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Oldham and Rochdale

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Quick question; given that Salford (hundred) roughly corresponds to modern day Greater Manchester - did it also include the Oldham and Rochdale areas? Thanks, Jhamez84 16:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Four months later... I see it did indeed! Jhamez84 01:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

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In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "GM Gazetteer" :
    • {{cite web|author=Anon|url=http://www.gmcro.co.uk/guides/gazette/gazframe.htm|date=2003-07-31|title=A select gazetteer of local government areas, Greater Manchester County|publisher=[[Greater Manchester County Records Office]]|accessdate=2007-07-09}}
    • {{cite web |url=http://www.gmcro.co.uk/guides/gazette/gazframe.htm |title=A select gazetteer of local government areas, Greater Manchester County|author=Anon|publisher=[[Greater Manchester County Records Office]]|accessdate=2008-02-21|date= 2003-07-31}}

DumZiBoT (talk) 21:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

map

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I've created a map here. If anyone would like any changes, additions, etc made to it, please let me know on my talk page. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I;m guessing that the lines on it separate out the different ancient parishes. In which case, might it be an idea to explicitly mention this in the description of the image. There may be a need, also, to mention the various detached parts that are what I presume are the unlabelled areas. That way, if its in the description, there's less chance of omitting mentioning them when it would be appropriate to do so in any articles in which the image is included. Do you have a source for the boundaries and the detached parts at all (if that is what they are)? Just out of interest, as I know that in some cases, not sure if it applied to this hundred, ancient parishes could be split across different hundreds (and different counties, in fact.)  DDStretch  (talk) 22:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. It looks nice, but... Personally, I don't like the shadow which makes it look like an island. I think it would be good to show the adjoining areas as in this image [1] which may or may not have been the source. It also uses arrows to show which parish the detached bits belong too. That is a bit inelegant but very clear. An alternative is to colour each parish a different colour (which means seven or eight ditinct colours so maybe not) or a letter or number in each detached bit to indicate its mother parish.Lozleader (talk) 13:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That map was the source. I wasn't certain of the layout so didn't proceed beyond what I've done above, but if anyone can help me out I'll be happy to update it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Loz. It's a great addition, and map like this was needed quite some while ago, however, any chance of making this map more like the ones that are at Prestwich-cum-Oldham and Manchester (ancient parish), with coloured segments etc? That would be fantastic! --Jza84 |  Talk  13:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't have this page 'watched'. I'll get onto it and report back. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
New map, no key
Ok how does this look now? I decided against arrows as it's messy, so used colours to demonstrate connections. I still have to fill in the blanks (if anyone knows it would save me looking it up) and am undecided on how to include a key. What do you think of the colours, too strong/confusing/historically incorrect? Oh and Saddleworth is a tricky one, needs explaining separately. I don't want to include areas outside the hundred as it confuses things. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK: except maybe the colours of Eccles/Manchester and possibly Bury/Rochdale parishes are a bit too close? 23:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Well I noticed that Ashton and Middleton are the same colours which I'll rectify. Nearly all the other colours are 40 degrees apart in hue, so to make things more distinct I'd have to start changing saturation levels which I think may look worse. It may work better if I put Rochdale's colour on t'other side o'map. What do you think about a key? Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the colours and separated things a little. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So you have! Obviously the key will deal with Aspull being in Wigan parish. The only oddity now is the little exclave (currently assigned to Middleton) within Rochdale parish. By this I mean the right hand one of the two pink areas down at the bottom left of Rochdale's green vastness. It is not clear in the source map which parish it is in... maybe they couldn't work it out either! Seriously, I guess we need to figure which township it is, and then we should be set. Lozleader (talk) 12:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I'm surprised there are so few detached parts: Cheshire, for example, has so many of them that a simple map, even if done hundred by hundred, would sometimes be hard-pressed to show them all. In some cases (Bowden and Ashton upon Mersey are two cases in point) they are so intimately inter-mingled that only tithe maps of the local areas concerned hope to show the divisions. If this happens here, perhaps a note stating that the main parts of each parish are shown. In the case of the key, my solution has been to build the key in as an integral part of the map itself: it loses the ability to link within the key, but its benefit is that the map and the key cannot be separated (and the key cannot be sabotaged by vandals.) Diocese of Chester and Hundreds of Cheshire show this approach in action.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another point for the map is that Saddleworth isn't actually covered by it (it would adjoin Oldham to the east), so the name might need to be removed (it wasn't part of Salford hundred anyway). Also, Prestwich-cum-Oldham was a single parish, rather than two seperate entities. --Jza84 |  Talk  13:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Ok I removed Saddleworth from Rochdale, changed Prestwich-cum-Oldham to the same colours, and inserted text to each half of that parish - does it make sense? Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


