Talk:Russell Islands

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Map

The map: Map including the Russell Islands

@Drmies: General basis for inclusion (response to initial "Why?" removal rationale)

[1] "A link to a professionally done historical map of the region these islands are located in should not be deleted out of hand. It is obviously a valuable resource to researchers or people interested in this area."

Response to secondary removal rationale [2]:

"a. you'd have to argue this meets WP:ELYES"

WP:ELYES "3. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues,[4] amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons."

The map is neutral, accurate material relevant to an encyclpedic understanding of the subject, and may be unable to be integrated in the article due to copyright issues (Australian copyright) and/or due to amount of detail (is a map of the region generally; may be considered to be too much detail). Therefore, this may meet the standard under ELYES.

"b. it says "copyright commonwealth of australia 1998" but is hosted on a website in texas"

Library Web Material Usage Statement

"Copyright Not Held by University of Texas at Austin This site provides access to materials, licensed or otherwise, for which the copyright is held by owners other than the University of Texas at Austin. Use of these materials and resources is restricted by applicable license agreement and copyright law."

The Library is directly stating that they provide access to materials not copyrighted by the library and not in the public domain. Are they not allowed to provide access to these materials? If so, I will mail a formal complaint to U Tex about this map on their library website. It stands to reason that they have the right to provide access to the map, but that Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia may not have the right to upload it.

On this basis, I would like to restore this map.

Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The map includes the Russell Islands; the islands occupy less than 10% of that map. Whether it is of "obvious" benefit for an encyclopedic understanding of the subject remains to be seen: I don't see this benefit as clearly as you do. What we do NOT want is a free-for-all where we can start adding maps to every single article; this flies in the face certainly of the spirit of WP:EL. I find the copyright matter to be unclear, but Diannaaa will know. Drmies (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- reping Diannaa--sorry, miscounted all your As. ;) Drmies (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaaa and Drmies: Thank you for your response. It is true that the Russell Islands occupy less than 10% of the total area of the map. However, there is no map provided on this page right now with the level of detail that the map I am linking provides, mentioning local geographical features including: Kovllock Island, Marulaon Island, Leru Island, Hanasivi Island, West Bay, Mane Island, Leukemeghen Point, Mborokuna Island, Koemurun Island, Kaukau Island, Pavuvu Island, Boulaon Point, Baloka Point, Momoluan Island, Alokan Island, Manika Island, Yandina, Moe Ilsand, Laumuan Island, Lologhan Island, Fonagho Island and Falla Island. Also, the only other map on this page doesn't put the regional location of the Russell Islands within the Solomon Islands into context, while this map does.

There is no actually anticipated "free-for-all" of potential maps created by adding this map (no one has really made major edits here since 2017). Instead, with this map link, the readers are given a chance to get a detailed, professional understanding of the geography of the Russell Islands. If there were any chance that we would start seeing a lot of duplicate maps, then they could be removed or limited based on their respective utility to the page as a whole or based on whatever relevant policies govern. I don't plan on adding any more maps but this one.

It really is obvious what the value of providing this kind of resource to the readers is. If a reader were looking up information about the Russell Islands in the 20th century and wanted to know about island names at that time, they would absolutely love to have this map to consult. It would provide them with a historical context and background that Google Maps by its nature does not provide, and tells them about professional mapmakers' understanding of the geography in the late 20th century.

Adding this link will make this page more valuable to the readers who really want to know about the Russell Islands. If you make this page more valuable to those readers, then they may be more likely to make more edits here. Deleting this map link is at direct counter-purpose to the goal of Wikipedia, which is to make informative, sourced articles for the readers. That's why I feel so passionate about this map link- it's a chunk of professionally-made knowledge that will be an aid to someone in 2023 or 2025 who comes by and wants to do some research and/or Wikipedia editing about these islands.

My experience uploading maps on Wikimedia Commons doesn't inform me about Australian copyright, hence I wanted to add a link.

