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Merge

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Appear to be duplicate articles. --evrik 18:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

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--evrik 21:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


"SG-19 consisted of six ships: Dorchester, two merchant ships leased by the United States from the Norwegian government-in-exile, SS Lutz, and SS Biscaya." So, where's the other ship then? Or were there actually five ships?


Coast Guard material

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The material on the role of the U.S. Coast Guard cannot be copyright violation, since the U.S. Coast Guard provided the material, and as a work of the United States Government it is in the public domain. GABaker 2 Aug 2006 19:40 UTC

Not USAT

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The ship was one of the War Shipping Administration transports, operated by Agwilines, allocated to Army requirements. Despite some popular references to "United States Army transport" and U.S.A.T., the MARAD record and other official sources, including Army, show otherwise and with rare exception correctly show SS Dorchester. Palmeira (talk) 16:32, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The MARAD link you provided says nothing. To the contrary, http://www.fourchaplains.org/ uses USAT, Dan Kurzman's book No Greater Glory uses USAT, and reprints of original documents found at http://www.armed-guard.com/dork.html use USAT (and SS), and On Point (the journal of the Army Historical Foundation) uses USAT. I do not think you are correct. – S. Rich (talk) 01:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just because you are unfamiliar with the MARAD VSC terminology or others have made the same mistake does not change a fact. The card for a vessel that was definitely U.S.A.T. as Army owned look at Fred C. Ainsworth where you will see "War Department" and "Purch" under form of agreement. A bareboat charter, all but "owned" as Army was responsible for all crewing, maintenance and such is seen for Belle Isle where you will see delivery to WSA and "War Department" with form of agreement (Army with WSA) as "BB". An Army charter agreement under WSA can be seen for Hawaiian Merchant where you will see delivery to WSA from Matson and then a simultaneous charter with Matson as operator under "TCA" (Transportation Corps Agreement) in which Army's role is not as clear and all inclusive as in a bareboat but the charter agreement is under Army terms rather than the general WSA operator agreement (GAA).
For Dorchester the card says precisely what the ship's status was: On 1-24-42 at 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time the ship was turned over to WSA and simultaneously turned over to Agwilines for operation under a General Agency Agreement (GAA). The ship was not purchased or otherwise delivered to Army ownership, was not bareboat chartered by Army or even under a Transportation Corps agreement (TCA) at any point up to sinking. Thus the ship was never a United States Army transport. The fact various sources, even some official statements (and I can pull equal and more reliable official sources that clearly only use "S.S. Dorchester), confuse the vessel's actual status does not change the actual fact that the ship was WSA, not Army. For official differences in USAT/WSA shipboard relationships see the Army's FM 55-105 where a United States Army Transport master comes directly under the command of the Port Commander as does the Transport Commander (administrative command of embarked personnel, not the ship). Compare with a WSA Allocated Vessel where master's command chain is through the ship operators (WSA agents) to WSA and has only a liaison relationship with the Army. In fact, you will see the TC Port Commander only has a liaison role with the local WSA office. A whole bunch of people, even some seemingly knowing ones, saying Anchorage is the capital of Alaska does not change the fact it is not. Palmeira (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What occurs with the Ainsworth or Belle Isle or Hawaiian Merchant does not change what the available RS says about the Dorchester. (Please take at look at WP:TRUTH.) So far the reliable sources say USAT. So we must go with what the RS says. This is not a big issue. I think (not for sure) that it can be resolved by simply re-titling the article Dorchester without the USAT or SS. We then tweak the lede and infobox. – S. Rich (talk) 04:43, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The reliable source, akin to a DMV title, is the MARAD record that records status of its vessels—the official record of ownership, charter and operation. It is the reliable source that trumps your third party and not particularly expert sources. The detail on USAT vs Allocated is again found in FM 55-105 here. As an interesting example of "official" problems in status note that the Armed Guard statement is signed by a Lieutenant (USNR) and a Lieutenant (jg) (USNR) reporting through Navy channels. It is very common for even people assigned to transports to be unclear on exact charter agreements in force, particularly since Army (unlike Navy) did not militarize its owned or chartered transports. They looked pretty much like merchant ships and were in fact merchant ships under government control when just allocated, time or voyage chartered. There are also plenty of cases in which Army troops write home or in "illegal" diaries (officially forbidden) about sailing on USS Something when it was actually a USAT—so here on Wikipedia I sometimes find "reliable sources" to veteran or unit pages that keep talking about that USS that was Army or WSA and was never touched by Navy. I'm not arguing fact any further regardless of what someone writing about the chaplains or Naval Armed Guard junior officers have put down and on web pages. Palmeira (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have to chuckle as to "reliable sources" such as this one: Coast Guard Compass with:

"Stewards-Mate First Class Charles Walter David Jr. served aboard CGC Comanche on North Atlantic convoy duty during World War II. His dauntless character was put into action on the night of February 3, 1943 as the U.S. Army transport USS Dorchester was torpedoed by a U-boat off the coast of Greenland."

