Talk:Smokin out the Window

Capitalisation

Shouldn't this be called "Smoking out the Window" rather than "Smoking Out the Window"? "Out" is a preposition of less than four letters so should not be capitalised per MOS:TITLECAPS? 37.228.241.234 (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 3 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below; there is no consensus to add an apostrophe in the current discussion, but that can be revisited if necessary. Dekimasuよ! 13:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

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Smokin Out the Window → Smokin out the Window – correct capitalisation of short preposition 37.228.241.133 (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 22:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• Capitalization changes often require discussion. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

  @GeoffreyT2000 A discussion had been opened on March 23rd (above) with no objections, and this seems like a pretty non-controversial application of MOS:TITLECAPS (unless you're arguing that the title is about the window itself being smoked out). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 17:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per sources, which seem to all use uppercase 'Out'. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  What do the sources have to do with it? No mention of what sources have to say in MOS:TITLECAPS 37.228.241.133 (talk) 11:00, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  When all sources go one way that's the way Wikipedia goes. That's what common sense exceptions are for, exceptions called for at the top of every guideline. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not aware of any examples of this, could you provide one? 37.228.241.133 (talk) 11:12, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Sure, here are two: Spiderman: Far From Home, Four Past Midnight. A box at the top of every guideline reads: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Randy Kryn (talk) 11:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  The first of those is actually Spider-Man: Far From Home. Aside from the capitalization of "From", the capitalization of "Man" also seems a bit unusual, although MOS:TITLECAPS says that the capitalization rule for hyphenation "is often ignored in titles of works". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:59, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:TITLECAPS.37.228.241.133 (talk) 11:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Also see MOS:TITLECAPS: "Potential exceptions: Apply our five-letter rule (above) for prepositions except when a significant majority of current, reliable sources that are independent of the subject consistently capitalize, in the title of a specific work, a word that is frequently not a preposition, as in 'Like' and 'Past'." Randy Kryn (talk) 11:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Also consider the "Smokin": Here in Billboard, here in Vulture, and here in Revolt, the title uses "Smokin' " rather than "Smokin", which seems more like ordinary English formatting (boldface added for emphasis). I didn't check a lot of sources, but quickly spotted those three. Here in Under the Radar, the title uses "Smoking". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:12, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Also, the apostrophe is used here by NME and here by Uproxx. Here by American Songwriter and here by EW, the title uses "Smoking". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per sources. Sources use the uppercase 'Out' and also do not use an apostrophe when writing Smokin. Silk Sonic themselves spell it “Smokin Out The Window” in their cd single cover. It should stay. Zvig47 (talk) 17:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Re "Sources ... do not use an apostrophe when writing Smokin", actually several sources do, as noted immediately above, and there are probably more. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Re Like I said, Silk Sonic themselves do. Zvig47 (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Generally we are supposed to prefer independent reliable sources over self-published, affiliated and promotional ones. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:TITLECAPS and the Potential exceptions of the "five-letter rule". MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I don't understand your opinion, MarioSoulTruthFan. "MOS:TITLECAPS and its 'five-letter rule'" would seem to support the suggested move, since out is a preposition of fewer than five letters and should thus presumably be lowercased. Deor (talk) 17:39, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  What I mean is the Potential exceptions of the "five-letter rule". Fixed. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 17:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:CT. "out" is a preposition in this title, so it should be lowercased. The exception mentioned in MOS:CT refers to words that are "frequently not a preposition, as in 'Like' and 'Past'". This does not apply to "out", which is frequently a preposition (usually as part of "out of"). Darkday (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Check "out" in the search box to read if it's ""frequently not a preposition": out&tf=U2VydmljZT1EaWN0aW9uYXJ5QW5zd2VyVjIgU2NlbmFyaW89RGVmaW5pdGlvblNjZW5hcmlvIFBvc2l0aW9uPU5PUCBSYW5raW5nRGF0YT1UcnVlIEZvcmNlUGxhY2U9RmFsc2UgUGFpcnM9RGljdGlvbmFyeVdvcmQ6b3V0O3NjbjpEZWZpbml0aW9uU2NlbmFyaW87cDpSZXF1ZXJ5O2RwOlRPUDtmOlRydWU7IHw%3d&hs=2ClIklJINPbnFiT5%2b5qGbUlGWQNU31A7I5r3oUfRfSU%3d&FORM=DCNMOP . Randy Kryn (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Clearly the intent of that section is that it applies only if reliable sources are treating the word as something other than a preposition. That doesn't matter because in this case because it's clearly being used as a preposition. If it were "Smokin the Window Out" (adverb) or "The Smokin Window Was Out" (adjective) you might have an argument. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:13, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment When looking at the sources for this article, grouping by publisher, it seems "Smokin Out The Window" is the more commonly used form:
  • "Smokin Out The Window"
    • ET Canada (Corus)
    • Bruno Mars on YouTube
    • Silk Sonic on Twitter
    • Multifaceted Media Ent.
    • Billboard (Penske) (they've used different formats in different places, but this is by far the most common)
    • AGATA
    • Top40.nl (Endeavour)
    • RIAS
    • The Official South African Chart
    • Music Canada
    • Bruno Mars Store
  • "Smokin' Out The Window:
    • radiodate.it (Airplay Control)
    • AllAccess
  • "Smokin Out the Window"
    • Complex
    • Apple Music
    • Pitchfork (Condé Nast)
    • Billboard (Penske)
    • Popsugar (Group Nine)
    • Consequence
    • australian-charts.com/ultratop.be/danishcharts.dk/lescharts.com/dutchcharts.nl/charts.nz/norwegiancharts.com/portuguesecharts.com/swedishcharts.com/swisscharts.com (Hung Medien)
  • "Smokin' Out the Window"
    • Billboard/Rolling Stone (Penske)
• --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:49, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  I suggest not counting the self-published and promotional sources and the charts and music vending sites, as those do not generally exercise any meaningfully independent editorial control. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  No matter how many are counted they all uppercase 'Out'. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:23, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  Well, I think you can immediately disregard those that also capitalize "the". If they do that, they have no credibility in capitalization matters at all, no? Deor (talk) 17:35, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  Most references on the page lowercase 'the'. None lowercase 'Out'. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  It's only most if you count the Hung Medien sources separately. If you consolidate those, uppercase "The" wins. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 18:43, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support. It is a short preposition, and under our formatting rules it should not be capitalized, regardless of whether sources capitalize it or not. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:36, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  But all sources, that's common sense exception territory. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  This is a simple formatting issue, and exceptions should not be based on the formatting that other sources choose to use. Exceptions should only be when the title is unusual in some way, such as Star Trek Into Darkness, where there really should be a colon in there, making it "Star Trek: Into Darkness", but the producers decided to leave out the colon for their own reasons. It looks like a lot of the sources capitalize "The" in this title too. Does that mean we should in the article title? Rreagan007 (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  No, since most references on the page lowercase 'the'. None lowercase 'Out'. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

