Talk:Porcelain tile

On 7 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ceramic tile. The result of the discussion was not moved.

"Porcelain" vs "Ceramic"

Much of this article is just not true. Full-bodied porcelain tile may be glazed. There is no known ANSI standard that defines porcelain tile. ANSI rates tile for water absorption and does not make any distinction between materials. The Porcelain Enamel Institute (PEI) also rates tiles for wear-resistance. It too makes no distinction between materials. The only distinction between porcelain and ceramic tile that I am aware of is that porcelain is usually made from a light colored clay while ceramic is made from red or terracotta clay. This's it. Jmedgar 00:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jmedgar. I agree with you, except that your description of ceramic. I have edited the article, but more is needed. ThanxTheriac 23:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll also that porcelain tile is made with a higher feldspar content to clay (around 50/50) as opposed to ceramic which is around 70-75 clay to 30-25 feldspar. Archtile 03:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Porcelain" vs "Porcelain Tile"

I believe that Porcelain tile is separate and distinct enough from porcelain to have its own entry. Porcelain tile is essentially a construction material while fina china... isn't. -user:greroja

--- I agree don't merge this with "porcelain", tile is a historic art medium and material , as well as above noted construction/interior design use. porcelain will be overloaded with finished plates and cups and wares, and things like that, this is a decorative art material. Goldenrowley 01:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Subset or no

This articles claims to be both for "Porcelain tiles" and "ceramic tiles" but at various points in the articles say things like:

Porcelain is denser and therefore heavier to handle than other ceramic tiles.
Porcelain, being denser and heavier than ordinary ceramic tiles,
Porcelain is much harder than ordinary ceramic tiles
The clay used to build porcelain tiles is generally denser than ceramic tiles.

Making it seem that porcelain tiles are a subset of ceramic tiles.

In general "porcelain" is considered to a be a specific type of ceramic (based on clay type and the temperature at which the clay is fired). See for example: https://farandaway.co/blogs/the-artisan/what-is-the-difference-between-ceramic-and-porcelain

This translates to an extent with tiles (though the term "Ceramic" tile often used to refer to a specific type of tile). See for example:

https://www.britishceramictile.com/how-to-tile/ceramic-vs-porcelain-tiles

https://www.carpetone.com/flooring-guide/product-tile/tile-types

cancan101 (talk) 20:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vitrification

That section needs citation. Some light googling seems to suggest porcelain tiles are already vitrified though? I am unsure at this point but here is the article i am refereeing to. Maybe it can also be used for citation. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/porcelain-tiles-vs-vitrified-birju-ransariya

"Porcelain tiles however fall under the category of vitrified tiles and therefore, they are also sometimes referred to as vitrified tiles." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itchyjunk (talk • contribs) 14:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 12:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Porcelain tile → Ceramic tile – Ceramic is the better parent name for tiles that encompass porcelain as well cancan101 (talk) 21:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Seawolf35 ^T--C 04:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 09:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose to that! The VAST majority of ceramic tiles are NOT porcelain and never have been. Porcelain is a specific ceramic material, not a vague marketing term. I see that the section at Tile has what is missing here: "This is a US term, and defined in ASTM standard C242 as a ceramic mosaic tile or paver that is generally made by dust-pressing and of a composition yielding a tile that is dense, fine-grained, and smooth, with sharply-formed face, usually impervious. The colours of such tiles are generally clear and bright.^[1]" - Such tiles don't seem to be actual porcelain at all, though many others are. That isn't I think here, and it should be, and the article rewritten. As you say, the present text is all mixed up. I don't even think ceramic tile should redirect here - tile is better. This article should briefly cover the unique US sense of the term, and the use of actual porcelain for tiles, historical and modern. We put the latest talk page sections at the bottom. I will move your sections down. Johnbod (talk) 23:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are generally in agreement that the current redirection scheme (ceramic -> porcelain) does not make sense. I think you are arguing to reduce the content on this page and make it specific to just "porcelain tiles" (right now the page attempts to cover ceramic tiles as well). And then move ceramic to "tile" or a new page "ceramic tile".

However:

>"The VAST majority of ceramic tiles are NOT porcelain and never have been"

Is exactly why I suggested the change here though (flipping redirect porcelain -> ceramic). Porcelain is a subset of ceramic. i.e. technically all porcelain tiles are ceramic, but not all ceramic are porcelain. Given that, I do think swapping the redirect is more correct than what we have here. Ie we could have single page, "ceramic tiles" that has a section talking about what makes "porcelain tiles" special. cancan101 (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thinking about what you said and my initial response a bit more, my proposed solution would be:
1. Creation of a new "Ceramic tile" page.
2. Move some of the content from the current porcelain tile page to that new page
3. Link to the new "ceramic tile" page from Tile (from the Tile#Ceramic)
That being said, is there enough content on the remaining porcelain tile to justify its own page? I guess TBD. cancan101 (talk) 00:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't support a new ceramic tile; that should redirect to Tile, where there is already adequate coverage of various types of ceramic tile, which can be expanded there. That should leave a relatively short page here covering a) tiles actually made of porcelain, both historical and modern, and b) a bit on the US definition, if that is still current. Some moving of content to Tile might be needed, but we don't want to get too far into technical stuff on how to lay tiles. Johnbod (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that "Porcelain tile" as US-only definition is correct any longer. See this article: https://tcnatile.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/A-World-of-Difference.pdf which refers to the ISO (international organization's defintions):

> the following definitions were added to ISO 13006:

> - Porcelain tile: fully vitrified tile with water absorption less than or equal to 0.5%, belonging to groups AIa and BIa (of ISO 13006).

