Talk:Suspicious deaths of notable Russians in 2022–2024

Write prose, not a list

I have tagged this article for clean-up as it may be better written as PROSE, rather than being a LIST. The purpose of this list appears to be a LINKFARM to unwritten articles. Before attempting to create a list of Russian businessmen who have died in unusual or mysterious circumstances, First write about them, before including their articles in a list. Unless they are notable for other reasons, in general their individual deaths, alone, are not, so the best place to write about their deaths is within this article. Another reason this article should not be a list is that it is both time limited to the year 2022, ethnographically limited to Russians, and internally it is occupationally limited to businessmen. We already have a List of unsolved deaths that has global relevance and is far more general, so any small list article, like this one is currently, is likely to be merged into that article. Also, need the article be confined to the year 2022? Or even just to Russians? There is no general article about Mystery deaths although there is a list about unusual deaths, which could also include all the cases listed. Consequently, this article needs to discuss the phenomenon of Russian mystery deaths and give a wider context or explanation to this phenomenon that avoids SPECULATION. Also, consider if the deaths of Alexander Litvinenko and Vladimir "Sausage King" Marugo meet the criteria for a mysterious death of a Russian, if the inclusion criteria were relaxed and not confined to businessmen or 2022. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Please feel free to add prose. It is not a list. The table is an overview. Feel free to unlink unwritten articles. I thought it's better to write this article first, as the persons may be most notable for their shared mysterious series of deaths. Many may be notable for other reasons, e.g. Watford was supposedly a billionaire, Subbotin a Eurasian_Economic_Commission minister, but it's difficult to find good sources. It is limited in time etc. because those characteristics suggest linkage, but it is difficult to avoid speculation in exact delineation criteria. 2022 may not be the best time frame; some sources suggest the start was the invasion of Ukraine, but that may be speculation. Removing the criteria completely would render the article pointless indeed. Yevgeny Palant may be another candidate to include, but I have not found good enough sources. Cgbuff (talk) 18:21, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Similar to List of Russian generals killed during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, I have added an analysis section where the deaths are discussed as a group. The list has its own usefulness as an overview, but it could be expanded further. I added a 'Place found dead' column, as this is commonly reported in the media as a significant factor. I think it may also be better to change the 'Date of death' column to 'Date found dead', because the person could have died days before being found. This seems to be the cause of discrepancies in reported dates. I think 'Date found dead' will be less controversial and more easily verifiable than 'Date of death'. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I added a 'Circumstances' column next to the 'Place found dead' column, and renamed the 'Notes' column to 'Position'. Perhaps we should move that Position column further to the left as the second column after 'Name'; that seems to be a logical order of presenting the data. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Anatoly Chubais

Some sources also connect these to Anatoly Chubais' recent hospitalization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgbuff (talk • contribs) 17:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Alexey Ogarev

Alexey Ogarev (and Anatoly Chubais and Yevgeny Palant) are included in the list in this article. Cgbuff (talk) 17:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: which of these individuals had given public statements against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes! there should be a new column in the table that indicates if the victim was/was not critical of Putin/Russian Gov/Ukraine war. I think this is extremely valid. 188.30.153.188 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

List of mystery deaths allegedly by the Putin regime

Would it be possible to make a list for the entire time period of the Putin regime? The scope would require a source that speculated the death was caused by the regime or its fellows. It would not include routine deaths such as the many people who simply disappear in Russia. The victims don't need to be notable by Wikipedia standards but at least someone who was "important" such as professionals (business, law, finance) or otherwise associated with the regime. -- GreenC 03:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I think this would violate WP:RUMOUR and perhaps also WP:INDISCRIMINATE. 'The Putin regime' is an ill-defined concept and may be POV. Who belongs to this 'regime'? Anyone on the Russian govt's payroll? Or does it also include the clique of businessmen/oligarchs around Putin from private businesses? You seem to include them with the words '[the regime or] its fellows', but that means including a large grey area which will be difficult for Wikipedia to demarcate. The 'Putin regime' concept does not seem to take into account many scenarios, e.g. that hitmen hired by such oligarchs could be assassinating their business competitors without govt interference/involvement, for example. Do we blame Putin for such cases? I don't think that would make much sense. Both victim and perpetrator could be part of Putin's cronies without Putin being involved. I think it's important to limit our scope to specific sets of people that are discussed as a group in RS, in this case 'billionaire/millionaire Russian businessmen with direct or indirect Kremlin connections dying under mysterious or suspicious circumstances in 2022' (to summarise NOS and CNN Portugal's descriptions). The proposed list risks becoming a catch-all box for endless speculation about anyone, so I don't think it's a good idea. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

We already have List of Soviet and Russian assassinations, which is more indiscriminate than this list would be given the time scale, but it says at the top: "This list does not include suspected assassinations of political opponents who died in mysterious circumstances". That's the list I'm thinking of, roughly. -- GreenC 06:07, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

The fact that it only deals with confirmed cases is why that list rather has a much more limited scope (and therefore more legitimacy) than your proposed list, because confirmation can lead to a single conclusion supported by RS. Speculation will remain speculation, so unless there is a reason to suspect a pattern, such as in the case of Russian businessmen which are discussed as a group in RS, I don't think such a list is warranted. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

There is reason to suspect a pattern when critics of Russia keep showing up dead in mysterious and suspicious circumstances. As Bill Browder says "Whenever someone who is in a negative view of the Putin regime dies suspiciously, one should rule out foul play, not rule it in." It's standard knowledge the regime and it's fellow travelers make people go away they operate like organized crime. It's not like these 2022 deaths are surprising to anyone who has followed Russia for any length of time. -- GreenC 02:15, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

