Talk:Qa'im Al Muhammad

untitled

This article should be merged with the article Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (as) Armyrifle 21:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC) No, it shouldn't, because the Shiite and Sunnite concepts are a bit different. There are some who believe that the two concepts refer to the same Person (e.g. Baha'is) but you would get puzzled looks from most Sunni Muslims. Ala Balsam Collestan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.124.165.189 (talk)

---

I CAN GIVE YOU THE PROOF IN QURAN "Sura 36 YaSin " THE FUTURE PROPHET IN ISLAM

I can give you the proof in Quran "Sura 36 YaSin " start from Ayat-15 when Allah sent two prophets Moses and Haroon than Issa talk about Jessus and his peoples, than Ayat-21 starts future prophet but he will bring same sharia which is Mohammad Rasool Allah SWA PBUH gave us and He will declare follow all prophecies after Ayat-30 and Ayat-50 fighting and blast same thing in Sura 44 Al-Dukhan Ayat-11, 12 and "Sura 36 YaSin " is totaly for present christians (Romans) so the last Imam will be for christians and also for Muslims but according to Sura YaSin only one religion kingdom on earth Islam please read Quran carefully there is all life in this great book from start to end of humanity and earth each sentence has long life hidden but its not open to every one some of you read present and some of you consider is a past...

There is no Jesus or Issa will come that hadith false and formatted by Jews & Christians because they were still waiting when Issa with them they didn’t accepted and they populated wrong concepts in Islam. Allah already clearly mention in Quran All past prophecies died. This fitna formatted by Jews & Christians for future when the time will come Muslims will clash each others

Follow the Hadith if Hadith matched with Quran then is okay other wise so many termites they changed the Hadithes since written by none Arabic peoples after 250 year and after them after they changed for own things and matter purposes and so many Jewish convert into Islam just for only change the track of Islam Allah already say's in Quran 4:46 and 2:75 and please leave the tombs for pray when you can leave the tomb for pray your heart will be convert into pure Islam because those who said they are wali Allah actually they are pure termites in that regions to change the Islam into new format…Leave the tombs for prayer that is the biggest shirk today facing humanity you called Wali Allah they diverted the peoples from real Islam into new religions they diverted from them into 73 sects and peoples they pray on that tombs that is the biggest shirk today’s, leave those tombs which is you called Wali Allah they were not Wali Allah just follow the Rasool Allah S.A.W. PBUH rules and Quran leave them all dead peoples you called Wali Allah then your hearts will be convert into pure Islam sweetness and get mercy from Allah.

Today’s dajjal fitna is combined of all previous Prophecies time fitnas and present Muslim peoples also adopted and emerged into those fitnas now they called this is part of life or secular life so who is first for Azab-e-Allah… kafir who were they already kafir or who were Muslims now they adopted kafir culture.

Dajjal is fitna and big lair presently its in your home can you stop watching movies I don’t think so, can you be able to stop cheating each others only for one day I don’t think so, can you share your facilities to other poor brothers for one day nop can you put hajjab on your eyes for one day nop, can you stop thinking make more money nop, did you give the food to poor person last 30 days nop, so you are materialistic and you are under siege by dajjal who created this atmosphere for you and who interrupt them they will destroyed physically and also mentally, your brains economically siege by yahood economists because you are fare from Islam.

Dajjal has one eye to look world one eye not spiritual eye like satellite cameras, GPS, Radars and media they are dajjal predator eye, dajjal heaven his own place like his countries and systems they are look like peaceful places he called them heaven but actually they are traps and take you in hell because these countries law against Islamic rules and who will effected by dajjal like dajjal killed them those Muslims get shahadeth (shaheed) that dajjal called hell but its not hell peoples get shahadet.

Zulkarnan Allah Salaam said (Allah mention in Quran) Dajjal will appear that time when Iron and Copper will fly on earth surface and Yajuj and Majuj (Gog and Magog) will fight each others, Now this is the time all flying machines dependant on copper and iron with out these elements not possible to fly on earth surface even cannot move.