Did my responses satisfy your objections? Please let me know what you are thinking. I for my part am more convinced than ever that adding this link is very likely to be not only consistent with the spirit and letter of EL policy, but also with the general long-term interests of Wikipedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC) (modified)[reply]

I wish you'd keep your colons and asterisks separate: please see Wikipedia:Colons and asterisks. I do not know how to properly reformat your very lengthy post in order to keep it accessible to those with visual impairments, and so you are forcing me to continue with your style.

"There is no anticipated free for all" is ... well, a statement without any evidence. For over a decade I have been cleaning up External links sections, and yes, we need to keep these within guidelines, since all too often we hear "well look what they have over on article X". YOU are suggesting that this will not affect THIS article, but I am not interested in just this article. No, we are not going to add links to maps found here and there on the internet to this article, lest this provides a rationale to editors to provide such things on every article. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: Can you see my point that the map has useful information on it about the Russell Islands? Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The usefulness of the map is beside the point. The university is hosting a map to which they do not hold the copyright, so according to Wikipedia's rules, we should not be linking to it.— Diannaa (talk) 11:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: Thanks for looking at this.

I don't think the copyright question is the open and shut case you seem to portray it as. Here's what I wrote above about the copyright issue (with modification):

Library Web Material Usage Statement

"Copyright Not Held by University of Texas at Austin This site provides access to materials, licensed or otherwise, for which the copyright is held by owners other than the University of Texas at Austin. Use of these materials and resources is restricted by applicable license agreement and copyright law." (my emphasis)

The Library is directly stating that they provide access to materials not copyrighted by the library and not in the public domain. Are they not allowed to provide access to these materials? If so, I will mail a formal complaint to U Tex about this map on their library website. It stands to reason that they have the right to provide access to the map, but that Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia may not have the right to allow uploading it. In that case, it seems just fine for Wikipedia to link to their collection. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC) (modified)[reply]

Our external links guideline states that we should never link to content that violates someone else's copyright. Please see WP:ELNEVER; it states that "Policy: material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked, whether in an external-links section or in a citation". That's pretty clear. The fact that the university is aware that they do not hold the copyright on the map does not change anything.— Diannaa (talk) 12:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: Are you are alleging that the University of Texas website is violating someone else's copyright by providing access to this map? How could they do that? How could they make that kind of error when they explicitly and directly acknowledge in the Library Web Material Usage Statement that they provide access to things outside the public domain that aren't copyrighted by the library? Isn't it more likely that they have considered these issues and that they are allowed to provide access to these materials? You quoted the policy that says "Policy: material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked, whether in an external-links section or in a citation". But what I'm saying is that this link doesn't violate the copyrights of others unless the University of Texas is not allowed to provide access to this material, and the library seems to explicitly believe (in their Library Web Material Usage Statement) that they are allowed to provide access to this type of material. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC) (modified)[reply]

They plainly state that they are not the copyright holder and that they are hosting content to which they don't hold the copyright. What this means is that we are not allowed to link to the map, because it's a violation of Wikipedia's rules to do so. — Diannaa (talk) 12:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Diannaa: The Library Web Material Usage Statement plainly says they provide access to materials outside public domain and outside their own copyright. It's not against Wikipedia policy to link to materials that are legally posted online. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's incorrect for you to say "legally". Please stop pinging me; I have answered the query several times and I am not going to change my mind.— Diannaa (talk) 12:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You have made a claim that it is incorrect for me to say "legally". I wrote, in the abstract, that "It's not against Wikipedia policy to link to materials that are legally posted online." That's just true. Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have posted this to the Dispute Resolution Board. [3] Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Geographyinitiative, you asked, "Can you see my point that the map has useful information on it about the Russell Islands?" I can see it, but I don't agree with it, since it would apply to every single article on Wikipedia that has something to do with geography. And badgering Diannaa in a matter in which she clearly has expertise is just really silly. Did I see you say, earlier, that you were going to take this up with the University of Texas library? Good luck with that. What are you trying to achieve here, on this page and on Wikipedia? Drmies (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: Thanks for your response and recognition that I am making an argument that you do not agree with. Please don't get angry with me. If I am allowed to respond to your comments, then I would like to respond to what you just said, point by point.

# 1 You said: "I can see it, but I don't agree with it, since it would apply to every single article on Wikipedia that has something to do with geography."

