Talk:Streetcars in New Orleans

All NO streetcars in one article?

Would it make sense to create a single article covering all of the New Orleans streetcars (St. Charles, Canal St., Riverfront) in one article? --Jfruh 15:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I'm partial to the St. Charles line and think of the red streetcars as "upstarts," I think your idea for a general article does make sense—especially post-Katrina with the confusion of St. Charles streetcars operating on Canal Street. The St. Charles line is certainly important enough, historically, to merit its own article. On the other hand, it wouldn't make sense to have a separate article for each of the new lines. So maybe St. Charles Avenue Streetcar could forward to Streetcars in New Orleans#St. Charles Avenue Streetcar, which would be a major section of the new article. -- Muffuletta 16:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Another possibility would be to keep the seperate St. Charles Avenue Streetcar article and have a "Streetcars in New Orleans" (or similar title) article which gives a brief mention and points to main article for the St. Charles line. -- Infrogmation 17:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the article should eventually include historic lines (gotta mention Desire, no?) in addition ot the current/recent ones. While we're at it, some sort of general "Public Transit in New Orleans" article might be a good idea (including the Ferries, prosaic buses, and history like the big strike and jitneys in '29 etc). BTW, the Commons has a small collection at Commons:Category:Trams in New Orleans. -- Infrogmation 17:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Since there are currently no real articles on the other two lines, my instinct would be to move this article in its entirety to Streetcars in New Orleans and then add stub sections for the Riverfront and Canal St. lines. This would allow us to also eventually fill in the prewar history of NOLA streetcars (e.g., the Desire line and others) and keep them all in one place. --Jfruh 17:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi -- nobody seems to object to my idea, so I'm going to make the move. --Jfruh (talk) 19:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did it! I've never been to NOLA, so I hope some natives chime in and correct any errors, as most of my info comes from Wikipedia and other railfan sites. When writing, I tried to work on the assumption that the pre-Katrina situation is the permanent condition of things, and noted Katrina-related effects sort of in passing. Trying to be optimistic.

Stuff to add: expansion of info on the other two lines, updates on when the St. Charles Line will be back, any info at all on when the Riverfront Line will be back, updates on restoration efforts on the damaged cars, practical info (fares, transfers, schedules). --Jfruh (talk) 20:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like the St Charles line split off again (with a short summary and pointer to main article here. We have things that could be added like images of the 19th century New Orleans & Carrollton railway locomotives on Commons that there isn't really room for here. I suppose the Canal Street line could also warrent a seperate article, as there is a whole book about it. Other thoughts? -- Infrogmation (talk) 02:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

For comparison, the tram network in Melbourne, Australia (Trams_in_Melbourne) has articles on each route. If there is a whole book written on a single line, then I think it warrants a split. From a quick look over at one point said lines were more like a railway than a tramway, and railway lines are considered notable enough. Wongm (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added an expanded Riverfront text. It's my first Wikipedia contribution, so if I did anything wrong, please clue me in. --HGFriedman (talk) 17:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

From the NRHP perspective, a separate St. Charles article would make sense. KudzuVine (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

19th century propulsion

As we don't yet have anything on "ammonia engine" or "ammonia motor", this link has some interesting relevent info. -- Infrogmation 01:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

1871 illustration of an "Ammoniacal Gas Engine" streetcar in New Orleans: File:AmmoniacalGasEngineStreetcarARWaud.jpeg. -- Infrogmation (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Mule cars during WW2?

In the History section, I find: "During World War II, a few old mule drawn cars were returned to service on a few shorter lines as an energy saving measure."

I'm pretty knowledgeable about New Orleans streetcars, but I don't think I've ever heard this before. I cannot find any mention of it in Hennick & Charleton's book. Frankly, I doubt that it is true.

Can anyone say where this item came from, or verify its accuracy?

HGFriedman (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's been almost three weeks, and no one has responded. I have removed the quoted sentence. If anyone can verify the fact of mule cars being used in N. O. during WW II, I would be glad to have the item restored.