We may indeed think that the number of alleged 'suicides' or 'fatal accidents' amongst known or possible Putin critics defies probability, but we must be careful to observe WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Note that in some of these cases, the dead businessmen are not known Putin critics, e.g. Avayev's former colleague Volobuyev explicity said he was not sure why Avayev (along with his family) was probably murdered: "Why? That is difficult to say. Perhaps he knew something and posed some kind of danger." If he had said something like: "We knew this was coming any day now, because Avayev had been a staunch unapologetic critic of Putin's policies for years; I tried to warn him but he wouldn't listen", then it would arguably be clear, but that is not the case. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The quote from Browder and other sources confirm this is a general topic discussed. It's not hard to find sources saying certain deaths are suspicious, or that speak to Russian deaths in general being suspicious. Thus, the title of the list might include "suspiciously" similar to List of people who disappeared mysteriously has "mysteriously". Maybe it would be List of individuals associated with Russia who died suspiciously 2000-present. -- GreenC 16:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm still not convinced. You could try it per WP:BOLD, but for the reasons I've given above, I am afraid that this list will not be kept. I hope you think about it carefully, because you could be wasting your time on an article that will get deleted because it doesn't comply to Wikipedia's policies. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:15, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be possible to make this list, based on reliable sources. If there are multiple media sources publishing lists of suspicious deaths, with analysis, and there is general agreement/overlap, then it would fit within Wikipedia's standards, right? Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 06:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

• Wilson, Jeremy (December 2022). "Here's a list of Putin critics who've ended up dead". Business Insider. Retrieved December 27, 2022.

New Reliable Sources

• https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/01/lukoil-chairman-ravil-maganov-is-the-8th-russian-energy-executive-to-die-suddenly-this-year.html
• https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/business/ravil-maganov-russia-lukoil-dies.html
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/1/lukoil-russian-oil-firm-chief-dies-after-serious-illness

Cgbuff (talk) 18:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/03/accidental-defenestration-and-murder-suicides-too-common-among-russian-oligarchs-and-putin also mentions the deaths of:

• Kirill Zhalo: an undercover FSB officer who fell from a window of the Russian embassy in Berlin in October 2021, "identify the man as Kirill Zhalo, the son of General Alexey Zhalo, deputy director of the FSB's Second Service, responsible for dealing with internal political threats for the Kremlin."
• Yegor Prosvirnin: "a vocal critic of Putin", "after falling out of a window" in December 2021.
• Sergei Tkachenko: Rapoport business partner, "also fell to his death from his Moscow apartment" in 2017.
• "During the COVID-19 pandemic, at least four health care workers have fallen out of windows in Russia"
• "At least three incidents of doctors self-defenestrating from hospital windows took place over a two-week period between April and May 2020"
• Alexander Kagansky: "In December 2020, a top Russian scientist developing a novel COVID-19 vaccine, Alexander Kagansky, was found dead after falling from his high-rise apartment in St Petersburg."

But they don't quite seem to fit the criteria here.

Cgbuff (talk) 08:40, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, but no, they don't fit the criteria. The fact that they died before 2022 alone is enough to exclude them, and most of them aren't businessmen with close connections to the Kremlin anyway. We must be mindful of whether individuals are discussed as part of this group or not. CNN Portugal referred to earlier research by USA Today about Russian businessmen dying under mysterious or suspicious circumstances, that is relevant to mention in this context. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Cause of death?

Multiple times in these cases the cause of death has been declared to be suicide by defenestration. Considering the prevalence of defenestration is pretty low (<10%) it might be interesting to add the cause of death as a useful information in this sheet. 2001:861:5A83:79D0:C13B:7B12:6EDF:47 (talk) 06:45, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The cause of death is exactly what is in question. All we can do as Wikipedians is list the circumstances in which these people were found dead, and in the analysis refer to RS that hypothesise what may have happened. We may indeed think that the number of fatal defenestrations defies probability, but we must be careful to observe WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Ivan Pechorin

Should Ivan Pechorin be added? He was the Managing Director of the Far East and Arctic Development Corporation. He died September 10th, 2022, after falling from a boat in the Sea of Japan near Russky Island. Ron Foster (talk) 04:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

https://www.newsweek.com/putins-key-man-artic-found-dead-after-falling-overboard-1742218 I found this article, maybe we can cite or something. Redoct87 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

It should be added. Headlines like: "Another Putin crony dies in mystery plunge after ‘falling from boat’ in seventh suspicious Kremlin death in months" -- GreenC 13:20, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Nikolay Petrunin

Is this death mysterious? -- GreenC 15:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Calculating mortality rate

Is there any method known to quantify the rate of elite suicide? I find it hard to judge the rank/importance of these guys. my gut feeling tells me its somewhere around 1-3% of Oligarchs. Or up to 100x more than should be normal. Just a guess though Gerdolfo (talk) 23:13, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Well the article refers to an investigation that found 38 suspicious oligarch deaths between 2014 and 2017, so an average of around 10 a year. 2022 has around 20 deaths listed in total. So as a very rough calculation, reported deaths are double the normal, but the sample size is very small and it's not clear if more are dying or those that are dying are being highlighted and reported more than previous years. It's worth noting that only 3 of the people who died in 2022 were noteworthy enough to have wikipedia articles, so I lean towards the latter. 31.52.117.117 (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Sergey Maslov

Judge; death reported by Pravda and TASS. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:57, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/top-russian-judge-sergey-maslov-killed-in-crimea-bridge-explosion-report

Honestly it just looks like bad luck. How could Putin involved in bombing the Crimea bridge with such perfect timing to take out a passing car? -- GreenC 00:21, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@GreenCWell, this article is about mystery deaths, right? We don't even know for sure who caused them, but we have a very strong suspicion. PhotographyEdits (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Well not every death is mysterious. Sometimes people actually do die without malice involved. In this case, I don't know of any source that considers it a mysterious death. -- GreenC 18:02, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Several deaths of wealthy Russian crypto millionaires

