedonia article is about the term, not a region), however Brest's version is a copy of Blagoevgrad Province with nonsense found in FYROM nationalistic websites like "Bulgaria continue this policy today by denying the existence of the large ethnic Macedonian minorities within their respective territories and refusing to grant them their basic human rights". Whoever wrote that obviously doesn't have a clue what "basic human rights" really are.--Ploutarchos 20:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hahaha

Intro

Pirin Macedonia (Macedonian: Пиринска Македонија),^{[irrelevant language spoken by 3000 people out of 350,000 Bulgarian inhabitants]} is one of the parts of Macedonia. Macedonia was a single geographic entity^{[citation needed]} until the Balkan Wars of 1912-13.^{[citation needed]} As a result of the Treaty of Bucharest, Macedonia was partitioned among Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria.

Upon annexation of Macedonia's territory, Bulgaria began terrorist campaigns^{[citation needed]}^!!!! aimed at expelling^{[citation needed]}^{where? where are those "expelled"} or forcibly assimilating^{[citation needed]}^{as opposed to forcibly nationalizing of the others?} the indigenous ethnic Macedonian population. Bulgaria continue this policy today^{[citation needed]} ^{within EU!!} by denying the existence^{[citation needed]}^{I have an opposite official source} of the large^LOL ethnic Macedonian minorities within their respective territories and refusing to grant them their basic human rights.^{[citation needed]}

I added a few notes above that indicate the theme of the "article".Niko Silver 20:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:POINT

Mustafa Akalp's out of the blue reversion having seen my comment in Fut.Perf's talk. Does he have the absolute clue? I seriously doubt it.Niko Silver 20:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pirin Mk

I agree with Fut.Perf. that this article should exist on the same philosophy of Aegean Macedonia, United Macedonia, or Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo etc. But that's not it, definitely.Niko Silver 20:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this version is the very paradigm of a POV fork, actually. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing against its existence, it's just that someone has to write an article, and I don't see why it can't be covered within the Blagoevgrad Province article. I seriously doubt we need articles on Vardar Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia and the like (e.g. Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo), as it seems, all they do is attract vandals and irredentists, and as terms they can easily be covered within the articles on the entities they are synonymous with. Of course, I'd like to hear what you think before doing anything. Todor →Bozhinov 21:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now that you mention it, merging the others (partly into their respective real-world-geography twins, and partly into "...(terminology)") might be not such a bad idea. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I won't object if you decide to formulate such a solution (I'll even try to help). However, Aegean Macedonia, for instance, has a sufficient separate context. It seems that merging them would create more problems. On the one hand, Mk (term) cannot absorb any more details on these (IMO -- and despite that it doesn't "serve" my nationalistic interests). On the other hand, the articles themselves (in this case Macedonia (Greece)) will not be benefited by fringe --or not so fringe-- nationalistic theories. It would be undue for Macedonia's proper content. I'm all ears though... Niko Silver 21:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Albanian one is OK too, there's no other article in which that information can be placed. Unlike in Greece and Bulgaria, FYROM's irredentist regions do not correspond exactly to official local administrative units in Albania.--Ploutarchos 21:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

I have protected this article to stop the edit-war. If editors of this article can come to a consensus about what to do with this page here, then we can lift the protection before it expires in two weeks. If you can't come to a consensus, I can just re-protect it for another two weeks. I prefer consensus.--Chaser - T 17:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

to the bulgarians

Pirin Macedonia is unique article in wikipedia. You cannot redirect it to the article of Blagoevgrad province. And one question for you, Why in bg.wikipedia.org exist the article named Pirin Macedonia (or in Bulgarian Пиринска Македония)? One reason why is because your friends in Bulgaria know that Blagoevgrad Province is not the same as Pirin Macedonia. And what you do here? You try to spread the Bulgarian nationalistic POV, because you know that a lot of people from all over the world read English edition of wikipedia and you hope that they will believe you. --Brest 11:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do not insert blatant nationalistic POV in the article. This is your last warning. Mr. Neutron 13:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And then what you will do it? Mr. Pozitron, die for it?--Brest 16:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have rather irredentist reasons behind your article while the on in bgwikipedia si about a historical Bulgarian region --Laveol ^T 13:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historical bulgarian region? Where you constantly suppress human rights of those who claim that are Macedonians. Sorry, Pirin Macedonia is part of Macedonia, simple, because of that it is called Pirin Macedonia not Pirin Bulgaria, and because of that you avoid to use the term Pirin Macedonia and rather use today administrative name of region - Blagoevgrad Province. But as much as you force to forget the term Pirin Macedonia, in fact you very well understood that it is reality and other visitors here will realise that you try to cheat them.--Brest 16:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, this is a violation of Wikipedia:POV fork and will not be tolerated. If you have some constructive suggestions, make them at Blagoevgrad oblast. Mr. Neutron 17:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

February 2019 Merge proposal

There are two articles about the geographical region of Pirin Macedonia:

Pirin Macedonia,

Pirin Macedonia (region)

The first one, served as a redirect to Blagoevgrad Oblast, an article about the administrative region, to which the info about the geographical region was included. However, recently, Pirin Macedonia was created as a separate geographic article.

Per WP:MERGEREASON, Pirin Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia (region) which are duplicates of each other, should be merged into Pirin Macedonia. There is no point at keeping 2 pages with the exact same subject and the exact same scope. -- ✿ SilentResident ✿ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the changes, there is no need of the word region, there is no in the case of Vardar Macedonia for example. And redirection for Pirin Macedonia should go to the Pirin Macedonia, Blagoevgrad Province is the same as the region of Pirin Macedonia, but it is a province, not a region. Sashko1999 (talk) 14:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]