HGFriedman (talk) 22:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't notice this discussion earlier. I'm probably the one who added that to an early version of the article; I recall hearing that from an old neighbor who didn't seem to be in the habit of telling tall tales and it sounded plausible to me. However as at present we have no confirming evidence, I have no objection to removing the text. Thanks for your attention to improving the article! Red beans & ricely, -- Infrogmation (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the response. HGFriedman (talk) 22:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Tatra T6C5 car, that previously ran in New Orleans

I've just created an article on the Strausberg Railway in Germany, by translating the WP:DE article on the same subject. Unless I've got my translation hopelessly wrong, the Strausberg Railway owns a Czech built prototype Tatra T6C5 tramcar that it acquired from Siemens in 2005. And apparently this car was previously in New Orleans, presumably as part of an attempt to sell such cars to the RTA. Can anybody confirm this, or add any details?. -- Starbois (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• I remember seeing that car. I *think* it wound up being canibalized, with the platform and motor having a new carriage built around it as one of the new red line Canal Street cars, but don't have a confirming reference handy. -- Infrogmation (talk) 22:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, I didn't see this note until today. There was such a car in New Orleans, for demonstration purposes. For pictures (with captions), see Part 5 of my Canal St. article at http://www-faculty.cs.uiuc.edu/~friedman/canal/canal.htm. It was NOT canibalized in New Orleans, as far as I know. My understanding is that it was eventually returned to the builder country. -- HGFriedman (talk) 20:18, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merge

I oppose the suggested merge of Streetcars in New Orleans into New Orleans Regional Transit Authority proposed by 72.204.147.63 (talk · contribs). Reasons: Topics are related but not identical. Streetcars in New Orleans have a long history dating back some 150 years before the creation of the NO RTA. Both articles have substantial content, and both have potential for substantial expansion. -- Infrogmation (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Infrogmation. New Orleans Public Service and its predecessors operated the New Orleans streetcars for a long time before NO RTA was created, and it does not seem to make sense to include their period of operation under the RTA article. HGFriedman (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Streetcar expansion

I have noticed that this article makes no mention of the current construction and plans for streetcar expansion. I recently improved an existing section about street car expansion on the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority page. I think either the section I wrote should be moved to this page or that this page needs a similar section. Any thoughts? Argonius2 (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to write a similar section here. I was tempted to do it, but was too busy. I think two points could be made: (1) The current construction of the UPT branch line up Loyola Ave., and (2) the plans to build down Rampart and St. Claude to at least Press St. (It looks like RTA wants to run these two as one cross-Canal line. There hasn't been a cross-Canal streetcar line since the late 1920s.) HGFriedman (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I have added to this article a link to the streetcar expansion section of the RTA article. Seemed better than duplicating text, which might not remain duplicated as the articles evolve. HGFriedman (talk) 16:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Should there be more updated history? There seems to be an over emphasis on the history of the streetcars. Zospence3 (talk) 15:11, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm. In the ten years since the above comments were written, the Future Network Expansion section seems to have evolved beyond recognition. I will give some thought to fixing this. But there really isn't much "updated history". Streetcar expansion in N. O. seems to be unlikely in the foreseeable future. It seems to me that to talk about the streetcars of N. O., one mostly has to talk about history. HGFriedman (talk) 15:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Turns out the Future Network Expansion section had vanished from the article, though it is referenced in the Streetcars under RTA section. I recreated a very short Future Network Expansion section that describes the planned but unfunded extensions of the Rampart-St. Claude and Riverfront lines. HGFriedman (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Do we need so many infoboxes?

This article has five infoboxes, it seems a little excessive and pushes photos quite far down the page. This means that there's no space for photos for most of the "Current lines". Three infoboxes are about rollingstock, and at the top of the page are completely out of context, I think we should eliminate them, the info they contain is better suited to a table in the "Current rolling stock" section. The map could be moved into the main info box and the "St. Charles Streetcar Line" would sit next to the section it relates to. If I don't see any objections in the next few days I'm going to go ahead and make the changes. Liamdavies (talk) 12:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Speaking just for myself, I have no objection to such a rearrangement of the rolling stock info. BTW, speaking of the map, it is slightly out of date, in that it doesn't show the fact that the Loyola Line is finished, nor the latest extent of the Rampart-St. Claude line now being designed. I'd fix it, but I don't think I know how. HGFriedman (talk) 17:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I've changed the main infobox and put the map in there. I've also updated the map as far as the Loyola Ave Line is concerned, but a little help with the latest news on on the French Quarter extension plan would be nice, can you please provide a map or route description? Liamdavies (talk) 09:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I like most of what you have done with the article. I'm not sure what you're asking about the map or route description, as you seem to have discovered the text in the RTA article and copied it here. If you need more, see http://www.norta.com/about/Capital_Projects/index.html . HGFriedman (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

