Talk:Scouts South Africa

Subject matter experts

We need somebody with more knowledge in Cubs and in Rovers to fill out those specific sections. I've done what I can with the Scouts section, although I do feel that the advancement badges need a bit more info. Our Advancement system is a unique in the world of Scouting (As far as I can tell) Jediwannabe 07:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the Rover Section. I'll put a bit more work into the sections history when I have time. ZARover (talk) 13:57, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

RevIt & New Policies

Hi, somebody needs to comb through this article and make sure all the terminology is in line with the new policies. For example, Group Scouter should be Scout Group Leader. 'Parent Committees' don't officially exist anymore either. ZARover (talk) 14:00, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Cub programme

I've removed the following text from the article onto the talk page:

Could a Pack Scouter (or somebody who knows more about Cubs in SA) please fill in what the Cub program aims for

From what I know, the Cub programme aims to instill and teach in the cubs all the basic skills needed for the time that a cub becomes a scout. Cubbing, sometimes taken lightly, is a vital part of the movement as it is here that the foundations are laid, so that more progressive and intuitive learning can take place in the scouting environment. (Potzen)

Zaian 21:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The Cub section needs to overhauled to match the new system that was recently implemented. I'm not knowledgeable on the topic though I'm afraid.ZARover (talk) 14:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Article improvement

With a longer lead, more refs, and some tweaks, this could easily be a [[WP:GA|Good Article] or even A-class article. If anyone bites, let me know and I'll give the rating a re-look. Rlevse 18:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's move the talk here. For FA, do the lead summary, more footnotes, see if some lists can be converted to prose, and get rid of the 1-2 sentences paragraphs by combining short ones or expanding them; then have me take another look.Rlevse 11:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done a little bit more to the lead, added a few footnotes. I'll look into the lists and get rid of those short paragraphs. One thing I'm thinking about is possibly moving the history and Scout program sections into seperate daughter articles, do you think it will improve the quality of the article? I'll let you know when I think it's ready to be re-evaluated. Jediwannabe 08:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

South African Scout Association Peer Review output

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

• The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.
• Consider adding more links to the article; per WP:MOS-L and WP:BTW, create links to relevant articles.
• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
• Per WP:WIAFA, Images should have concise captions.
• Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.
• Per WP:MOSNUM, please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, "the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.
• Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) maybe too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per WP:SS.
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • While additive terms like “also”, “in addition”, “additionally”, “moreover”, and “furthermore” may sometimes be useful, overusing them when they aren't necessary can instead detract from the brilliancy of the article. This article has 16 additive terms, a bit too much.
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• This article needs footnotes, preferably in the cite.php format recommended by WP:WIAFA. Simply, enclose inline citations, with WP:CITE or WP:CITE/ES information, with <ref>THE FOOTNOTE</ref>. At the bottom of the article, in a section named “References” or “Footnotes”, add <div class="references-small"><references/></div>.
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rlevse 21:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i've basically rewritten large portions of the article, resorted it and reduced the size of the table of contents, and lots else. Any other suggestions? Jediwannabe 07:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

References

New PR to review for GA nom

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Consider adding more links to the article; per WP:MOS-L and WP:BTW, create links to relevant articles.
• Per WP:WIAFA, Images should have concise captions.
• Per WP:MOSNUM, please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space inbetween. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]
• Please provide citations for all of the {{fact}}s.
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rlevse 20:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Rlevse 20:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

I don't have time to write all my comments down, but here are my main thoughts on this. This is a very interesting and well written article. I almost passed it despite my concerns. But here are my concerns:

• 1) It needs more references/citations---particularly in the history section. There were a lot of places that I felt you needed citations. I'll try to go through the article later to note those places.
• 2) This article cries out for pictures. The pictures you absolutely have to find are: a-The beeds referenced of Kind Dinizulu, b- the uniform designed by Powell for the police c- the uniform that is now used that is based on b. This article HAS to have pictures!
• 3) I know this is written in British or possibly S.A. English, but is Learnt the correct spelling? I didn't want to correct it, because I suspect that it's just a linquistical variation, but be forwarned that it looks and sounds very akward for American English speakers.

