Talk:Preston and Longridge Railway

Did the P&LR "fail"?

In the opening paragraph of this article, it states "an ambitious plan to link the Lancashire coast to the heart of Yorkshire. The plan failed, and the line closed to passengers in 1930 and to goods in 1967."

Sorry, but I don't consider a railway line that operated from 1839 to 1967 (128 years) a failure, not when you consider its closure was a result of the Beeching cuts, and especially not when you consider the line was bought by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway and later jointly owned by the London and North Western Railway i.e. if t was a failure, it would have closed much early than it did, and was lucrative enough to be purchased by another company. There is also the fact that it extended its original Preston terminus from Deepdale Street to Maudlank Bank.

I have therefore amended the opening paragraph to "...the heart of Yorkshire. The line closed to passengers in 1930 and to goods in 1967." Blammy1 (talk) 22:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

It was the "plan to link the Lancashire coast to the heart of Yorkshire" that failed, as it never got any further east than Longridge. Saying "the plan failed" doesn't imply that the railway was a failure. However, "the plan failed" and "the line closed..." are two unconnected facts so they should be in separate sentences. -- Dr Greg  talk  23:27, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

re: "the plan failed" and "the line closed..."
Whilst I agree that they are two unconnected facts, I still do not believe that their plan failed. I am in the understanding that although the company faced financial difficulties before their take-over by the LNWR, they did not enter administration nor did operations cease while under the original board of control. Yes, their plans never fully came to fruition but semantically, this does not constitute failure.
Blammy1 (talk) 03:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

BTW I am happy with how the paragraph reads after your recent edit i.e. "The ambition was never achieved, but the line continued to carry passengers until 1930 and goods until 1967."
Blammy1 (talk) 04:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

When did the L&PR actually commence operating? (unclear/disputed)

As currently described in this article, I believe that he actual date that this line began operating needs to be confirmed, as sources other than those cited for this article state that the line was "completed" in March 1839 and "inaugurated" on 1 May 1840, whereby the opening date stated in the article is this inauguration date.

As to the railway's original terminus at Deepdale Street, records refer to its opening date (which is the same as the inauguration date for the railway) rather than its construction date. Furthermore, I cannot locate any reputable sources stating what date actual operations commenced i.e. confirmation whether or not the line in use between its "completion" and its "inaugruation". Also, I have seen references to the fact that quarries (plural) existed around Longridge, including at Longridge Fell and at Tootle Heights Quarry, which I cannot ascertain to be one and the same, but I have historical records (in PDF but no longer have the reference details) that at least four (4) quarries were operating at Tootle Heights between 1830 and 1860, and that the "quarry masters" who owned them were messrs Fletcher , Flemings, Marsden and Spencer

I have established that the Tootle Heights Quarry was operating before 1839 and that the tramway from the quarry to Longridge - the first section of the line to be opened - was also open by the end of 1839 (interestingly, it should be noted that although railway operations commenced from Longridge no later than 1 May 1840, the station itself was not built until 1848) at that at Longridge the "stone was loaded onto wagons and transported to Preston and on to the docks" but I can no longer find this reference nor can I recollect whether the wagons to Preston where transported by road or rail. However, I have located a photo showing a tunnel on this section of the line and a construction date of 1839.

Furthermore, under the relevant Companies Act, Railways Act or Railway Companies Act (Individual) of the day, all details regarding the (proposed) operation of the railway must be defined, and if approved, brought into effect by an Act of Parliament (eg. the Preston and Longridge Railway Act) which defines the conditions associated with the company, and passes ownership of the land for the line from the Crown to the company. Based upon this, the following key information sources have been identified:

• a record for a prospectus Preston and Longridge Railway - with map " dated between 1 April and 31 August 1835 is held by the National Archives, Kew (reference:RAIL 1075/428)
• a record from the Parliament of William IV, 1836, Local and Personal Act 6 & 7 (chapter 122) notes an Act for making and maintaining a Railway from Preston to Longridge in the County Palatine of Lancaster is held by the Parliamentary Archives, Westminster (reference: HL/PO/PB/1/1836/6& 7W4n191
• a record for the Plan and section of an intended railway between Preston and Longridge, with the related Parliamentary Bill dated 1836 is held by Lancashire Archives, Preston (reference: PR3262/14/1)
• a record for a further prospectus and plan Preston and Longridge, plan, prospectus &c. dated 1836 is held by the National Archives, Kew (reference: RAIL 1065/148)
• a record of the Report of 1st Meeting of the Preston and Longridge Railway Co. dated 12 September 1836 is held by the Lancashire Archives, Preston (reference: DDCL 1183/18)
• a record of of anotice of meeting of the Preston & Longridge Railway Co. to raise money for completing railway dated 9 January 1840 held by Lancashire Archives, Preston (reference: DDCL 1187/2)
• a record from the House of Lords of the Parliament of Victoria I, 1841, Local and Personal Act 6 & 7 (chapter 2) notes an Act to enable the Preston and Longridge Railway Company to raise a further Sum of Money" (which I assume relates to the previous record) is held by the Parliamentary Archives, Westminster (reference: HL/PO/PB/1/1841/4& 5V1n7)
• a listing for the London and North Western Railway Company Records (Deeds, Agreements, Contracts, Specifications, Estimates Preston - Longridge branch dated 1843 - 1957 relating to the take-over of the P&LR by the LNWR is held by the National Archives, Kew (reference: RAIL 410/1145)

However, the articles are only accessible offline from the respective archives, and are not documented on Wikipedia. Therefore, all that I can confirm from the existence of these records is that:

• the company came into existence no earlier than 1836, and was a legal entity by 12 September 1836
• the original planned network was not completed before 1841
• the company was bought out by the LNWR on or after 1843

Please note that David Hindle's book All Stations to Longridge (2010, ISBN 9781445602004) may provide an answer without having to sight the artefacts that I have listed above.

To conclude, although I believe this issue needs to be resolved and if necessary, the article updated according (or amended to differentiate between key dates), I feel I have already added my tuppence worth and I am not doing anymore research into this, as I am already writing a number of Wikipedia articles which are taking up FAR too much of my time.

According to John Marshall, the Preston and Longridge Railway Company (P&L) was formed in 1835, and incorporated by an Act of 14 July 1836; the line was opened on 1 May 1840. The Fleetwood, Preston and West Riding Junction Railway (FP&WRJ) was formed in 1846 and incorporated by an Act of 27 July 1846. On 2 November 1846 the FP&WRJ agreed to lease the P&L, this was effective 1 January 1847. This lease was terminated on 15 November 1852, but on 23 June 1856 the FP&WRJ obtained a second Act, and it bought the P&L, payment being completed on 30 June 1860. The FP&WRJ was bought jointly by the LNWR and LYR on 1 July 1866, becoming the Preston & Longridge Joint Committee; this in turn was amalgamated into the LNWR & LYR Joint Committee on 1 January 1899. So, the P&L was not owned solely by the LNWR until the LNWR/LYR amalgamation of 1 January 1922. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Blammy1 (talk) 03:15, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Trampower

The planned tram line has been an extremely long ,still, unresolved venture. Personally, as are many others, we are keen to see this development actually materialise, but it has been a 13 year wait....so far. Come on and move forward!! Meleril (talk) 10:11, 10 April 2023 (UTC)