Talk:Summer time in Europe

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Table

{{Europe time 2024}}

Removed slow templates

Pending a fix in MediaWiki, I'm removing templates such as {{before}}. They take about 20 seconds each to process. The fact that using such a large amount of CPU time is even possible is only due to a flaw in the MediaWiki, they will stop working soon. -- Tim Starling 03:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Math Formulas don't belong

Simply say begins in last Sunday in March and ends in last Sunday of October. Joncnunn 18:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Formulae will be useful for programmers

82.163.24.100 13:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Better description of the formula -

Let year = year to query (must be greater than 1980).

All values are integers (ie. integer division).

Start date = (31 - (((year - 1980) + ((year - 1980) / 4) + 1) mod 7)

End date = (31 - (((year - 1980) + ((year - 1980) / 4) + 5) mod 7))

This will hold true for all dates in the future. 82.47.93.63 (talk) 09:55, 2 July 2020 (UTC) I tried it out with the year 2100 and it came up with Saturday 27 March. The formula doesn't cope with 2100 not being a leap year.

Hope someone can update the main page while retaining existing style (I am new to Wikipedia..)

Added fast templates

Pending permission from Tim Starling, I've added the {{Europe time 2006}} template to the talk page only. It should take much less than 20 seconds each for the {{between}} templates to process, thanks to the m:ParserFunctions Tim gave us. --Uncle Ed 14:04, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct EEST/EEDT change moment

According to Microsoft TzEdit utility there are different moments then Daylight time come in effect. For example (GMT+02:00) Helsinki, Kyiv, Riga, Sofia, Tallinn, Vilnius (aka FLE Daylight Time) get applied at Last Sunday of March at 3:00:00, and discarded at Last Sunday of October at 4:00:00. In contrast (GMT+02:00) Athens, Beirut, Istanbul, Minsk (aka GTB Standard Time) come in effect at Last Sunday of March at 2:00:00 and discarted at Last Sunday of October at 3:00:00. This mean that we need reliable sources to validate then DST switch occur at different countries. For example for Ukraine there is law at (in Ukrainian) Parlament website. It's 3-4.

Microsoft is inadequately authoritative.

82.163.24.100 13:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

For Belarus there is reference to law (Russian: Постановление Кабинета Министров от 13 мая 1996 года N 317 "Об изменении порядка исчисления времени на территории Республики Беларусь") and newspaper article. It's 2-3.

This also make sence to note in article that DST changes in the past were at different time and even date for some countries. --TAG 08:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph agreed with. 82.163.24.100 13:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Various

Second paragraph, above contents box, states one period for all Europe, later contradicted. It may be true to say that in Europe there are just 3 rules, those of Iceland, the EU, and Russia, with countries not included by that following either EU or Russia.

If heading "Exact timing in the next several years" were changed to "Exact dates for several years" it would no longer be necessary to delete a year exactly at each new year. Including the previous year would, I think, be of some use. Move the times to another section, and this section would apply also to Russia.

"For today these formulae yield 0 (1 = summer time)." - not true - this year, they yield 25 and 28. Underlying meaning can be deduced, and should be written.

Change heading "Russia & Belarus", and list European countries using those rules. If the list is incomplete, no doubt people will provide additions.

Turkey, being neither ex-USSR nor entirely European (Asia Minor) is worth explicit mention; I believe it uses exact EU rules, but check.

The term "European Summer Time" should be used only to refer to what EU and Russia and Iceland do or do not do. The term "EU Summer Time" should be used where applicable.

I believe that UK law changes Summer Time at 01:00 GMT, not UTC (though UTC is used for time signals).

Probably worth including, for cross-reference, the term "DST" = "Daylight saving time", saying that the term is not used in Europe. Or not much used. That effectively provides the links in the DST page, but those of European significance should be repeated here - Franklin, Willett

82.163.24.100 13:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Local observations

The page says - But in the Republic of Ireland standard time is CET (UTC+1) and the clocks are turned back for winter time.

That seems wrong. The Irish Act of 1968 fixed local time at GMT+1, all year round, with no mention of putting the clock back for Winter.

The UK and the RoI - indeed, the whole British Isles - used GMT+1 for the whole of the period Summer 1968 to Summer 1971, as I recall.