I'll add more notes later on, but I wanted to hit the main points really quick. Again, this is by far the best article that I've read in my short time as a GA reviewer.Balloonman 23:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

As promised a more in depth review:

• Add another paragraph in the introduction, namely on the Springbok award. This is the designation people work for and I think it needs a place of prominence in the article.
• The article needs more wikilinks.
• The rise of Afrikaner nationalism in the early 20th century and the popularity of scouting in the early 20th century seemed at odds... I was wondering if Afrikaner nationalism was really early 20th century or mid-20th century?
• "Baden-Powell successfully defended the town for 217 days." He did it by himself? He led the forces that did it? He was part of the unit that did it?
• "a soldier in Southern Africa" do we know where? Or was this before the modern nations were established?
• Mention why the interest in HIV, if you don't know anything about Africa or HIV this might look weird.
• Define Chief Scout and Patron.
• Moved the section on chief scouter as you use the term before defining it.
• Could we blockquote or indent the Promise and Law?
• is first rate citizen used by the scouts? If so, then it should be in quotes and cited. If not, then it is a subjective term with no meaning. Either way, something needs to be done with it.
• "who no longer has time to run a Patrol," Being a troop leader is less demanding than being a patrol leader?
• "Springbok badge" mentioned for the first time in Scouting section without explaining what it is. If you add it to the intro section, then that's fine here. But if you don't add it, then it needs to be explained here. Springbok badge meant nothing to me at this point.
• Advancement levels, do we need to bold or italicize them so they stand out?
• Is there a link/page where the National Anthem can be found?
• What do you mean by "Scout grounds?" Does this mean in the wild/widerness?
• Explorer / Air Explorer / Sea Explorer---does one earn one or all three? Does one get to choose or is it based upon the troop?
• Is explorer the first rank where defined leadership is required?
• What is a Springbok? I'm guessing that it is some type of deer? That might be something to add to the article.
• Are there any interest badges required for Springbok? Or are they only required for the Explorer level?
• Rover Program---I would consider expanding this section as it is something that distinquishes SA scouting.
• The international link section was the weakest section of the article... before becoming an FA I would elaborate on this section.
• The influence in SA section I expected to see two things. First, discussion of scoutings role/involvement with Apartheid. Since they were integrated before Apartheid ended, did scouting have a larger role on this subject? Second, discussion on HIV/Aids. It is apparent that HIV/Aids is a subject of concern in SA, so what role do the Scouts play? HAve they been acknowledged for their efforts?
• Pictures... really look for those pictures, they aren't required, but it would be really nice to have... particularly the pictures of the modern uniform and the police uniform... I'd love that.
• Citations... again not absolutely required, but I added notations where *I* would like to see additional documentation... feel free to delete them if you feel like the facts are 'common knowledge' among active scouts outside of SA.

Again, this article is essentially ready for GA... There are a few places that need to be cleaned up/elaborated, but this really is a good interesting well written article. I know, this looks like a lot, but really, it isn't... these are easy fixes that you are free to disagree with.Balloonman 03:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've implemented most of your suggestions as best I could. Found some nice pictures to add, just waiting for the webmasters to get back to me with permission to use them. Jediwannabe 08:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Going to move this to pass (forgot to sign)Balloonman 20:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting Peer review

I'd like to see this article reach FA status, but first I'd like to get some comments and suggestions from members of the Scouting WikiProject for tips on how the article can be improved to increase it's chances of achieving FA. Thanks in advance. -- YiS, Jediwannabe 07:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Consider adding more links to the article; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and Wikipedia:Build the web, create links to relevant articles.^[?]
• See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 30 kilometres, use 30 kilometres, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 30&nbsp;kilometres.^[?]
• Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honour (B) (American: honor), metre (B) (American: meter), defence (B) (American: defense), recognize (A) (British: recognise), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization), program (A) (British: programme), programme (B) (American: program ).
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • Avoid misplaced formality: “in order to/for” (-> to/for), “thereupon”, “notwithstanding”, etc.
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through these suggestions for further ideas. Several of these have been pointed out above, too. They are simple straightforward (but laborious) recommendations, and should definitely be solved before FA status is seriously proposed. Success. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Boy Scout Cross for Valor

Has anyone heard or the Boy Scout Siver Cross for Gallantry? I can't find any information on it. My grandfather won one and I have the medal and citation but cannot find any further information. (South Africa in 1929 for rescuing a person from drowning at sea) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.124.247.200 (talk) 02:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

I have not, I am duplicating this to the South African Scout Association talk page to see if they can help. Chris 02:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

See [1] for a recipient of this award in 1909. Zaian 05:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Meteorology and atmospheric sciences" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.

