Talk:Poverty in Austrian Galicia

One-sided account

I assume this article is in its earl stages and has yet to be refined. I don't have time to make many changes here, but it ought to be noted that there were significant improvements by the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries (for example, full literacy of school-age children in Galicia was achieved by the eve of World War I). This article, though factual, reads a bit like an article about the backwardness of the Russian Empire and just writing about it before Stolypin's reforms and other changes. It presents a one-sided picture. Some facts here: [http://books.google.com/books?id=jNaFc1OdN-QC&pg=PA44&dq=poverty+galicia+austria+dalmatia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3dFiUf7CEqSU0QGN64HIBA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=poverty%20galicia%20austria%20dalmatia&f=false} In terms of wages, if Lower Austria was indexed at 100, wages in Lviv grew from 47.4 in 1895 to 62.4 in 1913. also, Dalmatia was apparently even poorer than east Galicia. Faustian (talk) 14:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Another chart: [1]. Galicia +Bukovyna had per capita income greater than than of Eastern Hungary, Transylvania, and Croatia-Slavonia. In 1900 it was wealthier per capita than Dalmatia within Austria, but fell behind Dalmatia and was the poorest of the Austrian provinces in 1910. Still, Galicia continues to be somewhat wealthier per capita than several of the Hungarian regions was only slightly below the average for the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary. Some context needs to be in this article - the Polish landowners did not seem to be able to exploit the Polish and Ukrainian peasants quite as much under Vienna as the Hungarians did their own subjects.... Faustian (talk) 14:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I also have a bit of a problem with the claim that "where the per capita income was one tenth of the Austrian average", especially since Austria was one of the poorest countries in Europe in the 19th century - that would make Galicia REALLY poor. Which it was but not that poor. 1/10th is very very little. This also contradicts the wages given for Lviv, as noticed by Faustian above - that suggests which where about 1/2 of rest of Austria (maybe a bit less, given that cities usually had somewhat higher wages). I know the info's in the source though - what is the Mahler (1990) article that it is based on? Volunteer Marek 17:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm also wondering if the 1/10 thing doesn't have to do with real vs. nominal wages. Nominal wages were much lower but local prices were also lower (particularly for grain, as this was where it was all produced), so the difference in terms of real wages wasn't as pronounced.

It might also be worth noting that this poverty was very much a 19th (maybe 18th) century phenomenon. At the beginning of the 17th century, even nominal wages in Krakow and Lviv were higher than in Vienna (and prices were lower too).Volunteer Marek 17:43, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

On this last point - I quickly made this excel chart showing silver and real wages in Lviv, Krakow and Vienna, based on some data I had on hand.

As you can see after about the middle of the 16th century, silver wages where higher in Lviv and Krakow than Vienna. When you adjust for prices - which were particularly low in PLC (basically in Europe at this time, prices were lower the further you were away from Spain and the closer you were to the grain producing regions... which was of course Galicia) the difference is even bigger. There was a pretty big drop in wages in Lviv around the middle of the 17th century. Some of it is actually a monetary conversion issue I think - the silver content of coins changed and it took time for this to be fully reflected in prices and wages. So the drop wasn't as sudden as the data makes it appear, but given that between 1649 and 1704 the city was besieged something like twenty times (at least 6!) it's not exactly surprising. Krakow reflects the general decline in living standard in 18th century Poland (due to devastating wars but also new competition in the grain markets from abroad). Interestingly Vienna also shows a decline during the same period. Both of these are actually part of Europe-wide phenomenon where standards of living fell from their peak in roughly early/middle (timing depended on place) 17th century up to the industrial revolution (England and Netherlands being a bit of an exception).

Unfortunately, this data does not go further than 1700 for Lviv and 1789 for Krakow, so it doesn't cover the period when "Galician poverty" became proverbial, which is the subject of this article.Volunteer Marek 18:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

One other comment - the "unskilled workers" in the above are "non-qualified workers" for Lviv and Krakow and "grape pickers" for Vienna (hey, that's the data we got). So if "grape pickers" were particularly low paid, even compared to the general category of unskilled workers, then the difference between the cities is overstated.Volunteer Marek 18:26, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Btw, Faustian that's a really nice source. Thanks.Volunteer Marek 18:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow - fascinating work, VM.Faustian (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

More: This article compares various European countries in 1870, 1890, and 1913 in 1990 dollars: [2]. Using the dollar by year conversion calculator [3] is appears that several European countries were poorer than Galicia - that it was not the poorest place in Europe. Here we see, in 1970 dollars, Galician+Bukovinan income of 427 in 1970 dollars. At that time, Serbian income in 1970 dollars was only 283.92, Russian was 317.94, Bulgarian 366.10, Portugal 392.10, etc. Sweden's was only a bit higher than Galicia's - 505 (interesting that Spain was wealthier than Sweden in 1890). I have no idea how to put this stuff into the article without committing original research but, again, the portrayal of Galicia as the poorest part of Europe seems to be rather false. It only appears to have been very poor compared to northwestern Europe. Its per capita income less than half of that of the northwest European average but was higher than that of all the Balkan countries as well as Greece, Portugal and Russia. Faustian (talk) 19:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the interest; of course this is just a start class article and can use improvement. I cited reliable sources, but of course reliablity =/= truth. Feel free to expand this article by adding alternate accounts. I actually intended to write just the article about famines in Austrian Galicia, but the relevant sources discussed poverty in much detail, so here it is. As a start article, this is hardly a comprehensive lit rev, but this is what I was able to find. Again, please expand and correct it. Also, a useful source is Andrzej Jezierski (2003). Historia Gospodarcza Polski. Key Text Wydawnictwo. pp. 143–146. ISBN 978-83-87251-71-0. Retrieved 9 April 2013. (the only Polish language modern history text that is worth anything and is also available online for the most part). It does have some useful information, and may allow us to create an article on the Economy of Austrian Galicia, through it doesn't have that many stats, cites no sources. and suffers from most problems that, well, almost all other sources do anyway. Sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I came across as critical - of course it's a start article, and will improve. I was just observing how it looks at the moment.Faustian (talk) 03:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