Since the Irish ceased using Dublin-based time (on 1916-10-01), local time has always been uniform across the British Isles, apart from possible distinction between UTC and GMT.

Check with an informed Irish source, and with Myers' http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jsm28/british-time/.

---

On second thoughts, while the Standard Time (Amendment) Act of 1971 reinstituted Summer and Winter time, it did not redefine Irish Standard Time to GMT.

For the avoidance of doubt, both Acts should be cited. The first Act to define Standard Time, and the second Act to turn the clocks back.

82.163.24.100 16:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Spring forward & fall back

Just because we're British and use the word 'autumn' in normal conversation doesn't mean we don't know what 'fall' means in the above phrase. It is perfectly suited to its usage and I suspect used widely throughout the UK as a reminder. Mannafredo (talk) 11:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Why today is computed as summer time?

Today (27 October 2008 15:56 CET) is computed as summer time = 1. Is this an error in the subprogram? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.159.196.12 (talk) 14:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No idea; it certainly says 0 now and for me. Are you sure you haven't just misread the sentence? It says that the offset is 0, and that the offset being 1 would mean summer time – not that the offset is actually 1. -- Jao (talk) 18:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

Shouldn't it be "European summer time"? -- Jao (talk) 15:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is European Summertime so asymmetrical?

Summertime is claimed “to make the most of seasonal daylight” and it is often argued that it reduces road accidents, save power etc, so surely it should relate to daylight hours? Daylight hours are, by definition, the same at each Equinox, so basing the dates on these gives:-

Spring Equinox = 20 or 21 March

Summertime starts last Sunday in March = 25-31 March. This is 4-11 days after i.e. on the Summer side of the Spring Equinox.

Autumn Equinox = 22 or 23 September

Summertime ends last Sunday in October = 25-31 October. This is 32-39 days after i.e. on the Winter side of the Autumn Equinox

There is, therefore, a minimum imbalance of 36 days and can be an imbalance of 50 days between the start and finish of European Summertime. Why is Summertime so asymmetrical?
Arjayay (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

To add to my own unanswered question of 20 months ago:-
Consider sunrise and sunset at Greenwich Observatory in 2011
Last Sunday in Mar = 27 Mar - Sunrise = 05.48 - Sunset = 18.24 giving 12h 34 min of daylight
Last Sunday in Oct = 30 Oct - Sunrise = 06.48 - Sunset = 16.39 giving 9h 51 min of daylight
For times and hours to be roughly equal, one or other of the changes needs to be moved a month back.
Why were these asymmetrical dates proposed, let alone agreed?
Arjayay (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It was a change from late September to late October in 1996 for Central european time. There must have been a reason, so a suggestion is to ask those who decided why. --BIL (talk) 12:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I beg to differ - I commuted by train to university in 1983 and remember the posters in the railway station reminding commuters of the change in late October, I think 27th. University term time didn't begin until October, it could not have been in September at that time. I am also v interested in the asymmetry, as the PP said, there must be a reason. Cathi M (talk) 12:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Formula for 2100+?

Has anyone worked out how to correct the formula to work for Year 2100 (which is not a leap year) and beyond? If I suss it out I'll post it. — PhilHibbs | talk 15:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The formula for the last sunday of march for every year since 1583 is:

Sunday (31 − (5 * y ÷ 4 - y÷100 + y÷400 + 5) mod 7) March at 01:00 GMTJapf (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

More concisely (assuming current rules):

Begin summertime: Sunday, 31 – [(f + 5) mod 7] March at 01:00 UTC

End summertime: Sunday, 31 – [(f + 2) mod 7] October at 01:00 UTC

with f = (floor((5*y)/4) – floor(y/100) + floor(y/400)) mod 7 AstroLynx (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Daylight saving time in Europe

Wouldn't it make sense to merge Daylight saving time in Europe into this article? As I see it there's no difference other than terminology. Peregrine981 (talk) 09:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed so much so that I'll start the formal procedure _ Arjayay (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

"Summer Time in Europe" is not going well with other article titles and it is ambiguous.