Communism and Christianity (Yajuj and Majuj ) collapse each others when they strength down than Islam sun will rise in whole world not with these present Molvies educations, there will be new system will rise that system only for poor peoples and they will crush the both Communism and Christianize systems then poor peoples faith convert into Islam and churches will convert into Masjjid (Mosques). I don’t believe present Molvies, Ulma and Umma but soon you will also don’t believe them just believe on Quran and read if you don’t understand read again and read again Allah give you the right path Allah most merciful, Allah give everything who request from Allah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammad Akram R (talk • contribs) 03:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Revisions needed to Claimants to Qa'im Section related to Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi

The section on Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi in it's current state is poorly written and contains errors. "Husseini Syed" is not his proper name. What should be a paragraph is one single run on sentence with poor and inadequate sentence structure. As a depiction of the historical sequence of events the entire episode is jumbled together in an unclear way. It is inconsistent with other, well-written and researched summaries of the episode of the Bab and his claim's to Qa'im-hood as written elsewhere in wiki articles on this topic. Worst of all, it doesn't cite a single source

I've proposed a revision that brings a greater consistency in how this topic is addressed in other wiki articles on this topic and in line with existing scholarship on this topic, including no fewer than 5 citations from diverse and well-respected scholars on the topic. I'm happy to provide line and section citations if needed but the summaries I'm suggesting are easily verifiable for anyone familiar with these events. If there are concerns over NPOV we can build a common summary on the basis of my revision but the existing content should be dumped since it has no citations and has demonstrably poor written quality. Aliyeen (talk) 03:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

[1] The sources look good (MacEoin, Amanat are not friendly to Baha'is; de Bellague is not a Baha'i). Could be shorter. See also List of Mahdi claimants which basically is the same thing. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Aliyeen I'll go over the sources in the coming days. Thank you for your patience. Albertatiran (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The text proposed by Aliyeen, copied below for convenience:

'The Báb (1819-1850), Siyyid ʻAlí Muhammad Shírází, was a young merchant of Shiraz renowed for his spiritual piety and religious devotion, who at the age of 25 in 1844 announced his claim to be the Qa'im and the return of Twelfth Imam. The Báb claimed to be the "gate" and representative of the Hidden Imam and began gathering a group of disciplines. He then travelled on hajj to Mecca to proclaim himself as Mahdi and Qa'im in front of the masses, and from there instructed his devotees to gather them in Karbala to await his arrival and signal the onset of the final jihad, an event of great eschatological significance and rooted in a messianic expectation that the Qa'im would lead a holy war and bring justice to the earth before the end of history, however for reasons that are unclear, upon return to Persia, the Báb instead left for Shiraz and was placed under house arrest shortly after. The Báb grew great renown throughout Persia and in the eyes of many, commoners and Islamic scholars alike, and the movement quickly spread. He was placed in a series of imprisonments by the Persian government and religious authorities who grew increasingly worried at the extent of interest in the new cause. Eventually, he was executed by the Persian authorities in 1850 at the age of 30 (Execution of the Báb) in hopes that his death would quell the movement, however the Babi community continued after his martyrdom. Later, Baháʼu'lláh, one of the most prominent early followers of the Báb, claimed to be the Supreme Manifestation of God whose advent the Báb had promised. In time, the vast majority of Bábis followed him and became Bahais. Albertatiran (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the slow reply. Where does your source talk about his "martyrdom"? Please quote the source, if possible. Albertatiran (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Better wording would be "...Babi community viewed him as a martyr and continued." Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cuñado You wording would indeed solve one major problem with the proposed text: violation of WP:NPOV. But another issue still stands: WP:VERIFIABILITY. That is, does the source talk about his "martyrdom," perceived by his followers or otherwise? Or does it simply say he was killed? Albertatiran (talk) 18:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I contend that granting that someone is described as a martyr or that a community views an event as a martyrdom does not necessarily contradict neutral point of view. One can take a neutral or academic POV on such an issue and still fully describe an event as a martyrdom under minimal assumptions or endorsements. An example of this convention being followed elsewhere on Wikipedia entries includes the entry on Husayn ibn 'Ali:

"Battle ensued on 10 October during which Husayn was martyred along with most of his relatives and companions, while his surviving family members were taken prisoner. The battle was followed by the Second Fitna, during which the Iraqis organized two separate campaigns to avenge the martyrdom of Husayn; the first one by the Tawwabin and the other one by Mukhtar al-Thaqafi and his supporters."

As far as verifiability, the death of Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi is so widely attested (in fact it is the most widely attested event in his life and one of the key component of his notability).

But as far as the sources I've included in the edit I made, here are a sampling:

MacEoin, demonstrating wide appreciation of the event as martyrdom: "During the nineteenth century, something of a myth of the Bāb was perpetuated in some intellectual and literary circles in Europe ... best described by the French journalist Jules Bois, who wrote of the Bāb’s death: “All Europe was stirred to pity and indignation. . . . Among the litterateurs of my generation, in the Paris of 1890, the martyrdom of the Bāb was still as fresh a topic as had been the first news of his death. We wrote poems about him... (“Babism and Bahaʾism,” Forum 74, 1925, quoted in Momen, op. cit., p. 50)"

In Amanat, the section "Martyrdom" from p. 394 onward, variously described it as execution and martyrdom. In Afnan, described frequently as martyrdom (notably, written from a Babi-Baha'i perspective but containing contemporaneous perspectives and accounts). With all three of these in mind and the widespread notability of the Bab with respect to the events surrounding his execution/martrydom I think it is as justifiable as describing anyone on wikipedia as a martyr.

