Talk:Russian separatist forces in Ukraine/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Russian Separatist Forces

"Russian Separatist Forces in Ukraine" or "Russian Separatist Forces of Ukraine" are my suggestions for a new name of this article. Zyxrq (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - no clear consensus. (non-admin closure) Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

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Russian people's militias in Ukraine → Collaborationist Ukrainian Army – Russia and the puppet regimes have long since self claiming collaborator units are regular army instead of militias. And these units and are now openly being integrated into the Russian military. Also, Russian mandatory conscription now covers all Russian-occupied territories and the nature of these units are not volunteer groups. 罗放 (talk) 16:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 20:15, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

However this was not always the case, I think we should keep as is. Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Indeed we can discuss for a better naming, but the point is many units are not considered as militias, either by Russians and Ukrainians nowadays. ukwiki is using the term like "Russian occupation force at Donbas", which I'm afraid also not precise enough. 罗放 (talk) 02:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Russian 1st and 2nd Army Corps is a precise name, but probably not the most commonly used. —Michael Z. 17:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Yep. Also "Collaborationist Ukrainian Army" is not commonly used, and it's not NPOV. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:45, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

A similar article Collaborationist Chinese Army can be found on wikipedia and it seems that one is not considered as "not NPOV". I doubt is there any reason making this naming non-neutral? 罗放 (talk) 02:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I don’t think it’s necessarily POV as a description, but it is not a name that’s commonly used for this subject. Have a look at WP:TITLE for the naming criteria.  —Michael Z. 02:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

What do RS call it? Slatersteven (talk) 09:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of reliable sources refer to them as "pro-Russian separatists". Recently we had a big RM, which for some reason no longer appears neither on this talk page nor in the archived one. I opened it on 13 August and it should be here Talk:Russian_people's_militias_in_Ukraine#Requested_move_13_August_2022. Where did it go? Here you can spot it through a diff. There were 13 or 14 editors ho supported the move and 7 who opposed it, and the result was "no consensus". Here I raised some objections against the result, which I think was wrong. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

The issue with the missing discussion has been solved and the failed requested move to "Pro-Russian separatist forces in Donbas" can now be found at Talk:Russian_people's_militias_in_Ukraine/Archive_1#Requested_move_13_August_2022. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

“Pro-Russian separatists” and similar names are very general, and don’t necessarily identify the specific military formations, as opposed to the political puppet leadership, its active supporters, etcetera. When they are referred to specifically, it is usually one or the other. For example, “the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) People’s Militia” on first use, then “DNR People’s Militia,” as the Institute for the Study of War consistently does.[1] I found one where the two are collectively “militia units from the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics”[2] (in my opinion it is a mistake not to use both full names of the “republics” in a title that may be presented in isolation to readers not familiar with the subject).  —Michael Z. 22:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, obviously, they are no longer “separatists” because separatism is a serious crime in Russia and its occupied territories.  —Michael Z. 22:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Since the international community does not recognise DPR and LPR as states or as legitimate subjects ("republics") of the Russian federation, I don't see why we should use the "official" name of the separatists. Most of the sources call them pro-Russian separatists, and our readers likely identify them as such, so I would use that name. But if for some reason we prefer the official name, "militias of the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics" should be fine, without making it unbearably long, complicated and weird. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:50, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

"Collaborationist Ukrainian Army" implies a direct link with the Ukrainan Army that does not seem to exist.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 10:23, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Collaborationist Ukrainian Army" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Collaborationist Ukrainian Army and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 7 § Collaborationist Ukrainian Army until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:36, 7 January 2023 (UTC)