1. Summer Time should be lower cased: Summer time
2. Summer time in <region> is ambiguous, European Summer Time was not.
3. I suggest move Daylight saving time in Europe to Daylight saving time in Europe/version2 and then move "Summer Time in Europe" to Daylight saving time in Europe which will match with other articles listed at Special:PrefixIndex/Daylight saving time in. Tamawashi (talk) 00:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Disagree "Daylight saving time" not a phrase that is commonly used in Europe - I assume it comes from US English? WP:COMMONTITLE states "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used" which is "Summer Time" - Arjayay (talk) 07:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Daylight saving time in Europe be merged into European Summer Time. The articles cover exactly the same subject, but European Summer Time is the correct title, (see Daylight saving time) and includes a map and formula for deriving the dates. Daylight saving time in Europe will be retained as a redirect. Arjayay (talk) 12:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Name

On a slightly pedantic note, wouldn't this article better be called "Summer Time in Europe" or "Summer-Time in Europe" in line with Daylight saving time in Asia, Daylight saving time in Africa etc... ? This is because "European Summer Time" isn't so much one concept as much as a discussion of the usage of Summer Time throughout Europe. Better to have a consistent usage across wikipedia, even if we are using different terminology for the different continents. Peregrine981 (talk) 12:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Kazakhstan

is not in Europe. Shouldn't we remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruuud (talk • contribs) 14:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Removed Chirea Mircea (talk) 03:58, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but perhaps you should have moved it to DST in Asia, rather than simply deleting it. Peregrine981 (talk) 13:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course Kazakhstan is in Europe. Tamawashi (talk) 00:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly. According to Kazakhstan and List of transcontinental countries, it's predominantly in Central Asia, while the part west of the Ural River is considered to be in Eastern Europe. It's one of five countries like this, the others being Russia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Georgia. Our own articles, though, are inconsistent on this, and borders seem to vary based on the subject. The concept of Eurasia seems more current, too. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Switzerland

I'm swiss and encountered the following sentence :

 The last country in Europe to adopt summer time, in 1981, was Switzerland, because of the stiff opposition of the
 influential Swiss farmers' lobby, who repeatedly stalled attempts by the Federal Assembly to legislate on the matter,
 and subsequently sponsored referendums to abrogate it.

This doesn't sound encyclopaedic or neutral at all, it sounds like a pro-summer time propaganda, insinuating that farming is an evil "lobby" and that they were "blocking" the federal assembly. Makes no sense at all - the fact that our country resisted against European directives on summer time during the 20th century should be cited in a more neutral and formal way. ~~ 128.179.146.104 (talk) 09:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Please go ahead and make the changes you think are appropriate. Peregrine981 (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Done.85.1.241.60 (talk) 00:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Should the following from the section on Switzerland and Lichtenstein, not say "so that there was no time difference between this village and the rest of Switzerland.", or just exclude the final clause of the sentence entirely?(unless I'm reading it incorrectly): "The German village of Büsingen am Hochrhein, a small exclave, entirely surrounded by Swiss territory, also observes the same time as in Switzerland; it did not implement summer time in 1980, and observed the same time as Switzerland, so that there was no time difference between this village and the rest of Germany." rufioh^talk_sign 00:17, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Russia, Belarus

The country information for Russia has been updated to reflect the change back to permanent Standard time, but the "Countries not using summer time" section needs updating too. I'd do it myself but I'm unable to find out whether Belarus (also mentioned in that section) has also shifted back in the same way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rosbif73 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources

With regards to reference 13, why on earth are we using news websites instead of going direct to the PRIMARY source which is: https://www.eu2018.at/latest-news/news/10-29-Informal-meeting-of-transport-and-environment-ministers.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.59.150 (talk) 08:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

See WP:PSTS for an explanation of why secondary sources are preferred. And please add new sections to the bottom of talk pages. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:19, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Flags

Per wp:FLAGCRUFT, I propose to remove the flag icons from this article. The ones on the section headings are particularly poor since they make wlinking unnecessarily difficult. Does anyone have any convincing reason not to do so? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:07, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Why {{CURRENTYEAR}}+3?

Is this correct to provide time changesbased on {{CURRENTYEAR}}+3, when and if {{CURRENTYEAR}} can change?