"U.S. Army transport" the "USS"? These blunders in vessel status are fairly common and the source may be quite "reliable" on the other specifics, in that case the story of David, while totally inaccurate on another and quite clear matter-of-fact such as a vessel's status. Palmeira (talk) 13:39, 19 April 2015 (UTC

Indeed, there is inaccuracy everywhere. (SM1 David is an example of why we don't use blogs.) And the MARAD status car [)http://www.marad.dot.gov/sh/ShipHistory/Detail/7638#cards] says WSA and operated by Agwilines. But are you engaging in OR when you say SS vice USAT? The FM you cite does not talk about how ships get these designations does it? (Also, it was published in 1944. What was the controlling directive before the ship was sunk?) I fear you are injecting a lot of your personal expertise into this. Please find something good that explicitly, clearly refers the the SS Dorchester being sunk. – S. Rich (talk) 16:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And you are becoming quite argumentative counter some clear fact. The FM was the issue on line, continuing previous policies. The FM I cite does not talk about how ships get these designations? On pages 11 and 12:
13. DEFINITION AND POLICIES. Oceangoing vessels in Army service which are operated by the Transportation Corps, as dlstinct irom those which are allocated, bear the title, United States Arniy Transport, and the initials USAT precede the name of the ship when it is written.
OR? The MARAD VSC are on line, open to all on the web and so is the Army policy guidance. The VSC shows WSA with operation by Agwilines, not the Transportation Corps as is clearly stated as a condition for USAT above. The fact that a whole lots of writers and web pages have not done their vetting of fact does not alter the fact this ship was allocated, not owned, bareboat or even otherwise under Army charter. Grover in U.S. Army Ships and Watercraft of World War II has that. Yes, the ship has often been called "USAT Dorchester, it did transport Army troops and in a general sense was an Army transport—it was no more a USAT than some of the famous WSA (or actual Army) transports commonly termed USS were commissioned Navy ships. My personal expertise is only finding the accurate, authoritative reliable references here for the particular matter of what agency operated the ship despite other references, perhaps accurate in other matters, being just counter to the facts. You are beginning to sound un convincable, as if a lawyer were arguing newspaper and even initial police reports a car in an accident was owned by driver Jim Jones govern when DMV title information actually show it was uncle James Doe that actually owned the vehicle. Palmeira (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Paragraph 13 helps tremendously. (I was scanning for USAT and missed the full phrase.) But we need verification that this was the policy at the time of the sinking. And we need to explain why USAT is so commonly used by other references. Can we simply title the article Dorchester and add clarifications, perhaps in footnotes? – S. Rich (talk) 17:24, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(copied from User talk:Palmeira for others that might be interested) The USAT tagging of ships that were not is fairly common even among people writing about some aspect of the ships but not specialist in those technical matters of WW II WSA/Army/Navy operation. For example, in making sure I could not find an authoritative Army counter to the MARAD vessel status entries I found one of the "Green Books" using USAT Dorchester. That was one covering the Medical services, written by a medical person who made an innocent mistake outside their particular area of expertise. That seems to be the case with some of the other references you are citing. They may be "authoritative" about the Chaplain Corps or even the events of the sinking, but have none and really no need for expertise in how oceangoing hulls were switched about under the umbrella authority of WSA, which was a true "Czar" when it came to commercial type ocean going ships. Even some of the USS, commissioned, merchant types were under "loan" or bareboat charter from WSA.

David Grover, author of the 1987 Naval Institute Press book U.S. Army Ships and Watercraft of World War II in Introduction, page xiii notes:

Designations of Army ships have never been as clear cut as have those of the Navy. In general, a ship owned by or under bareboat charter to the Army has been designated by the letters USAT, for U.S. Army Transport, preceding the ship's name. Ships allocated to the Army or under voyage or time charter retained their civilian designations as steamships or motorships.

Chapter I, page 3 repeats the FM 55-105 basics with:

The formal designation, USAT, for U.S. Army Transport was officially reserved for those vessels owned by, or bareboat chartered to, the Army as opposed to those vessels that were allocated by the War Shipping Administration (WSA) or were under other forms of charter.

References such as Grover, those MARAD "forms of agreement" and Army publications support Army levels of control in decreasing degree as:

  • Owned (USAT) with civilian employees of the Transportation Corps.
  • Bareboat chartered (USAT) with Transportation Corps responsible for and having control of everything except actual legal title.
  • Army chartered (not USAT), those TCA agreements in the MARAD cards.
  • Army chartered (not USAT) under time/voyage contracts that might last only the duration of a trip from port to unloading at another.

Army's ship usage was complicated by Army's view of ships without naval "love" and as just a means of getting stuff across oceans (reflected in categorizing them as "floating equipment"!). Grover mentions Navy had a clear way of treating the ships it considered part of its fleet, even WSA allocated ones. Army ships, apart from "a few show-place USAT ships" did not stand out and "resembled other merchant vessels more than they did military vessels" and for Army allocated cargo ships with only one or two TC people "control of these vessels was not apparent, even to the knowledgeable observer"—and that is one reason even troops and passengers embarked sometimes were quite confused as to just what organization was in charge of the ship. At least the big troopers had extensive Army TC staffs, that "Transport Commander" who was not responsible for the ship, that dealt with those being transported. Sort of sad, but then no Army Major ever made General on the merits of outstanding duty aboard and Army ship. No line Admiral made that grade without! Thus Navy treasures its ship histories, particularly commissionings and command, and Army largely tossed its records when the ships became inactive. Palmeira (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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