Russian billionaire Vyacheslav Taran died in a mysterious helicopter crash in sunny Monaco. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11480711/Russian-billionaire-53-killed-helicopter-crash-near-Monaco-latest-crypto-mystery-death.html

Russian millionaire Tiantian Kullander died unexpectedly in his sleep. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11476977/Cryptocurrency-founder-Tiantian-Kullander-dies-unexpectedly-aged-30.html

Russian millionaire Nikolai Mushegian died unexpectedly. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11412595/Paranoid-crypto-millionaire-Nikolai-Mushegian-drowns-Puerto-Rico.html

Who decides whether or not these deaths should be considered "mysterious"? It's almost as mysterious as the Russian billionaires who suddenly fell out a window... Manvswow (talk) 16:27, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Problem #1 is we can't use Daily Mail as a source. For Wikipedia purposes, anything published there has to be assumed to be factually wrong, until proven right somewhere reliable. However I don't disagree that 3 Russian crypto millionaire deaths in a week is pretty unusual. -- GreenC 16:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Would be nice if someone who is fluent in Russian could do a news search of quality Russian-language sources. Is there a Russian-language Wikipedia article about this topic or similar related events, that we could get content from, or ask for assistance? Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Re: Nikolai Mushegian - Nikolai was not Russian, was born in the US and lived all his life in the US, never in Russia. His name does not belong in the list, I am deleting it. Consutema (talk) 11:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

edit: I recommend deleting it Consutema (talk) 11:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Age at death

Would be useful to have this as a column after the deceased's name, if anyone has the time. Ericoides (talk) 18:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Alexey Maslov ?

What about this guy? Should he make it onto the list?

Second Russian Defense Sector Bigwig Dies in Two Days

"Alexei Maslov, a retired army general, was serving as a special representative of military-technical cooperation for Uralvagonzavod, Russia’s largest tank manufacturer, when he died 'unexpectedly' last Saturday, the company announced in a statement. No cause of death was given ... Maslov’s death came just a day after Alexander Buzakov, the director general of Admiralty Shipyards, died suddenly and 'tragically' from unknown causes." 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:24, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Rename the page?

Not all the people who died are businessmen, like for example Vladimir Nesterov was known for being an engineer and Alexey Maslov was a general. Not all the people who are mysteriously dying are going to be businessmen, a lot are also going to be law makers and people in the military. Should the title be renamed to something else removing the "businessmen"? Ardad (talk) 10:02, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree, but I am wondering what a better title would be. Perhaps 2022 Russian elite mystery deaths? UlyssorZebra (talk) 13:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Had this discussion above because it's not only businessmen, not only Russians, and not only 2022. Ever since Putin came into power, has been a steady stream of mysterious/suspicious deaths. I suggested List of individuals associated with Putin's Russia who died suspiciously. -- GreenC 15:28, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

We're gonna need a name change soon to broaden the scope of this article, or will likely have to start a new article for 2023. I somehow doubt the mysterious deaths will magically stop happening in the new year. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:15, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

How about: Mystery deaths of elites associated with Putin's Russia

This article title would exclude journalists, and others who aren't oligarchs, or politicians, or aren't involved/employed in Russia's military-industrial complex, so it wouldn't be a complete list, but perhaps just a slight expansion of the existing article we have here (and it would include elites of any nationality). I feel like that kind of definition fits with current reporting from media, who are lumping this class of elite deaths together into the "mysterious/suspicious deaths" category. Thoughts? 98.155.8.5 (talk) 07:04, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I would refrain from calling it Putin's Russia because it heavily implies that Putin ordered (all of) these deaths; that's far from certain. Perhaps 2022 mystery deaths of Russian elites? If 2023 would have similar deaths, we just rename it to 2022-2023 mystery deaths of Russian elites. UlyssorZebra (talk) 13:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Good point. I also just looked up "Putin's Russia" which resolves to a book, and found the Russia under Vladimir Putin article. First sentence of the lede makes it clear that "Putin's Russia" would possibly refer to a period of time from 1999/2000 - 2008, and then 2012 - present. So there is a somewhat confusing four year gap in there as well, if we are to invoke this idea of "Russia under Putin" in that manner. More specific date ranges (e.g. 2022-2023) in the article title makes sense, as you've pointed out. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 15:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Two years 2022-23 is pretty limited arbitrary coverage. Why those years only, is a natural question that arises. If the concern is "Putin's Russian" then List of suspicious deaths of elites associated with Russia 1999-present. If you say "Russian elites" right away some entries need to be removed because the people are not Russian elites, not even Russian eg. Dan Rapoport currently in the list, is not Russian. Also "mystery deaths" is a bit dramatic, we usually know how they died there is no mystery (eg. fell from building). Nor can we say for certain the circumstances are mysterious sometimes people just die of natural causes. More accurate the circumstances of their death appear suspicious. -- GreenC 15:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. Mellk (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, "suspicious deaths" is better than mystery deaths. With an article that has a date range like that (1999 - ?), we will need to write up some analysis to explain about the scope of the article, but there should be plenty of sources for that.

