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Requested move

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Discussion on a proposal to rename the article "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)" is taking place at "Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board#Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) related articles.". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title you propose sounds odd to me. Alternative suggestion: Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit in Singapore sounds much better and it is clearer. See WP:NCDAB: a parenthetical word should be a generic class, or a subject, or a context; I don't think "Singapore" is any of these. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 15:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jack, I think you jumped the gun on this a little, as there's still a discussion in progress at Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board#Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) related articles.
Re: the parenthesis, I gather the reason is that the proper name of the system is "Mass Rapid Transit", so they're needed to qualify that that this is Singapore's version (and not the one in Bangkok, Delhi, Kaohsiung, yadda yadda). If this is to be changed, then the parent article should probably also be renamed accordingly. Jpatokal (talk) 05:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Oahiyeel (talk) 0538:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has move the Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit to Safety on Singapore Mass Rapid Transit (diff). For consistency with the parent article, I had moved this to Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore), together with other related articles. Mr Huaiwei has challenged that the moves are unnecessary and wants to revert them. I'm sick and tired of dealing with him. If anyone would be interested to engage in a discussion regarding this issue with him, please to do so, and when you guys manage to come to a consensus, make any necessary changes. Thanks. - oahiyeel talk 07:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Feeling "sick and tired of dealing" with anyone is not a valid reason not to discuss any potential major change to articles, and it is about high time you learn to work in a team, this being the second time you have taken the decision to make major discussions either without allowing time for others to provide their thoughts, or failing to initiate a discussion at all prior to the move, as you have done here. The Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) is where it is because there are existing articles of entities with the same name (and even then, that is debatable, for all entries listed in Mass Rapid Transit already takes another name). However, this does not apply to related articles which do not have direct duplicates. It is not necessary to practise consistency in naming in terms of disambiguation. As I have mentioned in Oahiyeel's talkpage, making unnecessarily long article names decreases their likelihood in appearing in google searches, and this is not in our interests. I would therefore request that all said articles be moved back to their original locations immediately until consensus is found to move otherwise, failing which I will take the initiative to undo the changes myself.--Huaiwei (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that there are at least five transport systems in the world called "Mass Rapid Transit", and from the name, there's no way to guess which one "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit" is referring to. ("The" MRT?) So yes, it should be disambiguated. Jpatokal (talk) 08:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And which are the five systems? From the Mass Rapid Transit article, we have:
Do any of these articles actually take the Mass Rapid Transit name the same way the Singapore system does? Nope. Because if there is, each of the articles above should be at Mass Rapid Transit (Kaohsiung), at Mass Rapid Transit (Taipei), at Mass Rapid Transit (Bangkok) and at Mass Rapid Transit (Delhi), which they are not. The Singapore system's domination of the full Mass Rapid Transit name is actually pretty obvious.--Huaiwei (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All of those five can be called "Mass Rapid Transit", which is why they're listed at Mass Rapid Transit. (The MRT disambig in fact lists 8, and even that's missing a few, eg. the Bangalore MRT.) For example, in the results of a Google search for "mass rapid transit", 13 out of the first 20 hits do not refer to Singapore's MRT.
But this is all rather beside the point. There are cases where subarticles don't need disambiguation, because the context is obvious from the title: eg. Apple picking can only refer to the fruit, and History of Apple can only refer to the company. However, it's not at all obvious from the name that Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit refers to Singapore's MRT. Trying Google again, "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit" gets a lot of WP hits plus links about MRTs in Bangkok, Taipei, India, etc, so clearly even the subarticle name is by no means exclusive to Singapore. Jpatokal (talk) 16:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fact number 1: None of those articles are using the "Mass Rapid Transit" name with disambiguation. Fact number 2: None of those entities in question are known officially or less officially in full exclusively by the phrase "Mass Rapid Transit" in the way the Singapore system was. The last I checked, you added the Bangkok and Taipei entities to the list, both of which no longer use the phrase extensively. The MRT can certainly list far more, for the initials "MRT" can refer to alot more possible words, including, of course, the Metropolitan Rapid Transit in Taipei, and no one is actually debating on that, nor is anyone calling for the Singapore system to be moved to MRT despite that being its most common name. The order of entries appearing in google can hardly be used as a reasonable indication, but I do note in particular that the Singapore system clearly appears right on top. Exclusivity is not the primary argument here. Notability is when it comes to claiming article naming, and the Singapore Mass Rapid Transit system obviously ranks far higher than the systems in Bangkok, Delhi, Kaohsiung, and to some extent, even Taipei, in this arena.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me put the question very simply: if Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit should not be disambiguated, because Singapore has (in your words) "domination of the full Mass Rapid Transit name" and "obviously ranks far higher", then why does Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) need a disambiguator? Jpatokal (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the edit histories are anything to go by, you created this article at Mass Rapid Transit on 31 December 2003, before moving it to the current location on 18 July 2004 without really asking anyone about it. Even at that juncture when you added the Bangkok and Taipei systems to the disambg page to justify such a move, the two articles were at Bangkok Subway and Taipei Rapid Transit System respectively, and not competing for the "Mass Rapid Transit" name itself. So really, I would actually like to know why you had this change of heart yourself.