Requested move 11 May 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 21:00, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Summer Time in Europe → Summer time in Europe – Article titles should use the sentence case whenever possible. I see no reason to keep summer time capitalized. Interstellarity (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support. "Summer time" is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized. It is analogous to Daylight saving time in the Americas, which uses the correct capitalization. BLAIXX 17:09, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. In standard British spelling, British Summer Time is always capitalised, as is Summer Time in general. When not capitalised, the implied meaning is as "in the summer time when the days are long and sunny". See multiple examples on .gov.uk Just because EN-US usage differs differs is not a good enough reason. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: I have capitalized summer time in the daylight saving time article. See here. Interstellarity (talk) 17:55, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Standard British spelling? While "British Summer Time" and "Eastern Daylight Time" (in the US) are proper nouns, "summer time" on its own is not. British publication such as the BBC also use the uncapitalized version (example). Also I think the alternate word you are describing is spelled summertime, without the space. BLAIXX 18:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

If the BBC, clearly a wp:rs, says little s little t, then I concede and withdraw. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:23, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support move. "Summer time" is not a proper noun. O.N.R. ^(talk) 20:44, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support Since "summer time" = "daylight saving time" and many Wikipedia articles on daylight saving times (Daylight saving time in Africa, Daylight saving time in Morocco, Daylight saving time by country, [and a redirect page]) all seem to use lowercase "t". OkayKenji (talk) 04:37, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Question Pending what we decide on this page...should we apply the same thing to Summer Time in Africa and Daylight saving time in Asia (both are redirect pages)?

@OkayKenji: Yes, I agree. Interstellarity (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:NCCAPS, summer time is not being used as a proper noun. Rosbif73 (talk) 17:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support per capitalization standards on Wikipedia. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:13, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hora de verao listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Hora de verao. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 05:08, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Table of transition dates for European Summer Time

Per WP:CRYSTAL, I removed dates from this table that are more than five years into the future, since there is no sound basis to provide them. There is a broad consensus in the EU to end the biannual practice of changing the clocks back and forth, so to give projected dates that far into the future is WP:OR. Exactly when the practice will end is currently in discussion. An IP editor reverted that deletion without an explanation and I have reinstated. If there is a sound reason why standard Wikipedia policy should not apply in this case, please provide it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Lack of standard time zone critics / Permament summer time / Two hours advance in summer time idea

There should be section for critics of standard time zone, so-called winter time. I mean, if we want to step away from time change, we should stay at summer time permanently otherwise day would be shorter for whole time not only in "winter time". The entire point of summer time is to have longer day. I think we could even advance by two hours in summer time so the day would be longer. Eurohunter (talk) 16:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If you can find reliably sourced evidence for your conjecture, then the article can certainly be amended to include it.

But I think you have made an error in your logic. In northern Norway and Finland, near the Arctic Circle, a midsummer day lasts almost 24 hours; in winter it lasts barely one. Conversely, in Cyprus and southern Spain, there is not a lot of difference in the length of a solar day between January and June. What the clock says in entirely arbitrary: the day is the length it is, no matter what the clock says. Iceland operates UTC+00:00 all year round, although according to its longitude it should be on UTC-02:00. Birds wake at dawn and roost at dusk: in Iceland, that gives them a 23-hour day in June and a one-hour day in December (well it would if they hung around for it and didn't fly south for the winter). Whether you choose to do the same is up to you. Daylight saving time was a war-time innovation invented purely to get people to work for as long as there is enough light to do so. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, most countries that would adopt winter time year-round would have sunrises at or before 4 o'clock in early summer. That's the most important reason why summer time, not winter time, should be kept. Only Spain and Gibraltar (and optionally Andorra, if they want) should keep winter time (which corresponds to summer time at their longitudes). Other countries should keep summer time year-round. Hungary, Slovakia and western Balkan countries may even consider changing to double summer time as even with their current summer time it gets day rather too early in the summer. However, this option has become less likely since Ukraine kept their winter time. 2001:4BC9:1F98:B54:D61:E4A0:31E4:D453 (talk) 14:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a debating forum or a place to publish personal theories, so this discussion must end here. But just for your education, I invite you to find out why it was that Scotland strongly opposed adoption of CET/CEST. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)