Just one question: if it's a "List of ..." article, that doesn't preclude further expansion of the article based on reliable sources right, it can go beyond just a list of suspicious deaths, correct? Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

One other thought, this page was originally created in context of the Ukraine war. If we choose to stick close to that timeframe, at least for now, it might be called Suspicious deaths of elites during the Russian invasion of Ukraine 2022-2023. Then later we can expand the scope 1999-present which is a much bigger change. The other advantage is it can include Ukrainian elite deaths (if any) which is more neutral. -- GreenC 21:55, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I will go ahead and make this change boldly because the years need to be changed and I think there is rough consensus based on previous discussion re: "suspicious, "elites", then we can re-eval later about the 1999-present time frame. -- GreenC 22:10, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

A few of the deaths included are still pre-invasion. Also not all of them are "elites" (do all RS call them members of the elite? Businessmen therefore would likely be more appropriate). It would be better to at least remove the pre-invasion deaths or just simply say 2022–2023 in the title. Mellk (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

They are "elite" in the sense the pres considered them notable enough to report about ie. business and government officials typically. The pre-invasion build-up can be included as part of the scope they are related, the earliest is less than a month from the invasion and follows the same pattern as the others post-invasion. -- GreenC 15:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I support the name change, but shouldn't infer a link to the Ukraine war. That would be OR. There's however a recent spike in deaths, or at least a spike in reported deaths, so including the years 2022-2023 seem a good idea. UlyssorZebra (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Just because media outlets considered them notable enough to report their death (or good enough for clicks) does not necessarily mean they are part of the elite. Which elite are we talking one, presumably Russian? Was Dan Rapoport part of this elite? Mellk (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Also including the invasion would be OR (a few deaths are pre-invasion) unless all the sources link them to the invasion. Mellk (talk) 10:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

So arbitrary years that happen to be the same as the Ukraine war (2022-2023) - why those years and not 1999-present? We're looking at deaths that occurred during the Ukraine war, what's wrong with that, we get to choose the time frame we want to focus on. Or must we include every suspicious death since the founding of Russia? There are no sources that define a time frame scope for this topic, it's a limitation of Wikipedia that we as editors need to define the scope we want to work on, Wikipedia actually contains a lot of OR, we choose what content to include (OR) scope of topics (OR), sources to include and exclude (OR), how to word things (OR) etc... and not every source needs to include the scope of the article/list -- GreenC 16:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Probably it can be expanded to include other years but if there has been a spike recently then I suppose that is why the article starts at 2022. Mellk (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

This is not a list, but an article about a matter that the cited sources discuss. IMO a name change would have to be argued based on usage in the cited sources. Sources about one individual death (instead of the supposed series of deaths) are almost off-topic. Cgbuff (talk) 19:35, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be called a list I agree. -- GreenC 21:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Really like the new page title. Thanks for the Bold move! Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose I do not like the new title.

• Per WP:NLIST, the only reason that this article can exist is because the items on this list are identified in reliable sources as members of a group. Our sources do not conclude it is necessarily always due to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine that these businessmen (and sometimes their relatives) are killed, or otherwise die suspiciously. As CNN Portugal pointed out, many other Russian businessmen died under suspicious circumstances in previous years. It may be that, at least in some cases, the rule of law in Russia is weak, and therefore businessmen settle their disputes with assassinations. It doesn't necessarily mean Putin is silencing every critical businessman who somehow refuses to cooperate with his regime, let alone his so-called "special military operation".
• Per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, this article must not become a catch-all for any sort of unsolved death in Russia or of a Russian person abroad, see my discussion with GreenC above.
• Per WP:PRECISE, 'elites' is too vague, our sources are strict about it being "Russian businessmen". Marine engineer Milyakov Sergey is not 'elite', nor a "businessman". He is just a Russian whose death has not yet been explained by police. Come on, folks, Wikipedia is not the place for unlimited endless baseless speculation that some Russian engineer dying in some town somewhere in India must have something to do with Ukraine.
• Per WP:OR, framing the deaths as necessarily having to do anything with Ukraine is not permitted. Some deaths occurred before 24 February 2022, so they didn't happen during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (which is still the title of that article). Moreover, it is unclear whether these deaths are even related to the invasion, or that some deaths might have happened anyway (such as Mikhail Watford).
• 'Suspicious deaths' is better than 'mystery deaths', but otherwise the title is worse in every way. I think the original title should be restored. The removal of 'marine engineer Milyakov Sergey' means that '2022' is still correct. Remember that each person needs to be a verifiable member of the group, otherwise they cannot be included. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• PS: Point of order. I do not think it was appropriate for GreenC to boldly move the title after knowing my objections to a previous suggestion for a move, as well as Mellk and other user's objections including those I have stated/repeated here. The new bold title is untenable and in violation of several core policies. I will move it back to the previous title until agreement has been reached on whether a move is even necessary or warranted. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  I don't even know what "previous objection to a move" you are talking about, and I barely even remember talking to you before, much less on the topic of a move. Whatever the case, you shouldn't assume bad faith. I'm trying to solve the problem with the title and scope, it is not to have a conflict with you personally.-- GreenC 01:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  See #List of mystery deaths allegedly by the Putin regime above on this same talk page. You and I have discussed a previous move proposal of yours in September 2022. I objected by bringing up several of the same policies back then which also apply here, such as WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:OR and WP:RS. Although I find it hard to believe, as the conversation can be read right here on this talk page, it could be you simply forgot about it and didn't understand what I meant by the previous suggestion for a move (which is human), in which case I understand you interpret this as assuming bad faith, for which I am sorry. I'm not interested in a personal conflict with you either, I was just surprised you appeared to be ignoring what I thought you and I had agreed upon earlier. Granted, this is a different move proposal, and not all the same policies apply here, but there are compelling reasons for not adopting the new title that you BOLDly moved it to, so I reverted it. I'm very much open to further suggestions for improvement. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  I don't support Nederlandse Leeuw's proposal. I think we should group the suspicious deaths, which reliable media have linked (which also means that there's no OR), and not arbitrarily exclude people because they don't fit the current descriptor of the group. Then we just need to find a better descriptor and rename the page accordingly. Reliable media are using a.o. the word "elites" so that could be a way forward. UlyssorZebra (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  Well, the only RS I have seen so far which uses the word 'elites' is Quinn's from The Daily Beast. I do not think this 1 source alone is enough to change the scope of the entire article, especially because 'elites' is a very vague descriptor (which could in fact open the door to arbitarily including people). Besides, there is no need to to change the descriptor when businessmen is still sufficient for new entries such as Maslov. What does Quinn write? Alexei Maslov, a retired army general, was serving as a special representative of military-technical cooperation for Uralvagonzavod, Russia’s largest tank manufacturer That means his (most) relevant Position on the list is not Former commander-in-chief of the Russian Ground Forces, but Uralvagonzavod special representative, which is arguably a businessman position and thus perfectly compatible with the current scope. There is no need to change or enlarge the scope when the current scope works. Moreover, because all the previous sources never used the word 'elites', there is a strong rationale against changing it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  You're wrong though. The current descriptor is not satisfactory. Igor Nosov and Ivan Pechorin were high-ranking civil servants, Vladimir Sungorkin was an editor-in-chief, Anatoly Gerashchenko was the former head of an engineering institute, and Alexei Maslov was mainly a former military man. UlyssorZebra (talk) 16:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. Many people have (had) multiple functions, but what matters is how reliable sources have grouped them.