One thing I'd like to see a little different is to change the location of the new picture captioned "St. Charles Avenue, New Orleans Central Business District, 1920." This does not depict the St. Charles car line, which at that time did not run on this portion of St. Charles Street. I suggest moving it to the Historic Lines section. Ideally, it belongs next to the description of the Clio Line -- the car in the foreground displays a Clio route sign -- but there is no mention of the Clio Line. I don't have time to do it now, but I'll add that line to the Historic Lines section later. HGFriedman (talk) 14:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I've now added the Clio Line to the Historic Lines section. HGFriedman (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I've moved the picture you mentioned, and added a few more through out the article. Can you have a look over them, their description and placement, and either alter them or tell me what needs altering? Sorry, but as a Melburnian, my knowledge of New Orleans is quite low. I still fail to see what more needs fixing in the map. Is there anything else? Liamdavies (talk) 07:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Nice job with the pictures. Thanks! I have edited the captions a bit (it really is "Perley Thomas", not "Thomas Perley", which I admit does sound more probable). Re. the map, the "under construction" color ought to end on the east at Elysian Fields, with the remainder to the east and the part on Elysian Fields itself shown in the "planned" color. And actually, "under construction" is slightly premature; the section from Canal Street to Elysian Fields is actively being designed, and is reasonably certain of being constructed in the near future. The rest is left to some vague future possible world. See map in the WWLTV reference in the "Future network expansion" section of the article. HGFriedman (talk) 17:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• Recent improvements look good to me! Kudos! -- Infrogmation (talk) 18:46, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Infrogmation! Is the map a little more correct now HGFriedman? If not I'll have to try again (I hope to get it right one day). It would be nice to get a bit more history into this article, does anyone know a good source? Liamdavies (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, map looks good to me! Thanks. As for a good source, THE source for the history of New Orleans streetcars is Hennick & Charlton, "The Streetcars of New Orleans", published by Pelican (earlier edition, privately published by Hennick, titled "Louisiana - Its Street and Interurban Railway", vol. 2 (vol. 1 is the rest of Louisiana). Copies are frequently available on ebay. Supplemental data on the cars is on my website, http://www.cs.illinois.edu/homes/friedman/app3/App3.htm I've always intended to put more of the history into the article, but have been too busy. HGFriedman (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

History section expanded

Well, I finally bit this bullet and wrote something in the History section. More could be written; less could be written. I hope I've made some kind of balance. I have not made a lot of links to elsewhere in Wikipedia; perhaps others will wish to add some. HGFriedman (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Preserved streetcars

Ckeavy has added to the list of rolling stock that car 966 is preserved at Seashore. While true, this is merely one preserved car out of the following list (from my notes); 832, 836, 850, 913, 918, 919, 924, 952, 957, 959, and 966.

It makes no sense to me to mention 966 and not mention any of the others, so I am going to remove that new line. I would consider putting almost all of these (not 957, since it is mentioned as 457) into a new subsection, but I don't have time now. Opinions? HGFriedman (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, no comments so far. I found time, and added a new section on all preserved N. O. cars.HGFriedman (talk) 16:28, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Rolling Stock

I do not believe RTA uses the 400 series cars any more. They are replicas, not historical, and are not ADA compliant, thus I believe they are not allowed to roll on either the St. Charles line, nor on the newer lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NarrowlyLearned (talk • contribs) 18:14, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

The 457-463 cars are indeed wheelchair accessible. AFAIK, they are still in use on Riverfront. It is true that they are replicas, having been built about 1997 at Carrollton Station. HGFriedman (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Citing sources

In response to HGFriedman's comment: "I don't feel the need to list a citation for each and every statement made. The point of the citation of Hennick & Charlton at the beginning of the History section was to obviate the need for dozens of individual citations. I think they would make the text very cumbersome to read, and I don't notice such voluminous citations in most Wikipedia articles I read. It would be different if the facts came from many different sources, but there exist very few sources other than Hennick & Charlton's book."

There are no specific guidelines about how many inline citations should be in an article. However, one of the canons is WP: VERIFY. This is a courtesy to readers and it also keeps editors honest and accurate. It allows other editors to make corrections. When you cite a book without a page number, you make it very difficult to verify the source. That's my argument for narrowing the scope of a book cited to a page, a small range of pages, or sometimes a chapter, if it's a short one. Having one or two inline citations per paragraph is not cumbersome, and with the mouse-over feature, the reader does not even scroll down to read the citation. If there's source as good as Hennick and Charlton on this subject, I am not aware of it. But when you cite a 223 page book without page numbers, those are not really verifiable citations. In principle they are still verifiable, but that's making it very hard on readers and other editors.

