Talk:Sayre Area School District

Population

Hard to imagine population rose over 1/3 this millennium. I find no such support in footnote 11. 2601:14A:C102:5F60:0:0:0:4 (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)RMO

Information removal

There is plenty of extra information on this page that needs to be removed. However it is ridiculous to delete it wholesale. I have restored this page. Delphinium1 (talk) 19:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

And I've put it back to the way it should be. This detail is appropriate for a Pennsylvania wiki, not Wikipedia. Graham87 09:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Graham87 You can't simply delete information on an article because it doesn't suit your interests. I never argued that the full form of the article has too much information, but I have deleted the majority of the excess info. I would like to reach a compromise with you. Delphinium1 (talk) 14:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

To quote from WP:NOT: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." The article as it stands already has a remarkable amount of information for "a small, rural public school district". Adding additional huge walls of text based on primary sources seems completely unnecessary. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The bit about the teacher's strike looks interesting and it got some local coverage. I personally wouldn't be opposed to adding that back in, along with anything else of general interest along those lines, but it's hard to pick through all the trivia to find the nuggets of gold. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 15:11, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah strikes seem to be pretty common in that state so they seem too run-of-the-mill to me. As I was going to say before the previous messages were added, the extra information in your revision is largely extremely out-of-date and requires constant maintenance to keep it up-to-date. It also doesn't say anything that can't apply to just about any school district across the state or country (e.g. many school districts have wellness policies, many school districts in Pennsylvania collect taxes, etc.) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and does not attempt to replace websites like that of the Pennsylvania Department of Education; most importantly, it is not an indiscriminate collection of information nor a news site. Also see my comments here; Delphinium, I'd be curious to know about your relationship (if any) with this school district. Graham87 15:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I live in the area but have no specific relationship. I was working to fix local PA school district pages without doing wholesale deletions. I saw no specific urgency until you began wholesale deletions. Teacher strikes are common in PA in part because there are 500 school districts. It is notable that a school had a strike. In my opinion, the nuggets of gold outweigh the value of having a streamlined article. I can work to streamline the article more, but not if you insist on battling my every edit. Delphinium1 (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. As you're not an established editor and have had your article about this subject redirected, I (and most other editors) would give your opinions about what is and is not notable very little weight here. Wikipedia is primarily written for a global audience. Graham87 15:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

So what do you suggest? Neuter every PA school district article to the point that the article is absolutely useless to people interested in learning about the district? Other people have commented here and see value in aspects of the article. I don't have the experience you do, but respectfully I ask that if you are going to delete information that you go through and keep the valuable and appropriate info. Delphinium1 (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

That is exactly what Graham87 did. You two simply have different opinions on which info is valuable/appropriate, and this talk page is where to hash such things out. Delphinium1, I might be willing to support restoring some of the deleted information, but I don't have time to sort through it all. Can you post here the secondary sources you used - I know I saw a few newspaper articles - so I can take a look at them? 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I see you've chosen to go to dispute resolution. I'm no longer willing to get in the middle of this. I withdraw my offer above. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:32, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I understand. Thank you for your offer anyway. Delphinium1 (talk) 16:36, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I guess I'm not entirely sure what you are asking for. There are many secondary sources listed on the page version I made. Here are a few examples, but I would look at the sources on the history page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160425102539/https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/news/sayre-school-board-votes-to-temporarily-close-litchfield-school-adopts-2011-12-budget-1.1144346

Unionville-Chadds Ford School District top school district in Pennsylvania - Pittsburgh Business Times (bizjournals.com)

Teachers in Two Bradford County Districts Plan to Strike | wnep.com Delphinium1 (talk) 16:34, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