  • The only source which mentions Nosov is Jankowicz's article in WP:BUSINESSINSIDER (whose reliability is in dispute), which says only The corporation also lost its CEO, 43-year-old Igor Nosov, who died of a stroke in February. No mention of him being a civil servant, he is framed as a corporation CEO, i.e. a businessman.
  • About Pechorin, the 3 source titles alone are clear enough; [20]: energy executive, [21]: businessman, [22]: energy boss.
  • Sungorkin is actually a good candidate for exclusion from the list (thanks for bringing it up), because he was indeed not a businessman but an editor-in-chief, thus a journalist. The newspaper's owner Grigory Berezkin could be considered a businessman, but not Sungorkin. Yahoo framed him as another top Putin ally, which cannot necessarily be said about all other members of the group, certainly not those who have been labelled Putin critics. I would therefore propose to move Sungorkin to List of journalists killed in Russia#2022, next to Darya Dugina (see also #Dugin's daughter below).
  • Gerashchenko is another candidate for exclusion from the list, because he does not appear to be a businessman. Source 24, EuroWeekly News, doesn't really make an attempt to link him to the wider group of suspicious businessmen deaths, apart from casually mentioning two other recent deaths of Lukoil Deputy Chairman Ravil Maganov and Yury Voronov, a top Russian businessman with connections to Russian oil company Gazprom (adding Yury Voronov was the CEO of the Astra Shipping transport company). So apart from timing, being Russian, and having a suspicious death just like Maganov and Voronov, nothing EuroWeekly News says puts Gerashchenko in the same group as them or the other businessmen, it's mere juxtaposition. The Dan Ladden-Hall Daily Beast source and the same Jankowicz WP:BUSINESSINSIDER source as Nosov do attempt to group Gerashchenko with other deaths, but these connections remain vague: prominent Russians, top Russian figures, Russian officials, and finally, highly-placed Russian figures in the Kremlin's orbit, particularly those connected to the technology and energy sectors. Words such as figures say nothing, words such as prominent, highly-placed, top are arguable, but officials is a new one which doesn't fit the group we're talking about well, as all other examples mentioned by Jankowicz are better (or also) grouped as businessmen, because they ran private or semi-private companies. Gerashchenko did not; he was a scientist, the former rector of a public educational institution, and recently held the position of rector's adviser. I think it's too much of a stretch to label Gerashchenko a businessman, let alone that his death is a good excuse to rashly expand the scope of the group and thus the list.
  • The assertion that Alexei Maslov was mainly a former military man seems to be purely your POV. He may be best-known for his military service by the public, but Quinn connects his death to a last-minute-cancelled scheduled Putin visit to the Uralvagonzavod tank factory that Maslov was the special representative of military-technical cooperation of, framing him as the second bigwig in the country’s military industrial complex to die in just two days, and connecting him to Alexander Buzakov, the CEO of Admiralty Shipyards, who had never been a military man, but always in the naval industry, i.e., a businessman. Therefore, our source Quinn offers no reasons to expand the scope to (former) military officials just because Maslov had been one 14 years before he died, but instead reinforces the established Russian businessmen scope through his connection with fellow military-industrial businessman Buzakov.

  Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:51, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  Yes I don't think "elites" is the best word here unless there are citations for each person that calls them "elite" (also a bit vague) but it is not the case. Either way there will need to be removals. Mellk (talk) 18:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  I and others disagree, so there's no consensus to remove content. I think there's a valid need to include deaths which are linked or mentioned together in reliable media, whether they are businessmen or not. I think there's also a valid concern about creating a too broad or vague category. The solution is not removing relevant content, but finding the right article title. UlyssorZebra (talk) 23:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

  Concur with what has been said here by UlyssorZebra. Removing content is not the answer. I think we need a proper RfC to decide on a new title and scope for the article. Please see my post below about RfC possibilities. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 10:27, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Dugin's daughter

Doesn't the killing of Darya Dugina belong on this list? In my view, it does. Afaik, this is also a high profile case and there's speculation in reliable media that this attack might have been politically motivated (instead of one planned by Ukraine), just as there is speculation about political motives around the other deaths. It's not yet clear who and for what reason planned this attack, and whether she or her father or both were the intended targets, so there's in any case a mystery around her death. I do agree it's different from the other deaths as there's no ambiguity that there was an attack. Interested in what other people think. UlyssorZebra (talk) 13:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Was she a "Russian businessman"? If not, no. If yes, is she mentioned in reliable sources as amongst the group of Russian businessmen who died under suspicious circumstances? If not, no ('your view' is not a reliable source). If yes, then yes, you can include her. But I don't think anyone has made this connection, it is treated as a separate case. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

It's unclear this is a standalone list and thus if WP:NLIST even applies. Also, sources with a list criteria include "Putin critics", "Gazprom execs", "Oligarch deaths" .. are you saying we need three separate articles one for each? Another problem is when someone said above why don't we include the source "A list of oligarchs and Putin critics found dead since Ukraine war" you objected because the source doesn't fit the current title! As if the title on Wikipedia is more important than what the source itself says - that is a contradiction . If list criteria can be found in RS than why don't use them? Why does one list criteria take precedent over another when both have RS to back them up. -- GreenC 02:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

If it's not a list, why is it in the Category:Lists of deaths in 2022? Why is it "Rated List-class" in all 4 WikiProjects on this talk page? Apart from the Analysis section that gives a very basic background, all this page is, is a list.