#1 I respond: This article is essentially a stub. There are a lot of geography articles that have advanced beyond that point and do not need the structure that would be provided by including a regional map like this, because we have made in-house maps or because of the obviousness of the material on the map. But this map link I want to add on this page (quoting myself from the dispute resolution page) "provides readers access to a detailed, professional late 20th century map of the Russell Islands that names 22 geographical features in those islands. No other resource on this Wikipedia page has this information; neither does Google Maps or Bing Maps." That is obviously valuable to the community at large as well as to the readers and editors actually interested in these specific islands.

#2 You said: "badgering Diannaa in a matter in which she clearly has expertise is just really silly."

#2 My Response: If someone engages with me and I respond to their points directly, then there's no violation of Wikipedia policy. When the user asked me to stop pinging them, I did so. I don't doubt Diannaa's credentials or sincerity, but I do doubt that U Tex is illegally posting images of copyrighted material online.

#3 You said: “I see you say, earlier, that you were going to take this up with the University of Texas library? Good luck with that.”

#3 My Response: As a responsible Wikipedia editor, I contacted U Tex about three hours ago, and I will let you know what they say if I get any further response. They told me to look at one of the FAQ answers and their Library Web Material Usage Statement (quoted above), and then when I had questions about those, I was referred to another person.

Part of their response: [4] "Please note that we are unable to scan in copyrighted maps." This implies that they have some rationale or ability to show that their map scan on their website is not illegally posted. They are a reputable source, not a fly-by-night, copyrighted-map-posting diploma mill.

#4 You said: "What are you trying to achieve here, on this page and on Wikipedia?"

#4 My Response: I am making useful edits that improve the utility of the Wikipedia encyclopedia to the readers and to promote its growth. I have an awareness of geography that is relatively rare, and I enjoy sharing whatever knowledge or resources I can. In the process, I often discover new things that I had previously overlooked or not realized. The Russell Islands are just a page that I came across and added a map link on.

Again, I ask for patience. Thanks for your time. Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC) (modified)[reply]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on #4. I assume that by now your specious DRN thread is closed. Drmies (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: What can I do to increase your confidence in me? Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:15, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Write less and more economically. Don't dig more when you're in a hole (I've been here a dozen years and I would NEVER pick a battle with someone as knowledgeable as Diannaa). Thank you for asking: that increases confidence. BTW I think that that map is a thing of beauty. I love maps. I love islands. But it is not for here. Drmies (talk) 01:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What I suggest that we do is use Openstreetmap here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/-9.0587/159.1370 . Add labels to all the geographical features, islands, bays, headlands, reefs, and then take a copy of that map. This is free to use on Wikipedia. The RAAF map printed by NIMA is not free to use and still under crown copyright. Since it is replaceable it is not compliant with the NFCC. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:30, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was attracted here by the DRN case but it was closed before I could comment. I'm not a copyright expert or anything but I've had lots of exposure to all the rules through doing work here, at Commons, and at English Wikisource over the years. Hut 8.5's explanation at DRN seems straightforward and nuts-and-bolts to me: WP:ELNEVER says that linking to copyrighted works should only be done if the website is manifestly run, maintained or owned by the copyright owner; the website has licensed the work from the owner; or it uses the work in a way compliant with fair use University of Texas at Austin doesn't claim to be licensing it or making a fair use exception.
I'd kind of wonder how this rule works out when Wikipedia makes a citation to an orphan work at the Internet Archive or HathiTrust, for example; but this map is not an orphan work and the consequence of policy is clear in this case, that this article cannot link to the map at any web site not run by the Commonwealth of Australia or having obtained a license. Graeme Bartlett's suggestion to enhance Openstreetmap and use it instead seems an excellent idea though.
p.s. but you could also try a reverse image search to attempt to find the image published on a web site run by the Commonwealth of Australia; I tried TinEye with no luck but there are others. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 03:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This has prompted me to upload my photos of Russell Islands, which I will shortly put on commons. This is in early days of digital cameras so the pictures are not great. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While doing that I came across a superior set of maps available here: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1645917570 . This has three sheets covering Russell Islands, and names far more features. I used those names on the images I uploaded. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]