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Requested move

[edit]

Closing the RfC on the proposed move. It is important to note that this was not a proposed change to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) in general or WP:DIACRITIC in particular. The general rule that articles should be named according to spelling in reliable sources in still in place. However, in these particular articles, where reliable sources disagree, the consensus is to move. -- Selket Talk 22:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin comment: premature, yet fresh, time stamp inserted to (hopefully) accommodate the bot. List continues below. Favonian (talk) 17:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kauffner, sorry but same problem with other recent RM proposals and comments: WP:IRS. What is your evidence that the sources you have selected are "reliable sources" for this RM? ESPN is not a reliable source for any "foreign" names. Is the Washington Post a reliable source per WP:IRS for this RM? Note that Washington Post does not spell Václav Havel's name fully in his obituary, so on what basis should en.wp defer to Washington Post as a reliable source on Czech names? In ictu ocuili (talk) 03:40, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just because a source doesn't say what you want it to say does not make it unreliable. The idea here is to determine the subject's English-language name. Whether a name has diacritics in some other language is not relevant. This is implied by policy and by multiple guidelines: WP:UE, WP:USEENGLISH, and WP:DIACRITICS. I am sure you are familiar with them already. Kauffner (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Kauffner,
The guideline you are missing above in WP:IRS which indicates that your understanding of "reliable sources" is incorrect. "reliable = reliable for context" not "majority". However your answer prompts 4 questions:
  • Question 1. Why do you consider eliteprospects.com an unreliable source? Why don't you list eliteprospects.com in your list? (I won't jump to the assumption that it is because it has the full French names in English and you are personally opposed to French names in English, but I would like to know the reason)
  • Question 2. Each of the articles gives a source giving the French name in English sources. Question: Why should we disregard the sources in the article footnotes?
  • Question 3. WP:DIACRITICS has "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich" - which again would not appear in ESPN. Are you agreed with using diacritics in Category:Irish Roman Catholic bishops or e.g. Category:Gaelic poets?
  • Question 4. WP:MOSPN says "Foreign proper names written in languages which use the Latin alphabet often include characters with diacritics, ligatures and others that are not commonly used in present-day English. Wikipedia normally retains these special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters. For example, the name of the article on Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős is spelt with the double acute accent.." You're familiar with this since you tried to remove it here. And having failed in that you also recently nominated, unsuccessfully, the example in MOSPN, Talk:Paul Erdős, to be moved to the incorrect German short umlaut "Paul Erdös" (sic). Therefore you are very familiar with this WP guideline. My question is this - can you cite 1x non-stagename, non-monarch, non-change-of-nationality/residence common or garden BLP that is titled on en.wp with a diacritic-stripped form? There are up to 800,000 BLPs on en.wp, you should be able to find 1x that agrees with your reading of WP guidelines. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:51, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As regards
  • Wikipedia:Article titles, please note: "Ambiguous[3] or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources."
  • Wikipedia:Article titles/WP:UE, please note: "e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen" . I ask you - would any of these appear as "Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen" in a sports website like ESPN? We both know the answer is "no" so that is a rhetorical question, but to me indicates that you do either not understand WP:UE or are opposed to it for some reason.
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)/WP:USEENGLISH please note: "The policy on using common names and on foreign names does not prohibit the use of modified letters, if they are used in the common name as verified by reliable sources. In general, the sources in the article, a Google book search of books published in the last quarter-century or thereabouts, and a selection of other encyclopaedias, should all be examples of reliable sources" - all of these French surnames would be recorded correctly in "books" or "a selection of other encyclopaedias," but you are selectively elevating diacritic-disabled websites (while ignoring diacritic-enabled ones like eliteprospects.com) in order to do the opposite of what the guidance here says.
  • Back to "reliable sources" is defined by WP:IRS you say "a source doesn't say what you want it to say does not make it unreliable." but please read WP:IRS where being a diacritic-disabled website like ESPN opposed to a book or Google Scholar does make it unreliable.
It would be helpful if you could address the 4 questions, since they relate to every foreign name related RM you participate in. Best regards. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I didn't check all these players but many have no diacritics in multiple English sources, which is what we use in this English wikipedia. Either they would need to be listed one by one so we could examine each and every one for the English spelling preference or this needs to be completely rejected out of hand. Even a quick check shows Stephane Roy at the hall of fame, and likewise with Stephane Charbonneau hall of fame. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck, which players did you check? And how/what did you check? The very first one has ref Delco Times 30 Jan 2012 "Goalie Chris Treat led the way to back-to-back shutouts against Ridley, coached by Povey’s mentor, Stéphane Charbonneau." - and then see my comment that if eliteprospects.com had been used then eliteprospects.com shows all these French-Canadian players with French-Canadian names in an English source. Can you find one of these French-Canadians who is never spelled correctly in English sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Anthony. I believe the answer to that question in practice is that a source is reliable for this purpose when a source demonstrates that it can represent foreign names correctly, but then in the next paragraph doesn't. An example would be editor Daniel Purdy Goethe Yearbook Vol.17 p368 - 2010 "... the relationship between Goethe and “Annette,” as he called Käthchen Schönkopf, the titular muse of his poems from this period." This example shows that Purdy is a reliable source per second paragraph of WP:IRS, in that Purdy can use umlauts for Käthchen Schönkopf but doesn't for Goethe, so "Goethe" really is Goethe, not just a typographical limitation such as we often see from sports websites. Anyone editing BLPs does this WP:IRS check repeatedly as a matter of course on every BLP to establish WP:IRS reliability for purpose. I hope this a helpful example? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:24, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC) I'd like to add that several of these players were unknown to me, and having the diacritic in place really helps you on how to pronounce a name. There is a big difference between Pierre Guite and Pierre Guité, just to mention one example of many. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No evidence that the diatric versions are used more often in reliable sources. And, yes, ESPN, NHL, Newsday, etc. are reliable sources for how a given athlete's name is commonly spelled in English. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:40, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Born2cycle, fortunately this isn't a vote so I hope a closing admin will disregard the above comment based on it being contrary to WP:IRS. Per WP:IRS www.hockeydb.com is not a reliable source for spelling French names because it doesn't have accents, but eliteprospects.com is a reliable source for spelling French names because it does give these French Canadians French names. Whether there are 5x www.hockeydb.com type sites and only 1x eliteprospects.com is irrelevant. See WP:IRS. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So source A is reliable because it agrees with you. Source B disagrees, but it's not reliable, because it disagrees. Nice little tautology you've got going there. Powers T 13:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No Powers, eliteprospects.com is "reliable" because WP:IRS says so - it is "reliable in the context" of whether Stephane Charbonneau is a Stéphane or not. hockeydb.com is unreliable because it can't spell Prime Minister of Canada Jean Chrétien correctly. It is not en.wikipedia's job to follow blindly the worst sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your logic is still circular. You assume that your preferred spelling of Chretien's name is correct, and thus find that any source that agrees with you is therefore reliable. It works the other way around -- the "correct" spelling is one found in reliable sources, rather than reliable sources being the ones with the "correct" spelling. Powers T 18:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Powers Jean Chrétien's name is "Jean Chrétien" - there is no logic, circular or otherwise, Jean Chrétien's name is "Jean Chrétien". If it isn't do a RM and try and move it to a "English common name". Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean "if it isn't"? Powers T 17:23, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Powers, I mean if you do not consider that Jean Chrétien's name is "Jean Chrétien" and consider that his name is "Jean Chretien" then by all means initiate a RM to remove the accent from his name. The argument and sources issue is exactly the same as these French Canadians here. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:12, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's an incorrect assumption. Persons' names are rendered differently depending on language (e.g., Mao Zedong). Sources often differ on how that name is rendered in a new language, so we have to look to see what spelling predominates, and under what spelling a majority of English-speakers will expect to find the subject. Powers T 16:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Huh? Is this a separate discussion from the other one? If so, support per discussion there. --BDD (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it's separate because there is a numerical limit for multiple nominations. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 04:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As mentioned in the nomination, this move request is in accordance with the longstanding "compromise" on diacritics for hockey topics which was recently brought to my attention, which was established at WP:HOCKEY some time ago and is currently enshrined on that page. It's disappointing to see opposition to this move, because that implies that there is little prospect for applying general principles rather than endlessly debating every single diacritics move on an individual basis for the foreseeable future. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 04:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would sadly agree with this comment - WP:HOCKEY along with WP:TENNIS has the most problematic recent history of accepting foreign names as they are, and yet WP:HOCKEY have come to a workable compromise which allows living persons their full names. Then to see the same tired 3 or 4 "votes" for using weblish spellings is disappointing. However MOSPN still says:

Wikipedia normally retains these special characters, except where there is a well-established English spelling that replaces them with English standard letters

In ictu oculi (talk) 08:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's too bad that there isn't a "spell them in their native language" rule for American politicians. Then we could take the diacritics off the names of English speakers that don't actually have them. Kauffner (talk) 23:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Kauffner Again, the same problem there too - you evidently do not share the same understanding of WP:IRS as those who create and edit BLPs. If you consider a provincial US newspaper website which strips the accent from Spanish prime minister José María Aznar a more reliable source on how to spell hispanic politician John Márquez than his own letterhead and signature indicates that you do not understand "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context." But anyway, please answer the 4 questions above, on 1. eliteprospects.com, 2. sources in these articles, 3. WP:DIACRITICS example Tomás Ó Fiaich, 4. provide 1x en.wp BLP which supports your reading of WP guidelines. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