The terms "Gazprom execs" and "Oligarch deaths" are compatible with Russian businessmen, and both those articles limit themselves to people who died since the start of 2022 (specifically, 30 January 2022), and do not go further back. The Warsaw Institute has clearly limit its scope: Four recent suicides of high-profile Russian gas industry executives seem somewhat suspicious, mentioning At the end of January of this year, the head of the Gazprom Invest transport service, Leonid Shulman, was found dead in the bathroom of his house as the first example, consistent with all our other RS which have identified this group. Newsweek also clearly begins its list at the start of 2022 and limits itself to Russian businessmen: But the cases have raised questions as they are the latest Russian oligarchs found dead in mysterious circumstances since the start of the year.

The "Putin critics" list of BusinessInsider is the odd one out: it mentions 9 persons (mostly journalists and politicians, not businessmen) who died before 2022, all the way back to 2003, and doesn't mention any of the four [suspicious Gazprom execs] suicides of the Warsaw Institute, Newsweek or the many other RS in this article; so, it deals with a different group of people than we're talking about, namely, Russian businessmen that died under suspicious circumstances since the start of 2022. For journalists, a more appropriate place for inclusion is the List of journalists killed in Russia, noting that there needs to be pretty solid evidence that they were killed and not that their deaths were just suspicious. For politicians such as Boris Nemtsov, it would be more appropriate to create a List of politicians killed in Russia, with the same proviso that their deaths need to be RS-verifiable "killings".

As for Darya Dugina, she was a (pro-Kremlin) journalist, and arguably a 'politician', killed in Russia, so she would certainly fit the killed journalists list and maybe the killed politicians list. But I don't think she fits the Russian businessmen group, because she wasn't a "businesswoman". Aside from calling herself an ordinary journalist, her bio states she worked as a journalist, a political commentator, a press secretary of her father, and as the chief editor of a disinformation website called United World International which states it is owned by Putin ally Yevgeny Prigozhin. As for 'politician', she was educated as a political scientist, and her activities have been widely interpreted as being a political commentator, political activist and Russian propagandist, but she never held any legislative or executive political power, so 'politician' might still be too much of a stretch. (All these things can be found in her bio and its categories). Her boss Prigozhin is no doubt a "businessman", but Dugina wasn't a "businesswoman". Therefore, she doesn't belong on this list. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Well I find splitting this up by occupation into separate page topics is kind of ridiculous, you end up with these situations where things don't fit, exactly, and you end up having to delete entries. The group topic is not occupation rather notable people associated with Russia who died suspiciously. If there is a preexisting article such as journalists that is lengthy and well developed, sure put it there, otherwise this is the catch-all for everything else. I understand what your trying to do but it's convoluted and doesn't produce good results. If there are enough entries for a standalone article at some point it might be split off, like the journalists. This is how Wikipedia normally works you start with a broad topic and create sub-articles of more specific topics when there is enough content to justify it. -- GreenC 06:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

100% agree with GreenC's position on this. We shouldn't divide this article up when it already has a cohesive (if imperfect) concept. Let's work on a more fitting name to help define/explain the scope better, in a way that most of us can agree on. See my post below about brainstorming for a possible RfC. Once we've got some community input on possibilities for going forward, then we can start up a proper RfC to really hammer this all out and come to a more definitive consensus. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

GreenC: you end up with these situations where things don't fit, exactly, and you end up having to delete entries. That is how Wikipedia works per WP:LISTCRITERIA: Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources.

GreenC: The group topic is not occupation rather notable people associated with Russia who died suspiciously. Unfortunately I will have to disagree, because when the first reliable sources on this phenomenon emerged, they had a very specific scope for the group of people by occupation and by time period, namely Russian businessmen suspiciously dying since the beginning of 2022. Although some sources in late 2022 made some questionable attempts to broaden the scope beyond just businessmen (alternatively oligarchs, gas/energy bosses/CEOs/executives/execs), by using vague terms such as elites, prominent Russians, top Russian figures, Russian officials, highly-placed Russian figures in the Kremlin's orbit, these are simply not unambiguous selection criteria. Moreover, some of these sources seem to use both terms such as (top) Putin allies AND Putin critics as a way to describe the same group of people who have suspiciously died, even though these terms are pretty much opposites and arguably mutually exclusive.

Such vague descriptions are not compatible with WP:LISTCRITERIA: Avoid original or arbitrary criteria that would synthesize a list that is not plainly verifiable in reliable sources. There was only 1 source so far which used the word elites, and if we switched the topic of the entire list to "elites", then suddenly all other sources would WP:FAIL verification because they don't mention that or a similar word (and violate WP:SYNTH), or the membership of people will probably become subjective or likely to be disputed (another situation to be avoided per WP:LISTCRITERIA).

98.155.8.5: We shouldn't divide this article up when it already has a cohesive (if imperfect) concept. I agree, but for that to work, it has to maintain a cohesive concept instead of changing it to a much vaguer-concept that cannot be supported by the reliable sources the article was built on in the first place. I maintain this cohesive concept is Russian businessmen suspiciously dying since the beginning of 2022, and we should stick to it. Items that do not fit this concept should not be included. In the case of Darya Dugina, it was already included in the List of journalists killed in Russia (rightly so), and shouldn't be included here. GreenC agrees with this by saying otherwise this is the catch-all for everything else. 98.155.8.5 is right there is no need to divide a list if the items on the list have been included for good reasons from the beginning, and there is no need to remove items from the list if they were never included in it in the first place for good reasons. But suppose that we do want to include items such as politicians in some other list if they do not fit into this one, we could split off (as GreenC and I have more or less both suggested) a list of politicians killed in Russia to include various people who would not fit the businessman nor the journalist description (especially those who died before 2022). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC about a new article name & scope of content?