For anybody following this who is interested in editing the article, we are referring to Streetcars of New Orleans by Louis C. Hennick and E. Harper Charlton, originally published in 1975, but reprinted at least twice. Right now even used copies are expensive, so will some publisher please do another print run? One way to search your area for libraries holding this book is checking WorldCat. Follow the following link and enter your zip code in the box where it says "Enter your location": [1] cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 22:03, 18 June 2018 (UTC) (edited once by) Oldsanfelipe (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Ok. I read the exchange in talk:Citing sources‬. I've just spent the morning adding more detailed sections to the article. There's lots more to go.HGFriedman (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Rome wasn't built in a day, or even in a century. Finding sources for existing text is hard! Keep up the good work. This a decent article and the subject is worthy. I have been critical, but you have compiled some great material which is hard to write about. There is no way I could have done what you have with this subject. I can be a good second set of eyes, though, because I have the patience to check and verify sources. Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 18:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm done with adding and editing sources in this article, at least for now. I think the most important items I cannot find a good source for are the references to the 1902 and 1958 start and end to official Jim Crow laws, in the section Electric streetcars under consolidated operation. Any suggestions, from anyone knowledgeable about that, would be most welcome. HGFriedman (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I've added to the sections on the rolling stock some references to Hennick's Appendix III, with page letters. (The pages are labelled a-z and aa-yy.) HGFriedman (talk) 15:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I am busy right now with an article in GA-review:Charles Morgan (businessman), if you are interested. Presently it's on a course to fail and I have much work to do. The criticisms are all legit, demonstrating the value of a critical (but reasonable) editor. Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 15:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

HGFriedman: I am looking at p. 42 of Hennick and Charlton. Would you mind pulling a short quote that supports the following text in the WP article, "The longest of New Orleans' streetcar lines, the St. Charles Avenue line, is the oldest continuously operating street railway system in the world." I am using a 2000 reprint and I am not finding support at the page cited. I am wondering if the later publisher changed the pagination. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 14:28, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't own a copy of the 2000 reprint, but I am under the impression its pagination is the same; I could be wrong about that. The page 42 I'm looking at in the 1975 printing has a photo of car 972 at the top; caption says it's on S. Claiborne at Nashville. Last sentence of the first paragraph on that page, parenthetical remark: "the oldest street railway line in the world still in operation". As for being the longest: at that point, it was the only line in the city; for current, a glance at the maps proves that. HGFriedman (talk) 16:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, then the reprint has the same pagination. That's normal, but not universal. As for the claim in the article, it appears to be a synthetic statement that is certainly true, but not completely supported by the source. I'll look for a book on the general history of streetcars in the US. Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The statement that the St. Charles line is the oldest in the world has been repeated often, and in many places. I pulled a couple of books off my shelf, and offer these citations if you think we need a better one.

• William D. Middleton, Trolley Car Treasury, Kalmbach, 1967, p. 251. [A classic fan book.]
• August Perez & Associates, The Last Line--A Streetcar Named St. Charles, Pelican, 1973, p. 7.

Neither of those speaks to longest, as when they were written, St. Charles was the only line. HGFriedman (talk) 22:17, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I think I need to read something more basic. What are the main scholarly books on the history of New Orleans? Oldsanfelipe (talk) 15:51, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Pontchartrain Railroad

I have some questions about the Pontchartrain Railroad:

• Hennick and Charlton start with the PRR and there does not seem to be a clean resolution: it just fades out of the story. How much was this line ever used as local passenger service?
• Did NOLA prohibit steam railways within the city?
• Was the PRR considered to run outside NOLA in the 1830s and 1840s?

Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 20:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Well....

* The PRR wasn't ever part of the streetcar system. That's why I was reluctant to mention it in the WP article, but the paragraph you recently wrote seems appropriate. Hennick did write more about the PRR. His manuscript, called Appendix III (to his book), which was near completion when he recently died, is online on my web site at: http://friedman.cs.illinois.edu/app3/App3.htm; see page e (he lettered the pages, a-z and aa-yy, with some insertions I made as he expanded his text).