>...

>ISO 13006 divides ceramic tiles into groups according to their method of manufacture (extruded or pressed) and their water absorption.

and for reference as to the American definition (ANSI), from https://blog.ansi.org/porcelain-ceramic-tile-ansi-a137-1-astm-definition/:

>Porcelain tile is, according to ANSI A137.1:2022 – American National Standards Specifications for Ceramic Tile, a ceramic tile that has “a water absorption of 0.5% or less.” It is made generally by the pressed or extruded method.

From a taxonomy standpoint (both in the US and internationally), there are multiple types of ceramic tiles with "porcelain" being just one type.

All that being said, I think there is a fair bit of relevant encyclopedic information (ignoring installation process) that are specific to the parent concept of "ceramic tiles" that will likely be too verbose for the Tile#ceramic section. cancan101 (talk) 03:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If "porcelain tile" has become a wider modern definition then we should cover that, while making clear that these are not (necessarily) actual porcelain. Almost all the history section that is the longest part of Tile is about earthenware ceramic tiles, despite the lead mentioning other types of material. The same for the sections on roof tiles, and some of the section on floor tiles. Johnbod (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is another page, Vitrified tile that is worth considering in the context of this re-work. The (more) complete taxonomy (at least explained by pages on Wikipedia) is a bit inconsistent. Namely, are porcelain tiles a subset of vitrified (see Talk:Porcelain tile#Vitrification)? Are vitrified a subset of Porcelain (see Porcelain tile#Vitrification)? Or are they just partially overlapping? cancan101 (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, indeed. None of the refs seem especially authoritative. That page might well be merged. On google there is a lot of talk about "vitrified porcelain tiles", but this US site has a page comparing the two "types". I'm not sure how far WP should get into this industry vocabulary. Johnbod (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving the 'Ceramic tile' redirect: as the article does seem to mainly talk about porcelain tiles, and porcelain is just a kind of ceramic, so why is 'Ceramic tile' used as a secondary title? Tiles are also made from materials that are not ceramic e.g. glass, carpet, and the article at Tile acknowledges this. So, this article should have references to non-porcelain ceramics removed. I've never heard the term 'porcelain tile' anyway, which doesn't mean it can't have an article of course, but in the UK they are just referred to as 'tiles' or 'ceramic tiles' when talking about tiles for kitchens and bathrooms, as opposed to 'carpet tiles' (usually for office floors) or 'clay tiles' for roofing. YorkshireExpat (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you get into the trade literature, UK as well as US, "porcelain tile" does seem to be a thing, but they are by no means always, probably usually not, made of actual porcelain. In this sense they seem mainly tough ceramic tiles for floors, while actual porcelain tiles are probably mainly for walls, at least in the UK. The lead now says (after recent changes): "Porcelain tiles or ceramic tiles are either tiles made of porcelain, or relatively tough ceramic tiles made with a variety of materials and methods, that are suitable for use as floor tiles, or for walls" - I agree the "or ceramic tiles" should go, & redirect to Tile. Johnbod (talk) 18:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see why porcelain tiles have enough information to merit their own page, but not the same about ceramic tiles. I would argue as I've done before that if either has a dedicated page it would be ceramic tiles and then porcelain could just be a subsection within that page as by various definitions they are some form of a subset of ceramic tiles (whether by traditional definitions or by the level of water absorption). cancan101 (talk) 02:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any reason to split out ceramic tiles (the most common material) from the main article, Tile. Many different subsets of "ceramic tile" have their own articles - there look to be about 20 in Category:Tiling. Johnbod (talk) 04:51, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The nomination doesn't convince me of anything really... WP:NWFCTM. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Dictionary of Ceramics. A.Dodd. Institute of Materials/Pergamon Press. 1994.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Glazed

The hatnote says ""Glazed tile" and "glazed tiles" redirect here. For roofing material used in China, see Chinese glazed roof tile." I see no reason for this, as both "porcelain" (true or pretend) Vitrified and earthenware tiles may or may not be glazed. These terms should redirect to Tile, where there is plenty of coverage. Johnbod (talk) 00:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Dictionary of Ceramics. A.Dodd. Institute of Materials/Pergamon Press. 1994.

[1]