Talk:Solstice Coil

Notability discussion

Why the notability tag? seems to me the band passes notability guideline on more than several points — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.249.77 (talk • contribs) 07:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

It would be great if you could check WP:NBAND and WP:N and explain why you think this article passes the notability standards. I see an article about a band that has two self-published releases, with no singles ever charting nationally, and something about producing a YouTube video. The references are almost entirely non-independent (i.e. facebook, concert poster, twitter, youtube). Then we have references that are nothing but dead links. The remaining references are a blog album review, and a news article that appears (I don't speak Hebrew) to be more about Dream Theatre than Solstice Coil. As it stands, I see nothing here that establishes notability for this band. Steamroller Assault (talk) 16:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing. It seems to me you were somewhat hot on the non-notability tag, since in most of your claims I feel as if you've misread the reference, or read it out of context. First of all I've removed those references that succumbed to link rot

Now for WP:NBAND, by section:

Criteria for musicians and ensembles:

1. Please see http://solstice.co.il/press

It includes multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself. Prominent ones are the Ynet articles (Ynet is the largest news website in Israel. I don't see anywhere that if someone can't read the language than the source doesn't stand).

4. The "concert poster" you mentioned is the official web site of the Belgian Prog Resiste music festival, where the band performed on its Belgian tour. It is entirely independent from the band. Mentioned here http://www.dprp.net/reviews/200774.php#progresiste and in the live video published in the reference (again, not by the band)

10. Now we get to the issue: "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable". The Dream Theater parody is notable. So notable that it reached Dream Theater itself, and was published by Dream Theater member John Petrucci. The reference is from *his* facebook and twitter page, not the band's page, and again is entirely independent of them. Not only that, but the video was played in front of a crowd of thousands in the Dream Theater show in Tel Aviv, by initiative of Dream Theater themselves. The reference from Ynet comes to support that the video was indeed played there on their own accord. As we speak the video amassed more than 22,000 views.

12. The band has been the focus of several specials on national radio shows. Again, see http://solstice.co.il/press

Also - http://www.106fm.co.il/#page-/search?query=solstice%20coil

As for your other concerns - first the band published one album on an American label, not Independence. It says so in the article. Secondly, the link to Babyblaue establishes that the album was indeed selected as album of the month.

To me, a band that meets several articles of notability, has been in existence for more than ten years with dozens of praising reviews in international magazines in more than four languages, performed nationally and abroad and gained the attention and affection of a famous and established band in the genre is indeed notable. Don't you agree?

--Vyath (talk) 10:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a great start. Now, let's get some of this information off the talk page and into the article where it will actually do some good and establish notability! Based on your points, here's what needs to be done:

• 1. Use http://solstice.co.il/press as a guide and start citing! Add notable information to the article that is mentioned in those sources, and then provide a reference to the original press piece. I would start with the most prominent, multinational coverage the band has received, then move to the most prominent examples of national media in order to establish notability. The best thing to do is cite articles that describe why the subject is notable. Sources can be in any language. But since they aren't on this Wikipedia page, it wouldn't even matter if it was 12 page English-language article in the Jerusalem Post.
• 4. The concert poster, of course, counts as "trivial coverage" (it simply announces an event and gives dates), and does not serve to establish notability. Better would be to include a reliable source that covers the concert and explains how the band had a significant role in it. Then, find a source (or the same one) which describes how Solstice coil's involvement in the concert is important. Note that point 4 in WP:BAND specifically states: non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources, not simply a mention of the event. Actually, it is required to be about a national or international tour. Was the prog festival a tour? Or did the band appear in the festival as part of their own tour? The distinction is important.
• 10. The parody piece does not establish notability under this point. The key is that the work is a piece of music for a notable piece of media. The parody doesn't qualify as music in the spirit of this criterion. Since this is an article about a band, it being required to be a piece of music (i.e. a song) would goes straight to establishing notability for said band. I also don't believe that a screening before one concert counts as a work of media that is notable in the spirit of this criterion. However, if the parody was discussed in detail in multiple reliable sources, it would be very helpful to cite those sources for the benefit of the article. And facebook and twitter are not reliable sources because (for a couple of things) they have no editorial oversight and are promotional. If the article is not to improve beyond the state it currently stands (i.e. other points of notability are not established), then it would be best to simply redirect this page to Dream Theater with a brief mention of Solstice Coil on that page.
• Further to point 10, the ynet article is trivial coverage. It devotes a single sentence to Solstice Coil. In addition, number of youtube hits is not a measure of notability. But if it were, 22,000 doesn't seem like much when we're talking about a site that has videos with millions of hits.
• 12. See point 1. In the article, discuss the specific featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network, and cite the source. It's doing no good to this article sitting on the band's website. Also, be mindful of what featured subject and substantial broadcast segment means here as a separate criterion in WP:BAND. We're talking something like Behind the Music or The Ongoing History of New Music, not an encapsulated television interview that is part of a larger television or radio show.
• ("other concerns"). I took a look at Melodic Revolution Records, and they appear to be a small indie label (i.e. not one single hit on GNews). Are you trying to address point #5 of WP:BAND? Anyhow, it requires at least two releases, so even if it were "one of the more important indie labels", it wouldn't qualify.
• ("other concerns", continued). I'm not sure what part of WP:BAND is satisfied by being picked album of the month by this particular music blog.