It wasn't redirected. Concern was raised over the significance so I created an article to include the scope of the entire United States. This is because I am open to feedback and agreed that my original article would be better if expanded in scope. I made this in an effort to preserve some of the information that is on PA school district wiki pages in a more wiki-friendly format without having extraneous information on the district page itself. Delphinium1 (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Graham Thank you for adding the strike section back... respectfully, there are other references in the article related to the strike. Additionally, the strike was just one example of a "gold nugget" of information in the article. I'm willing to fix this article but am extremely frustrated that you won't let me. I hesitate to make any further edits and further an edit war. Can we please work together rather than in as adversaries? Delphinium1 (talk) 19:02, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) re Strikes in Pennsylvania article: Ah yes, I notice now; I redirected it to the US article. I've decided to put the sentences about the strike back in the history section, after a message on my talk page by Nightenbelle. This prompted me to check out Category:Education labor disputes in the United States. In that category I found an entry for 2007 Quincy teacher strike ... which was a redirect that led to an article that didn't even mention any strike, not because of any deletion by established users, but because of an edit by 24.218.131.66 on 13 February 2018 (their other edits on that date prove that they were only there to create mischief). To fix the redirect, I restored the strike information there, so I thought ... why not here? So it's back in the history section, even if it's not the longest/most notable strike by Pennsylvania standards as seen in this section. Re other gold nuggets: you can let me know what you think they are, but I'd be very wary of putting much more info back without precedents for it being included in other similar articles outside Pennsylvania. I also can't imagine what more there would be to say about the 2016 strike that would really be appropriate in an article like this. Graham87 19:13, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I've added a little more. Graham87 19:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Graham Absolutely ridiculous you won't even let me edit the article myself and I have to "let me know what you think they are" for anything of importance. I've edited wiki in good faith for a number of years off and on (older than my account history as prior to 2017 I had a different account I forgot about that heavily edited the Colorado Coal Field War pages.) Unless you are willing to actually go through the sections you have deleted, I fail to see the value in your forced "ownership" of PA school district articles. I was willing to pick out the valuable information, and did so by already deleting half of the section in question (with plans to further edit as my time permits). My understanding is that wiki standards recommend you revert back after major edits if there is a complaint, as Nightenbelle recommended. Delphinium1 (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Delphinium1: The thing I'm most concerned about is the reintroduction of the long-term abuse by Raindrop73 back in to the article namespace. I've been able to eliminate it in hundreds of other articles without an issue. I have an idea: could you maybe copy something like this revision (or some place you want to start working on) into your sandbox, where you can work on it at your leisure, and when you're happy with it, you can reincorporate it back into this page? Or you can re-add any nuggets that you find to the article piece by piece . Ideally they'd be things that set this school district apart from the thousands of school districts in the US, and it'd be even better if they had at least regional/state coverage. I have checked through the article and can't find anything that really stands out at me in a positive way ... the bit about Sam Moore is hyperlocal politics that absolutely does *not* belong here. Also re the Colorado article: checking through the page history stats using this tool, perhaps you were Jalsing88. Graham87 19:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, you were able to eliminate it in other articles without issue because nobody was also in the process of repairing those articles. I work slowly, but I was undergoing a much larger effort to rehome much of the valuable information contained in the article to a more appropriate page. I began this with teacher strikes, which was a significant undertaking. I hesitate to do any more edits on wiki as you are now watching my every move and extremely critical that any of this information is of any importance, despite other wikipedia editors arguing that it is in fact relevant. Delphinium1 (talk) 20:19, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Just checking - I'm not coming back 'til the drama board dramatics have fizzled out, but once they do, I'd be willing to take that look at secondary sources, if it's still wanted. I'll be around in IP form as usual, probably hovering near the Teahouse. 97.126.106.3 (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Frontier Central School District is an example of a good article within wiki project schools. Notice it contains much of the information you have insisted upon deletion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. user:graham87 Delphinium1 (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

... seems quiet... maybe I'll poke my head out again...

Delphinium1, Graham87 wouldn't have gotten that ping. Also you sort of implied that you'd prefer Graham87 to stay away from you; pinging them to engage in further discussion will do the opposite of that, if they choose to respond at all (if I've misunderstod your wishes, I apologize).

I fully support you using that GA as a template for revising this article. I'd recommend you go slowly, bit by bit, though; massive reverts make everyone dizzy. Also, resist wall-o-trivia-itis.

I went through your version of the article and picked out some (to me) interesting bits, things which are specifically about this district and its history. Whether they're worthy of inclusion... I'm not sure. I don't see anything like them in that GA, and GA/FAs are my standards. I'll leave it up to you and anyone else who may wander in.

Sayre Area School District officials did not apply for the federal Race to the Top grant which would have provided nearly one half million dollars in additional federal funding to improve student academic achievement.[124] Participation required the administration, the school board and the local teachers' union to sign an agreement to prioritize improving student academic success. In Pennsylvania, 120 public school districts and 56 charter schools agreed to participate.[125] Pennsylvania was not approved for the grant. The failure of districts to agree to participate was cited as one reason that Pennsylvania was not approved.[126][127][128]

In 2012, the Pittsburgh Business Times also reported an Overachievers Ranking for 498 Pennsylvania school districts. Sayre Area School District ranked 107th. In 2011, the district was 21st.[26]

Sayre Area School District was audited in 2013. Findings included Improper Reporting of Retirement Wages and Service Years which resulted in overpayment of pension for the superintendent.[100]

There was also some, ah, uncomplimentary stuff about a certain business manager. I think this is in a dangerous area as far as WP:BLPs are concerned and should, in particular, not be restored.