I'm happy to go with the suggestion of Cuñado to add a qualifier "viewed as a martyr by followers and others alike," or something similar to capture that but I'd also clarify this fact is very much not in dispute. Aliyeen (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Aliyeen: To describe anyone as a martyr, as a fact, obviously violates neutrality in a secular encyclopedia. That's the end of this discussion. I'll hopefully fix the instance you found in Husayn's article soon. Albertatiran (talk) 08:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're making a mistake by assuming that the mentioning of martyrdom has to mean an epistemic endorsement of the premises or justifications in the face of alternative parties that wouldn't see it that way. There is legitimate possibilities for the use of such terms, versus an agnostic pretention that it cannot exist in attempts to write towards neutrality.

For stylistic examples, consider this article on Justin Martyr on Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Justin-Martyr):

• Justin was denounced to the Roman prefect as subversive and condemned to death with six companions. Authentic records of his martyrdom, by beheading, survive.
• "Valerian tried new methods against the clergy and other leaders, martyring St. Cyprian and St. Sixtus II in 258"
• "through nearly three centuries the martyrs had been the seed of the church, and now the accession of a Christian emperor changed the whole situation."

Also about Husayn ibn 'Ali, your contention that it needs to be changed also does not bear out with respect to other reputable encylopedias (again, Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Husayn-ibn-Ali-Muslim-leader-and-martyr)

• the title of the article and even the link to it reference his status as 'martyr' ("al-Ḥusayn ibn ʿAlī Muslim leader and martyr"
• "In remembrance of the martyrdom of Ḥusayn, Shiʿi Muslims observe the first 10 days of Muḥarram (the date of the battle according to the Islamic calendar) as days of lamentation (see ʿĀshūrāʾ). Revenge for Ḥusayn’s death was turned into a rallying cry that helped undermine the Umayyad caliphate and gave impetus to the rise of a powerful Shiʿi movement."

"The details of Ḥusayn’s life are obscured by the legends that grew up surrounding his martyrdom, but his final acts appear to have been inspired by a definite ideology..." Aliyeen (talk) 00:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

@Aliyeen Another concern is the coverage. Again, to maintain neutrality, the article should present a balanced portrait of this historical figure. That's not the case in your proposed text which shows him in an entirely positive light. What do his critics say? They must be represented, even if briefly, in the text. Albertatiran (talk) 12:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, I think you're applying an unreasonable standard to a short summary paragraph that is primarily to due with his claims to be Qa'im and links to relevant full-length entries that afford more detail on conflicts, contentions, and backlash.

Further:

• the other entries in this list do not do go into any detail on any opposition to their claims or attempts to describe competing perspectives
• the prior entry which I replaced makes precisely zero contributions on oppositions to him or his claims, mine does (mentions clergy and Persian authorities and their eventual execution of him)
• none of the other entries cite any sources (except one), mine cites 4 comprehensive overviews of varying lengths by established scholars on the subject.

For a parallel example consider the Britannica summary on the Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi (https://www.britannica.com/summary/the-Bab). It makes only one brief mention of opposition by members of the religious class, which is perfectly sufficient for a short summary. My entry goes to about the same extent of mentioning this. I'm happy to accept suggestions or make minor changes that further clarify that he was opposed but as I mentioned there are other contexts where such matters are more appropriately addressed. For the context of this article, there's not a strong reason to prefer the current poorly summarized rendition over mine, hence I'm in favor of replacing it with mine and making further edits as necessary. Aliyeen (talk) 00:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Baha'is have a Holy Day called "Martyrdom of the Bab" that commemorates that event every year. For an academic source, Smith, Peter (2000). A concise encyclopedia of the Baháʼí Faith. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. ISBN 1-85168-184-1. page 234, entry martyrdom: "A martyr is one who suffers death in the cause of their religion... Martyrdom is a major religious motif in Shi'ism, particularly linked to the death of the Imam Husayn at Karbala... This paradigm was readily appropriated by the Babis as the tensions between them and the secular and religious authorities increased, the readiness of the Babis to face martyrdom giving them both courage and religious legitimacy." Cuñado ☼ - Talk21:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cuñado: To describe the Bab as a martyr to his followers, citing the above source, with its page number, is a good suggestion. Albertatiran (talk) 08:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC)