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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Stockman (Australia); Stockman (disambiguation) → Stockman. No evidence that this topic is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Stockman"; Suggested new name is appropriate per WP:D as we are disambiguating from other uses of "Stockman". Born2cycle (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stockman → Stockman (Australia) — The article now at Stockman is almost exclusively about the (cattle) stockman in Australia, who is a cowman but not a grazier. In the United States a stockman often is a grazier. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 15:38, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment –
I'm afraid Stockman (Australia) does not fit the MOS for article titles. An epithet in brackets is used to disambiguate two articles with the same title, so we could only do it that way if there were two types of stockman and we wanted to show that this was the Australian one. The way to do it would be to call the article something like Australian stockman.
We need to decide first what this article is intended to be about. Is it about all people who look after cattle, or only such people in Australia? In other words, is the Australian slant just how the material has turned out so far, or deliberate? If the former, then we should merge with Cowman (profession) (and any other articles about the same subject). If the latter, then, yes, I agree, simply stockman on its own is misleading, and Australian stockman would be better.
We need to remember that WP articles are about things, not words, so we should not be to worried by the word "stockman". Richard New Forest (talk) 21:11, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Australian stockman would work. In the United States a stockman usually is a cowman: a ranch manager or owner, not a cowhand. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 00:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Australian stockman would seem to be a solution as cowman is not a term used in ANZ, at all. We don't want or need many of these ag articles being pushed into North. hemisphere articles and banded under other names.Cgoodwin (talk) 01:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about Stockman (cowhand)? For what it's worth, Cowhand now redirects to Cowboy, which is very US-centric. A cowhand in the UK may work in a dairy, not on a ranch; this cowhand would not be a cowboy. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 01:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I strongly oppose the merge and support keeping Australian? Stockman separate from any other articles as stockmen have a strong cultural context, and because of the way in which population is distributed in Australia, affects it quite differently to the US and Europe, so there is a good case to have a separate article. Cowboys have totally different meanings in ANZ and cowmen is not used.Cgoodwin (talk) 05:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cgoodwin, do you support or oppose the requested move? 69.3.72.9 (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose any merge or move. This Australian Stockman article should be completely separate from any other articles. Australian stockman sounds fine! Cgoodwin (talk) 01:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not wanting to be pedantic or anything, but I take it that you're opposing a merge with anything else, but supporting a move to Australian stockman? (Also, you seem to have two "opposes" at the moment.) Richard New Forest (talk) 09:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(I moved the paragraphs to consolidate this "vote". 69.3.72.249 (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  • Support (nominator) because a stockman in Australia is an employee but a stockman in the United States is an employer (farm or ranch owner or foreman). In both countries "stockman" and "cowman" are near synonyms, cowman being specific for cattle. In the UK a stockman historically was an employer (farm owner) but now is an employee. In the US and UK both "stockman" and "cowman" are used; in Australia "cowman" is not (?) used. So the question seems to be: does "stockman" have a primary topic? If yes, then is the primary topic "stockman in Australia" or "stockman in the US"? I say no primary topic, let Stockman be a disambiguation page and on it list Stockman (Australia), Cowman (profession), Rancher, Dairy farmer, Cowhand (which probably should not redirect to Cowboy), etc. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 04:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose unless the Australian editors are OK with the change. I see no problem with WP:PRIMARY here. Relative rank (employer versus employee) has nothing to do with it. In AU, the person is a "stockman" and that appears to be THE word for the job. In the USA, "stockman" is a generic term, interchangeable with several other, more specific words. We don't really use "cowman" much at all, that's mostly a UK term (see my comments below). I also was re-looking at the etymology section of cowboy, and "cowhand" is a word that originated in the USA in the 1850s, used originally in the stockyards, so if it's used today elsewhere, it came from the US. Montanabw(talk) 05:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In British usage, "cowman" usually means an employee who cares for and milks dairy cattle. "Stockman" here is commonly used in the context of livestock husbandry skills: "he's a good stockman and his animals always look healthy". However, it can also be an employee who looks after just cattle or livestock generally: "he's the stockman for Starveacre Farm". Very similar in both cases to the use of "shepherd", but that's just sheep. "Hand" is not normally used in Britain in this sense except sometimes on boats, as in "all hands on deck". Richard New Forest (talk) 09:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Employer vs employee has everything to do with it, else the article is about a word. We all agree that a stockman in Australia is not the same as a stockman in the United States, so disambiguation is needed here. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And disambiguation already exists at Stockman (disambiguation). No need to do anything more complicated than what's here. Montanabw(talk) 15:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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First off, I'm OK with "Stockman" being primary to the Australian version with a disambig to everything else. I'll back what CG wants to do, though and if AU Stockman is OK, then whatever, but I don't see a need to change things. Further, "Cowman" is not really much of an American term, and thus no more even less a universal term than is "Stockman." And on everything else here, garsh almighty, pardners, let's get some REAL Amurikin westerners to call out the posse, round up them moo cows, and straighten out the lingo! (that "Amurikin" being me! LOL!) ---So in the United States, "Stockman" is most commonly used as an alternative term for rancher. "Rancher" usually means someone who raises beef cattle, sheep or, sometimes, horses and exotics. "Stockmen" but not "rancher" might include dairy farmers, particularly in the west, but people who raise anything smaller (goats, pigs), usually are lumped into the term "farmer." (Actually, raising dairy cattle is also classified as "farming," not "ranching") The term "cowman" exists in the US, but it is not common, only occasionally used in the west when discussing beef cattle operations, (ranchers might use it when being self-deprecating; "We cowmen have to stick together" -- "rancher" indicates slightly higher status) The term "cowman" may be used in the dairy industry, though "dairyman" is probably used more. (The more I think about it, I don't know if I've ever heard the word "cowman" uttered out loud by a real human being other than in the film Oklahoma!) I'll let Richard and Cg make the call if "cowhand" is a term used in the UK and Au, because I have no clue on that, but out here in the American west, it is exclusively synonymous with "cowboy" (As in the song, "I'm just an old cowhand from the Rio Grande"...) I won't be bent out of shape if cowhand's redirect is changed, or if cowhand becomes a disambiguation to cowboy, cowman, stockman, etc... And yes, Cowboy is US Centric because it's about the American concept -- cattle herders in other nations have different names, and there are several different articles about them (and if not, there ought to be). Montanabw(talk) 03:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No cowhands in OZ as far as I know, and certainly not in beef cattle grazing, where stockmen work sheep cattle and other animals. I think most OZ stockmen would be insulted by the term, LOL.Cgoodwin (talk) 06:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cgoodwin, are you saying that in Australia beef cattle are not cows, and that cows are specifically dairy cattle or female cattle? 69.3.72.9 (talk) 15:35, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, the article now at Stockman is about the Australian cattle stockman? Should the page name be Australian cattle stockman or Cattle stockman (Australia) or something else? Or should its topic be expanded to the Australian stockman more generally, including the sheep stockman? In that case should the page name be Australian stockman? 69.3.72.9 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

69.3.72.9, you are now failing to assume good faith on the part of Cg, who is a very experienced editor, and you are becoming tenditious and argumentative. Your knowledge of wikipedia disambiguation policies is also that of an experienced user, so why don't you get a user name or log on under your existing identity? Let others weigh in here. Montanabw(talk) 02:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep calm, guys... Richard New Forest (talk) 09:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it is decided to rename this article, with the 'stockman' title being used for the disambiguation page, then I think that Australian stockman would be a suitable name. The suggested title of 'Australian cattle stockman' would not be suitable because stockmen in Australia care for a number of different species of animals, including sheep and water buffalo (in the Northern Territory), and camels, etc., as well as cattle. Figaro (talk) 14:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My take is that we don't say "American cowboy", we just say "cowboy." It's a WP:PRIMARY term. Likewise, I see no problem with Stockman also being treated as Primary. In fact, I think it's kind of USA-centric not to. It's sort of like London being the capital of the UK, sure there are others, but that's what disambiguation pages are for. This whole discussion is really rather a waste of everyone's time. Only one person, an anon IP at that, seems to want this change, everyone else is willing to compromise if needed, but no one really supports it. This was an itch no one needed to scratch. Montanabw(talk) 21:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the comments by Montanabw about leaving this page with the title of Stockman, and the disambiguation page with the title of Stockman (disambiguation). The stockman is much more than just a mere employee in Australia — the stockman is an important part of the heritage and cultural history of our country. Figaro (talk) 09:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

And this was moved against consensus -- WHY?

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I see that even though most people opposed this move and maintained that the Primary use of the term Stockman is Australian, the page was moved anyway. Only ONE person (and an anon IP at that) actually wanted the move. If it's no skin off Cg's nose, (the primary editor) it's one thing, but just because there is use of the term elsewhere does not mean that the Australian use is not primary. (and as a person from the American west, if ANYONE should argue otherwise, it would be me...). We need to move this back, methinks. Montanabw(talk) 23:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From what I read, in fact there was consensus to rename the article, to make it clear that its topic is the stockman in Australia. Montanabw made a compelling argument for naming the article Stockman (Australia) rather than Australian stockman. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 23:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um, 69.3, that was not in fact what I argued. I argued that if the article was moved, here were a couple of ideas. However, I actually OPPOSED the move, as noted above. So did everyone else except for ONE proponent -- you. Montanabw(talk) 23:49, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not the primary topic for Stockman (fails basic google test decisively, except maybe at Australian Google). As I noted in the closing comments, that's why it was moved. Moving it back would be a blatant violation of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it is not understood what primary topic means. Please consider the definition ... "[when] one of these topics [to which a single term refers] is highly likely – much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters that term in the Search box." Now, when I type stockman in google and the first hit is David Stockman and there is not a single instance of the Australian usage on the first page, that means if I as the closer leave this article at Stockman then I'm violating WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Sorry, I'm not going to do that. Believe me, this was no mistake. I presume this answers WHY this was moved. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was NO consensus to rename the article, and if a change was to be made Australian stockman was agreed to be more appropriate. The move was opposed from the start. Anonymous 69 is the only one who wanted this move.Cgoodwin (talk) 00:05, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you're suggesting I (the closer) should have ignored Wikipedia disambiguation naming policy (i.e. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC)? If opposing consensus had acknowledged that keeping the article here was a policy violation, but gave good reason to do so nonetheless, I might see reason to go with consensus against policy. But nothing presented here met that hurdle; not even close. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:27, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong preference for the title of this article: I think in fact any of the three alternatives would do. However, I'm mystified as to how the discussion above could possibly be interpreted as consensus for the move that has been done.
Born2cycle, I'm afraid your explanation does not cover it at all. It seems to me that you have your own opinion about what should be done to the article. I think your opinion and arguments do make some sense, and they have as much validity as anyone else's – but the thing to do with an opinion is to contribute it to the discussion. Instead you have effectively imposed it over those of others. As a closer, your role is to assess the discussion objectively and execute its conclusion, and I can't see how you have discharged that role properly. Richard New Forest (talk) 09:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moving a page against consensus is actually against Wikipedia policy. The reason for discussion is to find out how many people are for a move, and how many people are against a move, and for the decision to be made in favour of the majority vote (not for the decision to be made in favour of the minority vote as has been done here - and that vote being by a sole anonymous user). Figaro (talk) 12:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is not majority vote. The majority of opinion here was against the move but consensus was for the move being consistent with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 14:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. The consensus of less than a handful of editors in one little discussion cannot go against the presumed consensus of the rest of the WP community which policy is supposed to reflect. That's why we have policy, so everybody doesn't have to weigh on in every little issue. Following policy is going with consensus, not against consensus. If you guys have an issue with following WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in article titling and move decisions, take it up at the talk page for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Born2Cycle, I just think that the primary topic is not necessarily the most popular topic. My opinion is that you may have confused the two here. But I have also raised my reasoning on other talk pages, so shall not repeat it here. Montanabw(talk) 20:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What you or I think primary topic is does not matter; what matters is what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says the consensus of the WP community thinks it is, and that's what I went by. And that includes google test determinations. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Born2cycle: you still have not explained why you did not summarise the discussion and go with the consensus, or declare no-consensus, or express your opinions in the discussion. If you did feel the consensus was against WP convention, the proper thing was to express that opinion in discussion and let someone else close it.
Given the very clear lack of consensus on this move, I suggest we start the process afresh.Richard New Forest (talk) 20:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I did explain: "if I as the closer leave this article at Stockman then I'm violating WP:PRIMARYTOPIC". I also pointed out, "Following policy is going with consensus, not against consensus.". We can't just follow the consensus of a handful of editors who happen to be participating in a particular discussion without regard to the consensus of the broad WP community, which is what ignoring policy essentially does. The consensus of this particular handful had nothing to do with my decision, except that I had no reason to believe that the consensus here was formed based on considerations for the broader consensus as manifested in policy.

Already at least one uninvolved admin much more experienced in closing WP:RM discussions than I has supported my decision. Perhaps that admin's explanation will be more compelling for you?

--Born2cycle (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both you and Parsecboy have explained why the article should be moved, and those are good arguments. You have not explained why you did not participate in the discussion and present those arguments, but instead bulldozed it. You may have had good reasons for closing as you did, but I'm afraid you did not do it gracefully, and the impression given is a lack of respect for the views of other editors. Richard New Forest (talk) 08:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was moved against consensus and it is disputed as to whether it is with or against policy. It should not have been moved. As I have been in several disputes with User:Born2cycle and his predecessor editor name, I am not going to revert the move, even though I don't think it should have been made. However, I'm leaving the primary disambiguation page at Stockman (disambiguation), as it shouldn't require multiple moves to fix the problem if it is determined (by whatever method seems appropriate, as consensus doesn't seem to have helped) to be appropriate to fix. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Arthur, if it helps, the individual who started all this, anon IP 69.3 (with a couple variations in IP address) was blocked for doing this all over wikipedia and for other related behavior. So, this appears to be a case where policy is ambiguous and consensus clearly favoring primary use of the article now at Stockman (Australia). So if you want to move it back, I don't see anyone else who will be concerned, and while I don't want to speak for Born2cycle, I think even that user is willing to defer to others on the matter. Montanabw(talk) 20:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jack/Jillaroo

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I have moved the mere mentions of station hand, jackaroo, and jillaroo to Station (Australian agriculture)#Personnel. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 16:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is wholly illogical as these are basically apprentice stockmen. Given the trouble you are causing on this article, I suggest you seek consensus from the people who have actually created the original article and have done all the work on it (AND who happen to be real Australians, and who happen to know their material, whereas you and I do not fall into that category). It is also clear from your edit history that you ultimately want to create new stubs where there is no need to do so. Montanabw(talk) 21:14, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I opened the discussion here hours ago (prior to Montanabw's first and second reverts, I might add). 69.3.72.249 (talk) 21:25, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some of us are not on wikipedia 24/7. And it appears from time stamps that you made the edit BEFORE posting here. Montanabw(talk) 21:39, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So is a jackaroo a trainee stockman, or a trainee station manager? Judging by every mention of "jackaroo" on Wikipedia except in the article Cowboy, a jackaroo is a trainee station manager. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 21:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A jackaroo is a trainee stockman — not a trainee station manager. Figaro (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And a reliable source for that? 69.3.72.249 (talk) 23:24, 29 September 2010(UTC)
First of all, my family owned a sheep station in New South Wales (Australia) and a buffalo station in the Northern Territory (Australia) — and I lived on the sheep station in New South Wales for a number of years, so I am personally aware of what a jackaroo is. Also, it is well known to Australians that a jackaroo is a trainee stockman, which makes me curious about which country you actually live in, 69.3.72.249, because of your question (if you were an Australian you would have known that a jackaroo was a trainee stockman). Anyway, here is a reliable source as requested [1]. Figaro (talk) 17:23, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the content editors here, when possible, need to be the people who actually know what they are talking about, and as we have several who do, the rest of us non-Aussies (Like me) need to just weigh in with copyediting and comments on when we think sourcing is in need of improvement or other general principles. For example, when I saw Figaro write "Buffalo" I was thinking "They have bison ranches in OZ? Huh? Then I edit, and notice the piped link! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 22:24, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the name of this page back to Stockman