PS - this is relevant to the John Márquez not here, but seeing as how the BLP states he is a qualified Spanish instructor and a professional English-Spanish interpreter, it seems clear that he is bilingual. Even if he wasn't your "spell their names in their native language" (i.e. English) comment for hispanic Americans is something you may wish to write by letter to John Márquez and tell him directly rather than on the Talk page of Stéphane Charbonneau. You may even then receive a nice signed reply with a acento agudo on the letterhead á as P.T. Aufrette linked. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:30, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Except that Stephane Charbonneau only has 2 refs and both spell French names: Delco Times 30 Jan 2012 "Goalie Chris Treat led the way to back-to-back shutouts against Ridley, coached by Povey’s mentor, Stéphane Charbonneau." In ictu oculi (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm speaking in general principles here; Charbonneau is not the only subject under discussion. Especially when it comes to surnames, I think you'll find that most English speakers know these names in the form they appear on jerseys and in newspapers, and that's without the diacritics. Powers T 18:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Powers, but there is no criteria WP:Most English speakers know these names in the form they appear on jerseys and in newspapers and WP:IRS tells us to use "the best" source not the majority: "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context. e.g. Vancouver Sun can't spell Stéphane Dion but isn't "the best" source so still have BLP Stéphane Dion at French spelling because he is a politician and outside WP:HOCKEY. Yet the Delco Times can spell Stéphane Charbonneau, and is "the best" source, but we have Stephane Charbonneau because Wikipedia is based on Hockey jerseys? You (in my view rightly) have brought up WP:MOS "consistent with related articles" in relation to snow tire at WT:AT, so what consistency is there between a Canadian politician the Vancouver Sun can't spell having a "é" added, and a Canadian hockey coach the Delco Times can spell having a "é" removed? Ice Hockey fans are generally culturally multitolerant and love French speaking Canadians and enjoy hearing and seeing French names, so why can't we reflect the hockey fans' love of French Canadians by following WP:HOCKEY's own guideline except where their use is likewise customary (specifically, in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League and the Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey)." I hope you will consider WP:HOCKEY, WP:IRS "the best" WP:USEENGLISH "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich" WP:MOS "consistent with related articles", and above all the love of Hockey fans for all things French, and review your opposition to French names above. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As a member of WP:HOCKEY, I am opposed to that guideline, and that is reflected in my opinion given here. To say that the Vancouver Sun "can't spell" is wrong; they simply spell a name with non-English origins differently than you do in English. That's not a crime, and you can't discount their opinion just because you disagree with it. Powers T 16:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lt Powers, to say "a name with non-English origins" of French Canadians in French Canada is a bit odd. Anyway Vancouver Sun can't spell French president "Francois (sic) Hollande" correctly either. No it isn't a "crime" (why would you think being an unreliable source for spelling French names is a crime?) but being an unreliable source for spelling French names doesn't make an unreliable source for spelling French names the "best such source." In any case the sources in these articles do have French spellings - because eliteprospects.com has French spellings. So why are we having this conversation...? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The full sentence reads: "All North American hockey pages should have player names without diacritics, except where their use is likewise customary (specifically, in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League and the Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey)." likewise WP:USEENGLISH gives the following example of diacritic not diacritic-stripped names: "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich." repeat WP:USEENGLISH: "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich." this also applies to Irish sportspeople, hence Pádraig Carney not "English name Padraig Carney", Seán Cleary not "English name Sean Cleary", Éamonn Mongey not "English name Eamonn Mongey" -- or indeed Dutch tennis players, Matwé Middelkoop not "English name Matwe Middelkoop" In ictu oculi (talk) 16:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with a reminder to the closer to check guidelines used to oppose if they actually say in context what they are presented as here. Agathoclea (talk) 22:39, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Closer also needs to check guidelines and policy used to support this mass move and that they apply to each and every one of these articles, not just some of them. I'm sure they always do this anyway but since you brought it up we wouldn't want any closer to be one-sided. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:57, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck, for example? Can you identify one of the part-cited arguments used to oppose above which does not include the example of an en.wp article with a diacritic title in the following text?
  1. WP:IRS has "the best such sources." not "the majority of sources"
  2. WP:AT has "German for German politicians"
  3. WP:UE has "Søren Kierkegaard"
  4. WP:USEENGLISH aka WP:DIACRITICS has "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich"
  5. WP:MOSPN has "English Wikipedia normally retains these special characters... Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős is spelt with the double acute accent"
  6. WP:HOCKEY has "All player pages should have diacritics applied (where required, according to the languages of the player in question)."
Additionally, not directly relevant to title, but related:
  1. WP:OPENPARA has "François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (October 26, 1916 – January 8, 1996) not your own lede style e.g. "Sophie Lefèvre (born February 23, 1981 in Toulouse) and known professionally as Sophie Lefevre"
So in all of these WP:IRS, WP:AT, WP:UE, WP:USEENGLISH, WP:DIACRITICS, WP:MOSPN, WP:HOCKEY,WP:OPENPARA where is the WP guideline that supports "Stephane Charbonneau" when the sources in the article have Stéphane? And other French and French Canadians are all at Stéphane? Or can you give an example, 1 example, other than stagename, of an en.wp French or French Canadian BLP article title where French accents have been removed? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Simply, what WP guideline gives the example of removing diacritics from a non-stagename BLP title?, because every oppose argument so far cites guidelines which when you click through to them actually give examples with accents on. ? Please indicate the WP guideline for removal of diacritics? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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