But the naming of the original article is actually quite besides the point. You yourself showed that there is simply no policy nor guideline dictating that supplementary articles must be named exactly the same way as their parent articles. Or was I misinformed?--Huaiwei (talk) 12:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I created the Singapore MRT article? Cool! I didn't even remember. But the reason for my "change of heart" is quite obvious: until July 3, 2004, Singapore was the only operating "Mass Rapid Transit" system with an article on Wikipedia. Then Bangkok's MRT opened, and the Delhi MRTS was written up, and now it's been followed by Kaohsiung, plus soon Bangalore etc.
But as you said, "the naming of the original article is actually quite besides the point". Instead, the point — which you failed to address — is this: if Singapore MRT needs a disambiguator, why does "Safety on the MRT" not need one?
And no, I'm not arguing that "supplementary articles must be named exactly the same way as their parent articles". Quite the contrary, I would be quite OK with "Safety on the MRT (Singapore)" or "Safety on the Singapore MRT", which both make it perfectly clear that this is about the Singapore MRT, not MRTs in general or somewhere else. Jpatokal (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But you would have noted that the Bangkok article was not trying to claim the Mass Rapid Transit name, and neither are any of the subsequent systems which sprung up. So how does that explain your decision to disambiguate the article in this format, when an alternative format (using disambiguation links) as seen in the MTR article would have sufficed?
Why the MRT article is disambiguated while Safety on the MRT is not? Simple. Because there are no articles on Safety on the MRT (Bangkok), Safety on the MRT (Taipei), and etc.
Well then thank you for acknowledging that consistency is not a logical or tenable argument, the very argument that dearest Oahiyeel has insisted on and which sparked the entire debate.--Huaiwei (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're going in circles. There are many MRTs, Singapore doesn't have a monopoly on the name, that's why the name is disambigged, and that's why Safety on the MRT also needs the disambig. See my next comment below. Jpatokal (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And you are simply repeating yourself. There are only three systems called the Mass Rapid Transit with wikipedia articles, and the Singapore system is the most notable of the three. There are no articles on the sub-articles such as history and safety, hence there is no current need to disambiguate. See my upcoming responses below.--Huaiwei (talk) 17:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ha. Ha. How are the name changes "potentially debatable"? Esp since they are not misleading in anyway? And wow! What an abuse of WP:AWB :) - oahiyeel talk 05:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since we are already in debate, I reckon that your comment it already proven redundant. ;)--Huaiwei (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Oahiyeel and Jpatokal. "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)" is the most appropriate name for the article because (1) it avoids the possibility that readers will visit the article thinking it deals with safety on mass rapid transit systems generally, or mass rapid transit systems in a different part of the world; and (2) it is in line with the naming of the article "Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you would have similar concerns that readers of the Art in MTR article would assume they are going to read about art in the Museum of Television and Radio?--Huaiwei (talk) 15:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike MRT, there is only one transport system called "MTR". Additionally, "Art in MTR" is actually the proper name of a corporate initiative, not an article about "Art in the MTR". (That said, I'm less than convinced that "MTR" is the best name for the transport system in question, but that's neither here nor there.) Jpatokal (talk) 16:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh really. Apparantly, MTR Western runs buses, so MTR Feeder Bus and List of MTR stations must be somehow related. And since we are now into the issue of proper names, I sure hope the future projects of the MTR does not cause people to believe that the Montour Railroad is building more lines, the MTR Gaming Group is building more casinos, and that the Mavalli Tiffin Room is going to open more restaurants?--Huaiwei (talk) 19:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, "other stuff exists" is not a particularly strong argument. Anyway, doesn't the fact that the MTR articles may be poorly named (as Jpatokal recognized) lend support to "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)" being the more appropriate name for the article in question? — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 19:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you may be familiar with wikipedia's policies and guidelines, WP:OSE is 1. merely an essay, which holds no ground in such debates, and 2. WP:OSE is an argument (allegedly not to be) used in debates over article deletions, and not article naming, which are two completely different issues. A naming dispute is governed by the naming conventions, and since this debate is over disambiguation, we should refer to WP:DAB. Which part of WP:DAB supports your viewpoint? As for MTR being poorly named, you may take note of the fact that it is a featured article, and that three past attempts to move the article, two of which I was involved in, has failed[1][2][3]. So like it or not, the existance of a precedence do show that there is no immediate requirement to start disambiguating every reference to an article which is disambiguated. If so, are we going to move City Hall MRT Station to City Hall Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) Station and Circle MRT Line to Circle Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) Line?--Huaiwei (talk) 12:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguation is not necessary for Singapore's City Hall MRT Station or Circle MRT Line, because there are no other City Hall MRT Stations or Circle MRT Lines elsewhere. Maybe someday there will be, and on that day, they will have to be disambiguated -- but until then, they are perfectly unambiguous. Jpatokal (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And that is where you are wrong. Circle MRT Line's official and common name is actually just Circle Line. And there is apparently a very famous Circle Line in London as well as ten other entities being referred to as the "Circle Line", some of which are also rail lines. City Hall MRT Station, normally just called City Hall Station, has counterparts in New York, in Seoul, in Philadelphia, and five other similar names stations around the world. So since consistency is one of the main argument here, shall we start moving all our station and rail lines?--Huaiwei (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me correct myself: Additional disambiguation is not necessary for those articles. Consider the following three names.