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It is interesting that Cowboy has been allowed to remain the primary page - along with a Cowboy (disambiguation) page. I would like the title of this page to be returned to the original Stockman page (as voted by the majority of people) - along with the original Stcckman (disambiguation) page, otherwise it seems like there is a bias shown towards the American cowboy on Wikipedia - as opposed to the treatment metered out to the Australian stockman on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia - not just an American one. Figaro (talk) 13:14, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Cowboy and Stockman have primary topics associated with them are independent determinations. One has nothing to do with the other.

If you don't agree that the primary topic for Cowboy is the topic covered at Cowboy, then you can try to argue that at Talk:Cowboy.

If you think that stockman has a primary topic, per the criteria specified at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and so not the dab page but the primary topic article should be at Stockman, then present your argument here or at Talk:Stockman.

Or, perhaps you're arguing that worldwide bias considerations should trump WP:PRIMARYTOPIC considerations when articles are disambiguated. If so, that argument probably belongs at the talk pages for WP:TITLE or WP:D, because that's not something that's currently part of naming policy, as far as I know. Hope this helps. --Born2cycle (talk) 13:44, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that both the American Cowboy and the Australian Stockman are worthy of being primary topics (i.e. as Cowboy and Stockman). What I was referring to above is the fact that, while Cowboy is deemed important enough to be treated as a primary topic in its own right, its Australian equivalent of Stockman is now being treated as inferior and not worthy of being a primary topic. Figaro (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I, too, agree with Figaro, in that I think that Cowboy and Stockman both deserve to be primary topics, with primary titles.Cgoodwin (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wholeheartedly. As lead editor of Cowboy, I think it is suitable. I believe we also have charro and gaucho, and while I suspect google would tell us that these words are about a 60's sex symbol and a type of split skirt, we KNOW they are originally about cattle handlers! LOL!. Montanabw(talk) 04:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt there is any question about the primary topics for charro and gaucho. Charro does not even have a dab page (indicating no other notable subjects with that name - perhaps you're thinking of Charo?). While there are other uses of guacho, they are all unquestionably relatively obscure.
I'm afraid that primary topic is not determined by what anyone thinks is "deserved", but, rather, by the following specific criteria from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

Although a term may potentially refer to more than one topic, it is often the case that one of these topics is highly likely – much more likely than any other, and more likely than all the others combined – to be the subject being sought when a reader enters that term in the Search box. If there is such a topic, then it is called the primary topic for that term.

So if the Australian stockman is the primary topic for stockman, the argument must be made in those terms. That is, you have to show that when a reader enters stockman in the Search box, that it is much more likely that the subject the reader is seeking is the Australian stockman rather than any of the other subjects referred to as "stockman" combined. If you can persuade me this is the case (and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC suggests a variety of methods on how to do this), I will be happy to support moving this article back to Stockman.

But simply stating your opinion that it "deserves" primary topic because the American cowboy is the primary topic for Cowboy doesn't cut it. Whether any other subject (including the American cowboy) is the primary topic for some term has nothing to do with primary topic determination for this term. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Born2cycle. Ah, yes, Charo.  ;-) If one goes strictly by that criteria, I suspect Cowboy would direct to Dallas Cowboys. LOL! But seriously, I think my own argument is more along the lines of (from WP:PT): "There are no absolute rules for determining which topic is most likely to be sought by readers; decisions are made by discussion between editors." And possibly even "An exception may be appropriate if only one of the ambiguous topics is a vital article. In such a case, consensus may determine that the vital article should be treated as the primary topic regardless of whether it is the article most sought by users." Here, I think that while cowboys and stockmen may not quite met WP's "vital" criteria, the cultural significance of the Stockman to Australia is probably as important as the Cowboy is to the American West and needs to be respected as such. And of course as always, editing guidelines are "...best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Oh, and, as always, WP:IAR. Montanabw(talk) 05:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any experience with vital articles or how to get an article classified as such, but the process seems straightforward. I also don't have an opinion on whether the Australian stockman qualifies, but I'm skeptical since there are only a few dozen links to this article, but maybe that's not an important consideration in determining if an article is vital, though I would think it would be.