Hey everyone, there seems to be a lot of discussion and strong opinions about all of this, and I think it would be best to go forward with a proper RfC to figure this out, and seek further input from others. Removing content or debating about terminology really isn't going to get us anywhere unless we have a mechanism in place for an actual decision to be made. I don't see the informal back and forth above as leading us towards consensus.

So I've started this thread to discuss the RfC proposal itself (this is not the RfC!), in order to hash out some different choices.

Folks can list their proposed article title names here along with reasoning about the scope (how narrow or broad we should be in terms of content inclusion). Then we can take the top handful of choices and best options from this thread, and move on to the official RfC format.

How does that sound? Thanks everyone. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

First thing is make a list of the sources available that show a group topic. We have some here already and I know there are more that need to be googled. They all differ in chronology and subject but that's OK we only need to document what the RS actually say and I think it will be clear to the RfC participants we need a broader scope. The more sources the better, I have seen others before but didn't copy the links. -- GreenC 15:24, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The list of sources that show a group topic matters most, agree. Would it make sense to just wait a bit and see what newer sources make of the group topic, especially regarding the time period?

A Ukrainian war connection seems not sufficiently established.

"Suspicious" and "mysterious" seems largely equivalent to me, though more sources seem to go for mystery.

"Businesspeople" would surely be an acceptable broadening. Other than that I think the scope should not be broadened without multiple reliable sources clearly establishing a new group topic. Cgbuff (talk) 21:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

If most sources start referring to the "sudden Russian death syndrome" perhaps that should become the new article title. Cgbuff (talk) 22:27, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support the proposal for an RfC. I think it's important to reach agreements on the criteria, and that these criteria are based on our WP:PG. 98.155.8.5 seems correct that it is difficult to build consensus on this talk page (even though I believe everyone here is acting in good faith and trying to do things right), so community input through an RfC may be a valuable option to help reach agreements on the criteria. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
• Question Although I maintain that the topic of this list is Russian businessmen suspiciously dying since the beginning of 2022, and should stay that way, I am open to a change of scope along the lines of List of journalists killed in Russia, that is, List of businessmen killed in Russia (or List of businesspeople killed in Russia, because not all of them were men). It comes with pros and cons. One reason why I do think there is merit to this, however, is the fact that CNN Portugal compared the group of Russian businessmen dying under suspicious circumstances since early 2022 to a previous investigation by USA Today, which concluded that "38 Russian businessmen and oligarchs close to the Kremlin died in mysterious or suspicious circumstances between 2014 and 2017." There are reasons found in reliable sources like that for expanding the scope before 2022. This would have significant implications for the entire article, namely:

1. It would remove the historical criteria of having happened since the beginning of 2022 (and lose its apparent but not always explicition connect to the 2022 Russian invasion in Ukraine, because the first suspicious Russian businessman death occurred before it on 30 January 2022, but the others after), so every businessperson in history who was ever killed on Russian territory could then be included.
2. It would exclude deaths occurring outside Russia, so that many people on the current list will have to be removed. (That has all sorts of downsides to it, and eliminates the apparent international-Russian dimension of the 2022 phenomenon).
3. Instead of remaining 'suspicious', the default position taken by Wikipedia would switch to the assumption that the death was neither natural nor suicide, but intentional and inflicted by someone else. This is the case with List of journalists killed in Russia, where even in cases where the death remains "officially" unsolved, reliable sources concluded that it was probably a killing (whether assassination, murder or manslaughter). This will require a very, very strict application of our policies so as to not make questionable claims about events that have not yet (at least "officially") been resolved. Suspicious deaths about which is not much more known than speculation will be excluded more easily than they are from the current list. Alternatively, we could maintain a more loose title such as List of suspicious businesspeople deaths in Russia, based on sources such as USA Today, if we do not want Wikipedia to make the default assumption that the death was intentionally inflicted by others without having good evidence for it. Whichever one we choose, Wikipedia shouldn't be in the business of speculation per WP:CRYSTAL that 'someday surely evidence will be found to confirm that businessman X was indeed intentionally killed'. I hope we can avoid those kinds of insinuations based on the way we organise and present the information, incomplete as it is, to our readers.

As I said, this is currently not my preferred option, but I would be interested to see what other users think about it. It is an alternate way of organising our information along a more well-established pattern in another type of lists by occupation. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Vice article

• Makuch, Bern (February 9, 2023). "Russian Assassinations a Growing Worry as War Nears Second Year: Sources". Vice News. Retrieved February 9, 2023..

• The DOJ added that it is noticing a rise in government sponsored assassinations emanating from belligerent regimes abroad, including Russia.
• "We face an alarming rise in plots emanating from Iran, China, Russia, and elsewhere, targeting people in the United States, often using criminal proxies and cutouts"

GreenC 03:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced paragraph in french ?