  Again, it's only most because of the huge number of references to 10 different domains used by a single source (Hung Medien). That's not representative of common usage. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 15:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support via more common title in sources. — Mcguy15 (talk, contribs) 18:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

  No, it's not, just the opposite. Which sources? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:CT and per MOS:CAPS generally (it is not consistently capitalized as "Out" in independent sources).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:22, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

  Can you link a couple of those sources? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The word "out" is a preposition in this case, so the proposal makes sense. To leave the title as it is would be akin to saying this title means that someone is, for example, placing a window in a barbecue smoker, which makes no sense. Steel1943 (talk) 18:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Smokin out the Window/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cherrell410 (talk · contribs) 18:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   A number of sources are using - instead of –, as well as a number of sources are using DMY instead of MDY. Cherrell410 (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Various discussion son the talk page about the title of the article

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   @MarioSoulTruthFan: Could we insert a picture of either Mars or .Paak?

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

   Leaving my suggestions for improvement below:

• Infobox: Is the chronology for Mars and .Paak's singles really necessary? Cherrell410 (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Lead: Aftermath Entertainment and Atlantic Records released the song as part of their debut studio album. This could possibly make the reader think that AE and AR are a band (if they aren't familiar with RLs), and that SS didn't actually release the song.
• Production and release: first para - quick question, all of that is included in the cd booklet? i don't have it so i wouldn't know...

Yes. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Production and release: second para - AE and AR released... --> the band released... under AE and AR, or something like at (as per above)
• Composition: put the refs immediately after the adjective

I fixed it in another way. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Music video: "It also won video of the year, ..." The article just talked about it winning video of the year at a different award show, could we transition this so that the name of the second awards show is first, or add a transition that distinctly depicts it as a completely different award show, if that makes any sense

 Done

Cherrell410 (talk) 23:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I still have some doubts regarding the last amendment. Please take a look and let me know if I need to fix something else. Thank you for the quick review, as well. Cheers, MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Funk

As I don't want to edit war, per WP:Sticktosource we shouldn't take something like a genre interpretation as from weak phrasing if the source. Funk is used so arbitrarily in describing music as "funky" or whatever, but that doesn't mean the person would categorize as that genre. For this reason, I don't think it should be applied here. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas (talk) 06:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I can see your point of view. I shall remove it. Cheers, MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 07:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)