1) "Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)"
2) "Circle MRT Line"
3) "Safety on the MRT"
Number 1 is not ambiguous. It's clear from the name what it refers to (the Mass Rapid Transit in Singapore), it cannot be reasonably understood to refer to anything else, and it will stay that way.
Number 2 is potentially ambiguous. There are no other "Circle MRT Lines" anywhere, so at the moment there is no real potential for confusion (try Google: circle mrt line, even without quotes, returns only links related to Singapore as far as I can see), but it's not "future-proof" as another Circle MRT Line (or Circle Line MRT or what have you) could be built.
Number 3 is ambiguous, period. There are a large number of MRT systems that could be covered by such a name, and the name doesn't make it at all clear which is "the" system it's talking about.
So, my interest in this discussion is noting that Safety on the MRT is not an acceptable name according to WP:PRECISION, and a better name must be found. I do not hold strong views on what that name is. I do not find the current Singapore MRT naming conventions particularly consistent, but as long as they don't fall into "type 3" ambiguity, I doubt it's worth the considerable hassle of changing them. Jpatokal (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And as I have said earlier:
1) There are two types of disambiguation: disambiguation pages and disambiguation links. The current format uses the former, on the simple assumption that "there are more than one rail system with the same name". Yet this ignores another issue of notability. The Singapore system is by far the most notable amongst all similarly named entities, and disambiguation links could have been a far better option from day one.
2) "Circle MRT Line" is in itself a disambiguation page. However, it does not reflect official nor common names of the said rail line, and violates current naming policies pertaining to common names. So if we are to apply the disambiguation correctly, this article should be named "Circle Line (MRT)". But since we consider "MRT" as too general, the option in accordance to the rest of the arguments here would necessitate an article called "Circle Line (Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore))". It may appear silly, but that was precisely what you guys are arguing for in essence.
3)However, the name is not at "Safety on the MRT", but at "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit". If we now refer back to point 1, WP:PRECISION need not be applied, because the Mass Rapid Transit name is dominated by the Singapore system. The ambiguity presented by this article is not much better than an article like "Circle MRT Line", as your partly alluded to. But may I also ask how do you expect a person not familiar with the world's rail lines to know that there is only one such rail line in the first place?--Huaiwei (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PRECISION and WP:NAME are not about "notability", they're about ambiguity.
WP:NAME: Do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings.
WP:PRECISION: If a word or phrase is ambiguous, and an article concerns only one of the meanings of that word or phrase, it should usually be titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase.
So, the question is, does the phrase "Mass Rapid Transit" have other meanings than Singapore's Mass Rapid Transit?
Now, I've earlier shown that 13 of 20, that's two thirds, of the first Google hits for "Mass Rapid Transit" are not about the Singapore MRT. Here's another indication: mass rapid transit -singapore gets 300,000 hits, while allowing "Singapore" only increases that to 380,000. That equates to 78%, over three quarters, of "mass rapid transit" content out there not being about, or even mentioning, Singapore. Do you consider this 22% mind share "dominant"? Jpatokal (talk) 19:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My thoughts:
  • My point in mentioning "Wikipedia:Other stuff exists" is that given the way Wikipedia develops, it is almost always possible to find some articles that will support one's point. But that doesn't mean that those articles don't themselves have problems.
  • "Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision)" says "If a word or phrase is ambiguous, and an article concerns only one of the meanings of that word or phrase, it should usually be titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase". In this case, "Mass Rapid Transit" is ambiguous.
  • I agree there is no general rule that articles related to a disambiguated article must all be named in exactly the same way as the disambiguated article, but in this case I feel it makes sense to name the article "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)" because "Safety on the Mass Rapid Transit" is potentially ambiguous – it could be an article about safety on mass rapid transit systems generally, or about safety on one of the other systems in the world that goes by the name "mass rapid transit".