1. The "Cub Promise" and "Cub Law" need to have inline citations afterwards. Do the same for "Scout and Rover Promise" and "Scout and Rover Law". it was already on the last one, I've added it to the others, at the end of each
2. "The Association is divided into seven Areas, namely Cape Eastern, Cape Western[1], Central, Gauteng[2], KwaZulu-Natal[3], Mpumalanga[4] and Northwest[5]." Reformat this statement so the actual words are linked instead of having external links formatted as numbers afterwards.
3. The "International links" section needs to be rewritten as it currently reads as a list and multiple brief paragraphs. See if you can merge some of these or add more information.

This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Worked all items. Let me know if you have more concerns. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass

I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. Superb job on addressing the above issues so quickly. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. I would recommend souring the "International Links" section with any available sources. It would also be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the inline citations and fix any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

External links modified

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Patrol Leader Training Unit

This section contains no citations, and as such is at risk of being deleted. I am very certain that records do exist for this entity, but they need to be cited for independent verification. There must, at the very least, be minutes of meetings and other records, probably held in the archives of Scouts South Africa or the Boy Scouts' Association of South Africa, or even by individuals who hold them. Please note that in order to qualify as references for Wikipedia, they should be deposited in a repository open to public access. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 00:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I notice that someone added Doug Drysdale's name some time ago, and it got removed. It is, in fact, correct, but I cannot access records to prove it. Unfortunately, the same applies to the rest of this section: it has remained unreferenced for quite some time. If anyone wants to remove my last edit on the grounds that it is unreferenced, then the same applies to the rest of the section, and most if it should be removed. Of course, what I would prefer is that those holding the records add the references missing. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 00:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this section needs citations, or it should be substantially trimmed to a summary that can be cited from public sources, such as the organisation's history pages at [2], [3] and [4]. Zaian (talk) 08:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I've had a look back through the history of this section, and it would seem to have been written (at least initially) by Dudley Forde himself; although he no longer appears to contribute under his own name, if at all. We can verify the existence of PLTU from the Scouts South Africa web site, as well as Dudley Forde as its founder; but little else. I am in touch with people in Scouts South Africa who should be able to help, so let me try that angle before we take a lot of this section down. Michael J. Mullany (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

OK. Scouts South Africa has its own wiki site with a history section - Dudley Forde's contributions would fit well on that site. scoutwiki.scouts.org.za. Zaian (talk) 09:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Scouts South Africa

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delisted. Real4jyy (talk) 11:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

This 2006 listing contains significant uncited material and large amounts of excessive detail (many sections on the minutiae of scouting could probably be cut), meaning that GA criteria 2b) and 3b) are not met. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the two reasons given: Article has 64 cites and IMO meets the norm for GA's in that area. Regarding excessive detail, IMO I didn't see any. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi North8000, the GA criteria require inline citations for everything bar WP:BLUESKY and plot summaries; as it stands in the article, entire subsections such as "Patrol Leaders Training Unit", "International links", and "Air Scouting" are not cited.Nearly all of what is cited is verified only by non-independent sources, meaning that there is significant risk of WP:UNDUE information. If that is the norm for GA's in the area, I shall have to bring all of them to GAR. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi North8000, have you had a chance to consider the above? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. My overall opinion, is that it meets the GA norms in both of those areas. On your first point, I think that you inadvertently rewrote the criteria instead of quoting it. Using vague guess numbers,IMHO probably 20% of material is likely to be challenged, and at the other extreme maybe 5% is sky-is-blue. So while the criteria set the 20% as the minimum, in your re-write substituting sky-is-blue you raised the 20% minimum to 95% minimum. In the second area, boring encyclopedic information is seldom covered by independent sources and so an encyclopedic article needs to substantially use those. IMHO you are applying an unintended overly broad application of WP:UNDUE which is intended more to cover areas where opinions differ. IMO "independent" comes more into play regarding the 1-2 GNG sources for wp:notability. I'm not overly worried about GA status but you asked and I answered. :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

North8000, GA criterion 2b) links to Wikipedia:Content that could reasonably be challenged, which you might find helpful. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks and thanks for your work. A reasonably good essay but does not equate to your "anything but sky-is-blue". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• The article could use more comprehensive sourcing to meet current standards. The extensive use of primary/non-independent sources is a separate question, and its interaction with OR is per WP:PST a bit of an art. At a first read, I would say this article uses them for great detail, but without much interpretation. CMD (talk) 07:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Delist: I agree with the problems regarding criterion 2b. Good articles should be properly sourced inline and the expression "content that could reasonably be challenged" does not mean that there is an actual disagreement in the reliable sources about the fact in question. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@GAR coordinators: any comments? if not, can you please make a closing decision? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Delist as failing to meet 2b for insufficient citations. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.