In conclusion: this article currently does not establish notability for the band. The good news is that all that has to be done is to satisfy one criterion. I'd go with #1, citing multiple reliable sources that give non-trivial coverage. Please note that I placed a maintenance tag on the page rather than a deletion nomination in the hopes that it could spur improvement on the article so that notability could be established. Cheers, Steamroller Assault (talk) 16:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the very thought out and detailed response. Other wikipeds tend to be quite combatant while you were nice and helpful.

• 1. Alright, I will attempt at making the necessary edits
• 4. How about this? It's an interview piece with the lead singer that talks about the tour http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3308984,00.html

I'll tell you why I feel this is notable - the progressive genre is niche and far from mainstream globally. The fact that an Israeli band gets invited and plays in a European prog festival is worthy of mention, as to my knowledge it's rather uncommon.

• 5. I still contend that. First, The parody, while spoofing the way Dream Theater chose to promote themselves contains nothing but original music. So on two accounts the band created something unique here - the parody AND its soundtrack. Secondly - you claimed that facebook and twitter "has no editorial oversight and are promotional" - and that's true. However, I do want to stress that the reference wasn't to something that was "said" on facebook and twitter, but rather the fact that some famous\important figure in that aspect took notice and published the band's original work, and that is of significance. That is a fact - John Petrucci indeed published the band's video on his official media outlets. It's not that he "said" something about it, but rather that he, on his own free will chose to publish it.

"I also don't believe that a screening before one concert counts as a work of media that is notable in the spirit of this criterion" - I beg to differ. I'm not sure how familiar are you with Israel: Dream Theater is the only progressive metal band ever to perform in Israel, which is tiny country that doesn't receive too many international shows per year. The fact that Dream Theater performed here twice, let alone chose to screen a video produced by a local band on their own accord is not trivial at all. In that sense, it's not "just one concert". It's the only concert. I have several independent reliable sources, such as the ynet article that review the DT show and mention their choice of screening it. These reference come to support that it did indeed occur. I contend that the screening itself is non trivial, out of the ordinary and notable. True, it does not appear in the guidelines is because it's too specific. (WP:Parodies_of_local_bands_Screened_by_famous_global_bands? :), but it's one of those cases where those knowledgeable in the filed must use judgment.

• 12. Again you're talking about Israel here. I can't stress how small-scale things are. There are no such things as Behind the Music or The Ongoing History of New Music. So being featured on about 4-5 shows in the major radio stations (and there are less then 5 of those) is a substantial broadcast segment.

Eventually, and hopefully really soon the article will be edited to proper wikipedia standards. However I urge you to think of this band's achievements in the context of starting out from a small country in the middle east, and reaching both out locally and internationally. Few Israeli bands ever did that. It's evidently notable on the Hebrew wikipedia. Why not the English one?

--Vyath (talk) 11:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You make a great point about Hebrew Wikipedia. I took a look at the page, and funnily enough, it's also suffering from notability issues. Hopefully the article can be improved over there as well. I see that you've started referencing, and I'd like to make a couple of suggestions. Rather than liking to a .jpeg hosted on the band's website, it's much preferred to link directly to the news piece itself. In this way, editors can see which publications wrote about the band (a good tool to judge influence), and are taken to a much more easy-to-read reference. In addition, rather than saying something like "the band has been written about in the news", it is much more valuable to be specific and write something like "Michael Azerrad, writing for Rolling Stone stated: 'Solistice Coil's music has had a profound impact on the state of Israel, where it is now required listening for all citizens of voting age.'"

As for many of your points, we need sources that back the claims you're making. It cannot simply be said that it is an important event to have an Israeli band play in a European prog festival. Someone, in a reliable source, needs to have said it beforehand. Then we get to report that statement here and reference it. Wikipedia articles need to avoid original research. The ynet article you provided is a step in the right direction, although it's more for establishing notability through #1, since #4 seems to make a sticking point about it being a tour.

As for the Dream Theater stuff. Once again, we need to cite a reliable reference that speaks as to why the event was important. The opinion of individual Wikipedia editors is simply not enough. But since you make a strenuous argument for the fact, perhaps someone somewhere else wrote such a statement and you can cite it. Also, let's not fool ourselves. #10 is for bands that have done things like written the theme song for a successful television show, a la The Rembrandts. It's not meant to address individual screenings of short films. However, I may take it to the folks over at WP:BAND to see if consensus can be reached on that. Regardless, you don't need to satisfy #10 if you've completed #1. But for inclusion in the article, the fact that it happened (which no sane person would ever dispute) is far less worthy for inclusion than a discussion as to why it was so important (which some sane people could).

As for point #12, don't work on satisfying point #12. Use the media sources to satisfy point #1. Steamroller Assault (talk) 20:21, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Fictional references

--Shimon McLuvin (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)To me this band seems notable enough to appear on Wikipedia. The Dream Theater recognition alone makes it notable in my opinion. Also, if you can't read Hebrew - why don't you use Google Translate? It's not word for word, but it is sufficient for understanding the basic tone.--Shimon McLuvin (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

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