While discussion here proceeds, I have formally listed the article (which is currently named "Safety on Singapore Mass Rapid Transit", by the way) at "Wikipedia:Requested moves". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the same goes for the history, fares & ticketing, facilities and security articles... - oahiyeel talk 19:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, listed. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 04:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, you are comparing with a featured article no less, an article which is expected to follow all wikipedia's policies and guidelines. This is not an instance of simply plucking any badly-named article for comparison, clearly.
  • As has been argued above, "Mass Rapid Transit" is not necessarily ambiguous, not any more than the MTR-related articles are. Instead of moving articles when no other conflicting article exists, disambiguation links could have been better alternatives. As it stands, the notability of the MRT in Singapore is far greater than any similarly named article (and that includes the Kaoshiung and Bangalore ones, but excludes the Bangkok, Delhi, or Taipei ones, for none of these are named "MRT" today).
  • Thank you for acknowledging this aspect of the debate. As for the issue of ambiguity, see above.
  • Thanks for the initiative, but I hope it doesen;t result in a forking of discussions.--Huaiwei (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You stated earlier that "...nor is anyone calling for the Singapore system to be moved to MRT despite that being its most common name." Are you now reversing this stance, and calling for Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) to be moved to Mass Rapid Transit after all? Jpatokal (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My earlier comment was a stated fact. There is simply no one calling for the Singapore system to be moved to MRT now. Do you see me launching a move request on the above article at this juncture? Nope. However, I make no bones about stating that I have all along believed that the Mass Rapid Transit article should be resided by the Singapore system. My failure to take a more active stance to realise my personal believe does not indicate a stance reversal, and I am obviously not going to start one just to prove a point.--Huaiwei (talk) 17:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So we have consensus? - oahiyeel talk 03:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All in favor except Huaiwei, as usual... Jpatokal (talk) 14:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thankfully, Wikipedia is not a democracy. A whole bunch of folks can paint the lone ranger as an irritant for having a different view, but ultimately, it is the arguments and solution with the best adherence to wikipedia policy which will prevail.--Huaiwei (talk) 14:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mm, such mavericky maverickness! Now chew on WP:PRECISION: "Be precise when necessary; don't title articles ambiguously when the title has other meanings." Jpatokal (talk) 17:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And I do believe you do realise that application of WP:PRECISION is still based on whether precision is necessary in the first place? Surely you are not so new to wikipedia not to discover that there are countless discussions on the same issue involving other articles?--Huaiwei (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, what a strong statement. Maybe you would like to read this statement by an established & well trusted editor on WP about fetishizing policy. Also what happened to your insistence on consensus for almost every change to WP? :) - oahiyeel talk 04:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well one can swing from citing policy to support his view, or choose to ignore all rules when they do not suit his stance, so I do not simply buy what any "trusted editor" says, especially when it conveniently suits your agenda at this juncture. And as per my comment below, could you elaborate on just how am I moving away from WP:Consensus through the above debate?--Huaiwei (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When you said "A whole bunch of folks can paint the lone ranger as an irritant for having a different view, but ultimately, it is the arguments and solution with the best adherence to wikipedia policy which will prevail." Isn't it already obvious there has already been a consensus and that you are now conveniently trying to change your stance so as to suit your arguments. - oahiyeel talk 18:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I can summarize the debate so far, it seems that the main issues that need resolution are these:

It may be fruitful to focus on reaching consensus on these issues. One more thought: "MTR" may be a featured article, but I'm not sure we can assume that it complies fully with all Wikipedia guidelines. A review of the relevant featured article reviews indicates that the title of the article was not an issue. This could mean everyone thought the article name was in line with all relevant guidelines. But it could also mean the fact that the name might be ambiguous did not occur to anybody. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I have to say is that there is indeed the obvious element of ambiguity in the article title, which was why the editor Elipongo made the article move in the first place. - oahiyeel talk 18:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Archive of discussions

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As oahiyeel has recently attempted to censor all past comments on this issue in his talkpages by labelling it an "eyesore"[4], I provide a link here for ease of reference[5]. Refer specifically to the section headlined "Moves involving Mass Rapid Transit articles"--Huaiwei (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be to you, but it is an eyesore to me. :) Thanks for providing the links to show your comments that bothers on non-good faith assumptions, and wanting to teach people on consensus and yet, as above, changed your stance to become adherence to policy in which you have also failed to acknowledge the ambiguity of the said articles as pointed out by other editors. - oahiyeel talk 04:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Adherence to policy includes consensus building, so I fail to see how that constitutes a "change of stance"! :D--Huaiwei (talk) 17:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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