Talk:Suckless.org

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The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.
Their edits to this article were last checked for neutrality on 2020-08-05 by Dexxor.

Garbeam (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (Special:Diff/914155672)
Meillo (talk · contribs) This user has not edited the article. This user has declared a connection. (Special:Diff/971300751)

Neo-Nazi Torchlit march

Just out of curiosity, why is Wikipedia censoring coverage of Suckless.org's neo-Nazi torchlit march? It's well-sourced. Seems like a violation of NPOV to censor well-sourced information that might give Suckless.org unfavorable press --68.58.181.206 (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to try to wikilawyer over WP:NPOV, at least try to understand WP:RS first. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 01:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the torch lit march

I'm Anselm from suckless.org and I find this comparison to right wing symbolism etc. absurd. The torch lit march was just a hike on a trail with torches and had by no means any political message. There were no drums or anything that would relate it to right wing torch marches. The opinions of FRIGN, who attended the march are his own opinions in social media and do not reflect the opinion of the suckless.org Conference attendees incl. myself or its community. Suckless.org has never been in any way a political community or project, we aim to just focus on technical aspects/topics.

I tried to fix the recent changes of this Wikipedia page and I clarified the section about the torch hike. If people believe it is important enough to stay, I suggest to keep it as a controversy section, as the version I edited was so far fetched and absurd, that I had to edit as this is quite a discrediting claim for all contributors and for myself as the founder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garbeam (talk • contribs) 14:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Created "Controversies" section

This subsection is recurring libel from people interested in anti/fascist politics and witch-hunting. Please stop, even if stirred up in election times, and get back to topic: the aim and scope of suckless software, minimalism, advanced programming ... 212.201.115.11 (talk)-- — Preceding undated comment added 08:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not you agree with the ties between suckless and the extremist right, it's important that this stuff is documented, as there are plenty of third party sources that talk about this. I tried to make the section as neutral as possible, and everything is sourced. No definitive claims are made; there is only information that others have made claims. I'd appreciate feedback and contributions to the section, but please do not remove it as it is noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebastian Hudak (talk • contribs) 01:17, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like it was removed. It feels like it should be re-added - thoughts @Sebastian Hudak: ? - 96.28.229.174 (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The section was removed because the cited sources were not reliable. Greyjoy^talk 16:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Heh - I'd had this page up for a while and missed the edit warring on that section. I'll see if I can find some decent sources, but the paste seems to be gone and I doubt the tweet itself falls under WP:RS. 96.28.229.174 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do statements from members of suckless themselves count as reliable? Here is one example of a developer repeating the anti-semitic canard of "cultural Marxism" while wearing a suckless.org "hat", which is lobste.rs lingo for speaking in an official capacity. See also this post from Lennart Poettering. KetchupSalt (talk) 15:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you wanna count them as controversial, IMO you need secondary sources that say it's controversial. Anyone can mark an enemy Aaron Liu (talk) 15:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not understanding that antisemitic canards are controversial borders on not understanding that the sky is WP:BLUE. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A user-generated community agreeing about something unfortunately does not count as being obvious as Wikipedia does not trust such communities and only trusts secondary news sources or subject-matter experts. The only source in the section that is maybe reliable would be Lennart Poettering, and we’d probably have to attribute the claim to him. See also Wikipedia:BFDI. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:52, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the usage of lobste.rs and suckless.org to claim controversy would be Wikipedia:OR. That’s like saying some European brand put salt in ketchup^[1] which provoked outrage due to being American salt.^[2] Aaron Liu (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ official press release
^ some anti-American forum

Evolution: wmii.de, 10kloc.org, suckless.org

Here some information I've gathered:

2005-11: wmii.de, only this single project AFAIK (cf. https://lists.suckless.org/wmii/0510/0001.html)
2006-07-18: switch to 10kloc.org, start of being a collection of programs: https://lists.suckless.org/wmii/0607/2438.html
2006-10-09?: rename to suckless.org: https://lists.suckless.org/wmii/0610/2765.html (the best message I found)

As I came to the project in 2006-11, I don't really know about the time before. Before 2006-07 there seems to have been only wmii as the only program. Suckless as we know it today started in 2006-07 it seems.

Mailinglist archives start 2005-10 (wmii).

It would be nice to have such information in the article. --Meillo (talk) 08:08, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I added the registration date of suckless.org to the article. I wonder why the article currently states “founded in 2002”. Perhaps change this to July 2006 with the 10kloc.org announcement as the source? If we do this, suckless’s origins from wmii should also be mentioned. It looks like the wmii project already hosted ii in Feb 2006. —Dexxor (talk) 14:22, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the date to 2006-07 might be sensible, as then the project grew beyond wmii (and some train-riding projects) to a more general collection of tools that match a certain philosophy ... at least in the public presentation. The key sentence in the linked message would be: Yesterday I founded the 10kloc project, which is dedicated to host small non-GNU open source software projects, including wmii, ii, sic, dwm, 9base, and upcoming projects like a mail client, a terminal, the creation of stand-alone libraries out of libixp, libnet, libcext and liblitz.

Here https://web.archive.org/web/20060512185351/http://wmii.de/download/ (dated 2006-05) you find 9base-1-rc1 of 2005-12 and ii-1-rc1 of 2005-11. These surounding projects are starting to come up, but they are still train-riding wmii, it seems.

Here https://web.archive.org/web/20060101012148/http://w3studi.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/~garbeam/wmii.pdf (dated 2004-12) Anselm Garbe lists: WMI specification in 2001, start of WMI project 2003-10.

I haven't found a basis for the 2002 founding date.

--Meillo (talk) 09:38, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Iketsi: as the one who added “founded in 2002” to the article, and @Garbeam: because he claims to be Anselm R. Garbe. —Dexxor (talk) 14:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I probably based the "founded in 2002" claim on Martin Kopta's root.cz article. Iketsi (talk) 14:43, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that I started the work on WMI back in 2002. wmii was probably started in summer 2003. WMI was written in C++, whereas wmii was a rewrite in C with concepts adopted from the Plan 9 OS. Initially WMI was hosted on belios.de, later moved to its own wmi.modprobe.de host and in 2003 I registered wmii.de for the new project. Until 2005 the community around wmii did grow significantly and more tools appeared in the context, that's when I first intended to use 10kloc.org as umbrella org, but revisited that rather random limit of 10k LOC and registered suckless.org, which then has become the host for many projects. HTH --garbeam — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garbeam (talk • contribs) 17:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"SLCon" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect SLCon. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 27#SLCon until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the recent edits and on controversies

Two IPs have been mini-warring about suckless' controversies. While the edit by 2601:156:8000:6930:d835:957b:5a36:1b5f uses some sources that are not WP:RS, for example the neocities one, and primary sources (which are discouraged in WP), there is still ample evidence of suckless' reactionary tendencies. But also 212.201.115.11's assertion that suckless is not about politics is demonstrably wrong. What we ought to do is come up with a section that is more WP:WikiVoice on the topic. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

cat-v.org

If I'm not mistaken, the Suckless community is also affiliated with the cat-v.org website. 2601:8C:4182:9B40:3576:EDF6:D689:B71A (talk) 01:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ress release

[2] some anti-American forum

[1]

[2]