What are you using as a source for the map? Reason I ask is that my source (Youngs, F. A. (1991), Guide to the local administrative units of England. (Volume 1: Northern England), London: Royal Historical Society, ISBN 0861931270, pages 190, 195) states that the ancient parish name was merely Prestwich, and that Oldham was a chapelry within Prestwich. A Chapelry was a semi-autonomous subunit of the ancient parish. Oldham itself only became a separate civil parish in 1866 when the ancient parish was divided up amongst other townships that became civil parishes in their own right. I would have thought that unless you are going to separately mark all the other chapelries (which might get confusing), it may best to just label the whole of the ancient parish as Prestwich and talk about the two main portions of it in the text, where Oldham can be mentioned.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Map source is in the image description :) I'm a good little Wikipedian :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I've taken a look (missed the link), and I think that, as a matter of course, one should label the areas with the ancient parish, regardless of the chapelry. So "Aspull" should be replaced with "Wigan", and the two regions of Prestwich/Prestwich-cum-Oldham should read "Prestwich" (as the source you use uses "Prestwich" in the text) below the map, and that is inline with the otehr reliable source I have (below). If you want to have the chapelries noted, you could put them in parentheses below the ancient parish name, and for Wigan, the key could indicate that it was primarily in a different hundred West Derby, I presume), and for the other two (Bury and Rochdale), that they had parts which were in different hundreds or wapentakes (in the case of Saddleworth). Does that make sense?  DDStretch  (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. I've changed those names, how does it look now? Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you still got the Oldham chapelry bit labelled as "Oldham" when it should be "Prestwich" (yes, two separate areas labelled with the ancient parish) since that is the name of the ancient parish and Oldham (civil) parish only came into being when the hundred system became defunct and was abolished in 1866. If you want to consistently label the chapelries on the map, you might like to have "(Oldham)" in smaller size below the "Prestwich", and you could adopt the same approach if there are any more you felt needed to be labelled on the map. For other chapelries, they could be mentioned in the text. An alternative might be to number the chapelries, and have that as part of the key, but you probably still should have the ancient parishes noted on the map.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, how about now? I think it's best to use prose to describe the changing names of the area, rather than squeeze it all in on a map. Perhaps someone at some point could create one of those fancy imagemaps, where you can click on an area of the map and it links to the article - that would link nicely to Prestwich-cum-Oldham. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) That looks much better to my eye. I assume the separate yellow area is a detached part of Bury ancient parish, and that all the separate pink bits are detached parts of Middleton ancient parish. Why are there two abutting areas of pink, then? Do these mark off a chapelry within Middleton, and if so, is there really a need to show its "internal" boundary within Middleton, given that other "internal" chapelry boundaries within their respective ancient parishes are not being shown, except where they are detached parts? Sorry for this, especially when the map is already looking good, and you have done good work here.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm a bit more rooting around on articles on wikipedia shows that there may be sources that disagree on the name of the above ancient parish: Prestwich or Prestwich cum Oldham. May be some more investigation of this is required. Since Prestwich-cum-Oldham exists, may be this can be easily resolved? Any idea when each name was first used? (This is a problem I am well acquainted with as it happens with ancient parishes in Cheshire: my solution wa sto go with the what I judged to be the more reliable and recent source, though I still have more work to do on that in Ancient parishes of Cheshire.)  DDStretch  (talk) 23:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

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I like the new map, but wouldn't it make more sense to have it in the Constituent areas section, and the ancient map in the infobox? Reason being, the ancient map gives a consistent look with the rest of Lancashire's hundreds, but also the new map nicely shows the constituent parishes, tying it in well with the prose. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  01:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not mithered either way, but I do find the historical map to be somewhat difficult to decipher. Lancashire, Yorkshire and Cheshire all use modern maps in the infobox. Even Cravenshire and Flintshire have no historical map. Parrot of Doom (talk) 02:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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