Still, if I felt as strongly about this as you apparently do, I would probably pursue that route.

As to WP:IAR, that's one one of my favorites, but you need a good reason to ignore a rule, and be persuasive about how ignoring the rules in the particular case improves Wikipedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose renaming. Stockman is susceptible to substantially more meanings than "cowboy". For example, there is no one in the encyclopedia with the surname, "Cowboy", while there are numerous people surnamed Stockman, some quite notable. All of the terms using "cowboy" are derived from the initial sense of a person who oversees cattle, a situation that is not apparent with Stockman. bd2412 T 18:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that our Australian friends would take exception to their stockmen being held no different than an American cowboy. The Australian tradition developed quite independently of the American one, though for similar purposes (dealing with livestock over vast areas). The equipment and livestock-handling techniques have marked differences. Just because the word is used elsewhere for somewhat related purposes doesn't mean that "Stockman" should not direct to its most important, most culturally-defined use. My own feeling is that to do otherwise is culturally insensitive to Australia and falling prey to the only-too-American view (FYI, I am an American) that whatever is the standard for the USA is what everyone else is too. JMHO. Montanabw(talk) 02:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Montanabw is correct in stating that a stockman is a totally different occupation to either an American or Australian cowboy. The duties and lifestyle of a stockman also had a long and strong cultural background. It is also culturally insensitive to Australians try to Americanise these differences.Cgoodwin (talk) 04:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Both Montanabw and Cgoodwin are correct that the Australian stockman is different to an American cowboy. What I have tried to comment on is the fact that the two are now being treated unequally - with cowboy being a primary topic (with a link which leads to a disambiguation page for everything else) - while the stockman 'disambiguation' page is now being treated as a primary topic. This shows bias towards an American page - and an anti-bias against an Australian page. The only person who wanted to move the original Stockman page to Stockman (Australia) was an anonymous user who was later blocked from editing Wikipedia because of treating other articles in the same way that he/she treated this article - with the renaming of the article being against consensus. By allowing the present situation to continue, the 'nod' has been given to the anonymous user's wishes and conduct - whilst 'thumbing the nose' at everyone else (i.e. totally ignoring and disregarding the views held by the people who 'voted' against the move). My vote is to return the disambiguation page to Stockman (disambiguation) as it was originally, and to return the Stockman (Australia) page to its original primary page of Stockman (with a link to the disambiguation page). Figaro (talk) 05:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First, when a dab page is at the plain name of a term, that doesn't mean the dab page is the primary topic; that means there is no primary topic for that term. A dab page is just a page, it's not a topic, and so can't be a primary topic.

Second, when an article is at a plain name, like Cowboy, that's doesn't mean that article is the primary topic. Articles are not topics, and so cannot be primary topics. That means the topic of that article is the primary use of that term.

Whether a particular use of a term is the primary topic for that term is determined entirely by looking at how that term is used in English, particularly among reliable sources. That determination has nothing to do with whether some other term has a primary topic. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is only one point here: Who is going to change the page names back to what they are supposed to be, and if no one here is going to do it, who do we kick this upstairs to get it done? I for one am tired of yakking about it. Montanabw(talk) 18:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good on you, Montanabw. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I, too, am getting thoroughly tired and weary with yakking about it. Figaro (talk) 08:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also of interest

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If anyone want to learn about how WP:PRIMARYTOPIC considerations affect other page locations, this is an informative thread at the talk page for WP:RM: Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Precedent.3F. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:58, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and guess what, our anon IP friend is the one who appears to have started it and is spending much of their time over there...sigh. Montanabw(talk) 22:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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