My additions

I added comparative data involving per capita economic product in other regions of Austria-Hungary and in other European countries. I hope that using the currency conversion tool to convert 1970 dollars and 1990 dollars (used in the original sources) to 2010 dollars is not considered original research. The purpose of the conversions was to make the comparisons using two sources (one written in 1970 dollars and another in 1990 dollars)symmetrical. Faustian (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

It's fine, although I'll just note that per capita income is a relatively poor statistic, as it does not account for inequality. So if compared to other listed places (ex. Portugal) the vast majority of wealth in Galicia was concentrated among the nobility and/or the towns, the Galician countryside might still have been the poorest. Unfortunately, I doubt we can easily get data on per capita per social class. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:01, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I had the same thoughts :-) Faustian (talk) 04:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Zwi Migdal

Zwi Migdal transferred girls from Galicia, too.Xx234 (talk) 08:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Insightful, Balanced, Fair and Non-nationalist Exmination and Approach is always helpful

Thank you to Faustian and Vlunteer Marek's valueble and insightful contribution to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 19:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Alison Fleig Frank asked the ultimate question, and I quote: "was Galician poverty really beneficial to Viennese policy makers? Why would Vienna, eager to promote industrialization and catch up to its economically more vibrant western neighbors, be content to let the Galician economy rot? Recent research has shown the extent to which Austria-Hungary’s economy was much more vital than historians had previously allowed, but this vitality did not somehow extend to Galicia. That this failure to thrive was caused by a poorly defined colonial policy (as Galicia was definitely not the only poor region in AH, Dalmatia, Croatia-Slavonia, Transylvania, Tirol were poor as well) however has not yet been proven, and the real source of Galician poverty puzzled contemporaries…" Clear this needs a more insightful, balanced, fair and non-nationalist examination and approach. 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you suggest to change? Mellk (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry my comment didn't mean to offend you in anyway. I have two suggestion of change. One was one actually reading books like Alison Fleig Frank and few others in more depth and for more details (Richard Sylla, Gianni Toniolo's Patterns of European Industrialisation: The Nineteenth Century, Larry Wolff, Keely Stauter-Halsted etc), and Faustian and Vlunteer Marek already set a good example with their contribution. Two, creation of new and improved article titled economy of Galicia or industrial development of Galicia with sources (i.g. Alison Fleig Frank Richard Sylla, Gianni Toniolo), actual data and statistics, figures, data and Austro-Hungarian era report (primary source are crucial) 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, there were major improvement by the end of 19 century and early 20 century, etc industrivial development (the oil industry), wage increase etc. 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 20:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Alison Fleig Frank’s book above also mentioned lengthy and complex battle for land and mineral rights, where there were those (polish gentry and ironically some Ruthenian peasants) who were against the use of their land for industrial development and oil given to foreign hand, but there were also those who supported use of land for industrial development. There were also those who support that Imperial Mining Prerogative should retain ownership of minerals and oil resources, but those from the Polish Gentry who insisted and later secured mineral rights to petroleum products in the hands of private landowners. In the case of the oil industry, the empire followed the American pattern and demonstrated considerable respect for private property by allowing each individual landowner to decide how to exploit or refuse to exploit, mineral rights to his or her land. 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

An excerpt from Frank's book on Industrial Development of Galicia

Here’s an excerpt from Alison Fleig Frank’s book on industrial development of Galicia in late 19 century, after a decade of steady growth, on 4 July 1895, MacGarvey and Bergheim transformed their private firm into a joint-stock company that became one of the leading corporations in the Galician oil industry: the Galizische Karpathen-Petroleum Actien-Gesellschaft vormals Bergheim & MarGarvey… The company’s headquarters were in Vienna, its machine shops and foundry were in Glinik Maryampolski… The Carpathian Company was founded with a capital of 10 million crowns and ran with equipment and tools and on property that had been purchased for 8 million crowns. In its first year of existence, the new joint-stock company produced nearly 35 million km of crude oil, 17.5 million of which were refined in its own refinery in Glinik Maryampolski. By the early 20 century, the company employed 2400 workers, owned steam engines and water power in the strength of 2800 horsepower, and produced crude oil, refined petroleum, gasoline, lubricating oil, paraffin, steam drilling engines, drilling rigs, boilers, pumps, core drills, winding machines, portable electric cranes, and eccentric drilling bits that had been patented by McGarvery himself... So this proved that the authority did show somewhat interest in allowing industrial growth of Galicia, the statement of "showing absolutely no interest..." sounded rather simplistic tbh 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 20:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Miltary Service

Military service was long and not easy back then, but wasn't it a way of employment or job security for poor people and peasants around the world back then? At least being in the military meant the peasant-turned-soilder could earn a somewhat stable amount of income. 2604:3D09:D07D:6250:0:0:0:3871 (talk) 21:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)