Just my 20 cents. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Related discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools#Overly aggressive deleting of school-related articles?. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 13:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, @Delphinium1, there are some guidelines for these types of articles at WP:WikiProject Schools/Article advice. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I will put some time into this next week. Delphinium1 (talk) 15:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Delphinium1: Yeah, I didn't get the ping because you didn't sign the comment at the time. Honestly, I'm actually kinda glad I didn't notice this conversation until now ... yesterday was a crazy day.

Anyway, with due respect to all parties involved in the Frontier Central School District page, an article being considered good or featured doesn't mean its suitability can't be re-evaluated later (doubly so for good articles as they only have one reviewer); notoriously, this was once a featured article (see its talk page). Regarding Frontier Central School District, there are some sections that strike me as too detailed (the instruction and transport headings in particular), but I don't feel compelled to remove anything from it ... there just seems to be a lot more humanity in that page and it's obvious it wasn't just one of hundreds of copy-and-paste jobs. It's also in a far more urbanised area than Sayre Area School District, making information much easier to come by. Re the excerpts above:

1. Re the "Race to the top grant", I guess you didn't catch that what it's basically saying is "Sayre Area School District was one of about 380 school districts in Pennsylvania not to apply for the grant (as there were about 500 school districts in Pennsylvania when that was written), and the entire state of Pennsylvania didn't get it anyway". A complete non-event in my view.
2. Re overachievers ranking: it's very much out-of-date and fluctuates wildly, making it meaningless. I'm really not a fan of rankings unless there's third-party independent analysis of what makes a particular position in a rank so special.
3. Re 2013 audit: Again, very old and a trivial non-event; minor problems like this probably happen all the time and additions like this are undue weight. We do not need random mistakes like this to live in infamy forever on Wikipedia.

For an example of something I *do* think is notable enough to mention prominently in a school district article, see Abington School District v. Schempp. Graham87 13:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

user:graham87 Thanks for your input. The audit stuff is actually pretty significant and not undue weight... there are many more audit flaws over the years that could be added... which would constitute undue weight. I agree with your points 1 and 2. I urge you to stop considering urban/rural and small/large when determining the significance of information. Would you do the same for an article about a rare disease (say narcolepsy) as a common disease (say heartburn)? In terms of raw numbers, Pennsylvania has more rural residents than any other state so calling everything a "small insignificant area" has a huge impact and a large swath of the population. I also urge you to consider the reader of the article, rather than a random person's perspective. I know wikipedia is for a global audience but, why would anyone outside of the US even access a PA school district article.

Again I think we are back to having a good discussion. I would really like to work out guidelines but I'm not experienced enough on Wiki to how to best coordinate with the education group and whatnot. I'm going to try to make a post there now and I will ping you, out of respect. Feel free to contribute or not, but if you see a better way of going about my goals let me know. Delphinium1 (talk) 17:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

@Delphinium1: Re the audit information, Wikipedia is not a newspaper and I'd still have serious concerns relating to the biographies of living persons policy related to including it, even if the guilty parties aren't named in the Wikipedia article, because of Wikipedia's prominence in search engines (see point 5 at Talk:Star Wars Kid/FAQ). The most serious reason for not including it though is that Wikipedia summarises secondary sources and the only source cited previously was the audit itself, which is obviously primary. If hypothetically there was sustained news coverage in several reliable media channels about how "outrageous" it was that the superintendent obtained a higher pension than normal, or this revellation started a chain of events that caused a major shake-up of the school district, then it would be worthy of mention ... but I can't find any evidence of these things having occurred.

I didn't know that Pennsylvania had the highest absolute rural population in the entire US, though it makes sense given the Amish country and this table. I do however stand by my comparison though; rural areas are simply bound to have fewer reliable sources that Wikipedia can use than urban locations, simply due to their lower populations. Re diseases, there is actually plenty of guidance on this topic which mostly does not take into account the rarity of conditions but rather the availability of information. Wikipedia is not the only Internet platform and there can always be new ones. There are many reasons for non-US people to end up at this article, such as how I got here, the random page feature, and project and link maintenance. I'm going to notify people at the WikiProject Schools talk page about this discussion, to see if we can get any more perspectives here. Graham87 07:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)