* In the early 1800s, the city we know as NOLA did not encompass the whole of present-day Orleans Parish, nor was the boundary between Orleans and Jefferson Parishes (Jefferson being the next parish to the west) in the same place it's in today. As the City expanded to the west (upriver), basically along the line of what is today St. Charles Ave., it annexed one after another of the small suburbs, called faubourgs (from the French faux bourg, false town). As Jeff Parish faubourgs were annexed to NOLA, the territory was annexed to Orleans Parish as well, pushing the parish boundary to the west, until the town of Carrollton was eventually annexed and the process ended. A similar process took place as the City built north, although there weren't separate parishes up there. But the unimproved land north of the city and south of Lake Pontchartrain was considered to be outside the City, until it was gradually filled in (so to speak). I'm not sure whether that land had to be annexed, or was legally already part of the City, but in the public mind (e.g., in the newspapers of the time), it was outside the city. So in that sense, at least, the PRR ran out of the city as it ran north.

* I'd have to research whether the City government actually prohibited steam engines at some point. Certainly it did not originally. You can explore other steam RRs (besides the PRR) in Hennick's appendix III. In the case of the N. O. & Carrollton (which evolved into the St. Charles streetcar line), the property owners along the line -- as the territory bult up -- began to object, eventually vehemently, to the noise and soot of the steam engines, leading to horsecar substitution -- first only up to Napoleon (about halfway to Carrollton), then finally to the entire line -- then in 1893 to electrification. But I'm not sure whether there was legal prohibition. Certainly some steam RRs, such as the PRR, continued under steam power well into the 20th century.

I didn't set out to write such a long treatise. But I hope it's helpful. Sometimes the teacher in me comes out.  :-) HGFriedman (talk) 21:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I prefer a treatise over a stingy explanation. I now see the southern terminus of the former PRR on the Google map called "Faubourg Marigny." That probably indicates it was considered outside NOLA in those days. I have associated locomotives with commuter or intercity service, and the horse railways and trolleys with local service. In addition to the noise and soot, running local service with a locomotive must have been too inefficient.

The steam trains and the omnibuses were not part of the streetcar system, but they were a part of the public transportation system. That's the strength of the way the article is written. Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 22:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I answered my own question about Faubourg Marigny. It was incorporated as the third "municipality" (a district within the city) in the 1820s, so the PRR did run through part of New Orleans proper when it began operations. Oldsanfelipe (talk) 16:04, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

A point of confusion in this article about once defunct vs rebuilt/returned to service NO streetcar lines

The articles seems to imply that all but the St. Charles Streetcar line had been taken out of service by the mid 60's. But the current maps seems to shows several once defunct lines now back in operation but the article does not do a good job of explaining how this came to be. Reading the article I was left with several questions such a:

• I am correct that all other N.O. streetcar lines (other then the St. Charles line) where all, by the mid 60's, converted to bus operation and if so, gas or electric or both? Does this mean that in the 70's that only one streetcar line remain in operation? At what point did other streetcar lines resume operations? 80's, 90's, 2000's? when?
• Did they remove the track and/or electrical overhead lines on any of the once defunct lines now back in operation, thus requiring some track or electrical line rebuilding when the line was returned to service?
• Did some track and/or electrical overhead wires remain simply requiring repairs/upgrades to bring the line back into service?
• When did the current lines (other then the St. Charles) each return to service and how have each line been modified, shortened, combines, etc. from their original routes?
• Any new lines/routes or expansion of old lines/routes that did not exist in the early 20th century?

I would suggest someone knowledgeable enough about N.O. streetcar history create a separate section where we talk more specifically and in depth about the rebuilding of the system to the modern route layout and about the recreation/restoring of once defunct lines. We can include the answers to the above questions in this section or elsewhere in the article, as appropriate. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 18:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Hello, notcharliechaplin,

First, I'll answer your questions in order:

• They did remove all track and electrical overhead after substituting buses for streetcars. They did not in all cases remove it immediately; there are still to this day some track remnants scattered around New Orleans. The last line to be abandoned, Canal, had its track and overhead removed immediately; NOPSI feared a court order (which never came) to restore service, so they made restoration infeasible as quickly as they could.
• Nothing remained of Canal track or overhead. The service restored in 2004 was all on new track and wire.
• This is answered in the article, in the Current Lines section.
• This is also answered in the article. Riverfront and Loyola/UPT are new lines. Rampart/St. Claude is a short form of the old St. Claude line, which went out in 1949, with all track and overhead wire removed. So these are all new track and wire construction.
• See above.

I would be the logical person to add something about these details to the article. I'll have to think about it, and put it in my work queue. HGFriedman (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I added some details to the Streetcars under RTA section and to the fourth paragraph above that section. See what you think. HGFriedman (talk) 15:48, 10 January 2019 (UTC)