Hi there. There seems to be a small part in french at the bottom of the page, that should probably be removed. 2A01:E0A:34C:48B0:3D7F:DBD:66D4:D74 (talk) 09:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Has been removed. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. (closed by non-admin page mover) PhotographyEdits (talk) 15:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Suspicious deaths of Russian businesspeople (2022–2023) → List of suspicious deaths of notable Russians (2022-2023) – ? – This is a list article and should be named accordingly. It also includes some millitary people, so the scope should be changed. PhotographyEdits (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that now it has not only buisnesspeople listed, but other Russians too, like (former) military. Smeagol 17 (talk) 09:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Smeagol 17 Hmm I see. That would make the title quite long and complex. How about "List of suspicious deaths of high ranking Russians (2022-2023)"? PhotographyEdits (talk) 10:02, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Why not. But "high ranking" is a bit vague and discussable, how about "notable"? This would be self-evident by their mention in RSs, and no need to search for their inclusion in some RSs "high-ranking russian list" or something. Smeagol 17 (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Smeagol 17 Hmm, good point, but not sure if I agree. Not all are notable by the standards of Wikipedia, but notable does not necessarily mean the Wikipedia definition of the term. But I do like the title of "List of suspicious deaths of notable Russians (2022-2023)" though. PhotographyEdits (talk) 11:02, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

"Russian elites" is another way, but they are not all Russians, either. The scope of this article has been highly contested by one user see above attempts to resolve it have gone nowhere. You'll need to gather a large majority to overrule this user because they have quite determined and make strong arguments. It's a complex problem. -- GreenC 13:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@GreenC I missed that. I will close this MR. PhotographyEdits (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attempted poisonings

Should the attempted poisonings of Ramzan Kadyrov, one of his top generals Apti Alaudinov and Roman Abramovich (during the peace talks last march) be included here? They all received coverage in mainstream sources. --jonas (talk) 11:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

"Russian mystery deaths" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Russian mystery deaths has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 2 § Russian mystery deaths until a consensus is reached. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:11, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Kristina Baikova

Two points. There is no Russian name 'Kristina'. The korrect spelling is Khristina or Khrystina. The 'kh' letter is not a K and not particularly similar. My spelling error earlier is deliberate, as it highlights a trivial error in English, which would not be trivial in Pussian.

Secondly; there is a video available of this poor woman's demise. She is very clearly involved in final negotiations with a friend before either falling accidentally or choosing to end her own life. Misuing this tragic event for political purposes is disgusting. 122.150.92.52 (talk) 02:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Igor Kudryakov

His death at the apartment in Moscow was recently reported by The sun agency. I publish link there because I couldn't add it to the page myself:

RIPgenie (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Official (non-suspicious) cause of death

It might be a good idea to add a column for the official and/or non-suspicious cause of death. Everyone in this list died of something non-suspicious, otherwise it wouldn't be considered suspicious ie. different from the official story. Like if the official cause of death was "assassination by Putin", it wouldn't be suspicious. For example the latest is Igor Kudryakov who reportedly had cancer. Our article doesn't mention cancer anywhere. -- GreenC 04:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Non-businessmen suspicious deaths

• Wilson, Jeremy (August 23, 2023). "These are the prominent critics and enemies Putin is suspected of having killed". Business Insider – via Yahoo! News.
• "Putin foes who have suffered mysterious fates". Reuters. August 23, 2023 – via Yahoo! News.
• "Poisoned. Fell out of a window. Died suddenly: The Russians killed in unusual circumstances". Yahoo! News. August 24, 2023.
• Adler, Ben (August 24, 2023). "Yevgeny Prigozhin is just the latest: A list of Putin's dead critics". Yahoo! News.
• Litvinova, Dasha (August 25, 2023). "Nerve agents, poison and window falls. Over the years, Kremlin foes have been attacked or killed". Associated Press – via Yahoo! News.

-- GreenC 19:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2023

In the Row of Gennady Lopyrev it shoud state "Died" not "DIed". 2003:E7:9746:98A9:781C:1FF1:B807:9DC7 (talk) 20:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 21:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"Prigozhin fell out of the window of the plane"

This is a joke phrase, right? 128.131.198.11 (talk) 10:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. -- GreenC 14:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Sortable table

The sortable table is nice, although it's utility is greatly reduced because we break the table up into yearly sections. Sorting is at its best when all the elements are in a single table. For example, show everyone under age 30? This is easy with a single table, but awkward with two (or more) tables. Thus, breaking up sortable tables is a necessary evil. Since these tables are not very large, I recommend 1 table for every 10 years or so. -- GreenC 16:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Heading isn't broad enough

probably should be "business people and prominent bureaucrats" OliviaMR (talk) 04:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree we need a change, but don't agree with your title. Perhaps just "Suspicious deaths of prominent Russians (2022-2023)". Not everyone is a business person nor a bureaucrat. For example, Vladimir Sungorkin was an editor/journalist, Nikolay Petrunin, Alexei Maslov, Magomed Abdulaev and Vladimir Makei were politicians, Artyom Bartenev was a judge and Andrei Fomin a prosecutor, etc. UlyssorZebra (talk) 07:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Vitaly Melnikov

• Glenn, Mike (August 31, 2023). "Top Russian space scientist dies of mushroom poisoning". Washington Times.

Should be added? Cgbuff (talk) 21:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Pavel Antov

"Russian sausage tycoon who criticised Ukraine invasion falls to death from hotel window. Pavel Antov, a member of Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party, is found lying in a pool of blood outside a luxury hotel in India" - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/12/27/russian-magnate-pavel-antov-dies-window-fall-india/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liotier (talk • contribs) 06:20, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2023

Please delete the entry for Nikolai Mushegian. Nikolai was not ethnically Russian, not a Russian citizen, not a Russian resident nor "Russian businessman" in any sense. He was born in the US, lived all his life in the US, and worked in the US. His name does not belong in the list. Consutema (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Seawolf35 (talk - email) 02:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources supporting a notion that Nikolai was Russian, or that he was a Russian businessman in any sense - because he was neither. Thus, he should not have been included into the list in the first place if the "reliable sources" criterion was to be applied then.

As for Nikolai's growing up in the US:

High school https://www.cjonline.com/story/news/education/2010/04/06/two-students-to-be-honored/16502112007/

College and the rest of the career:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikolai-mushegian-a8276423/ Consutema (talk) 14:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done I've removed this from the list as sources indeed are not sufficient for him to be mentioned here. This isn't a list of every wealthy person with a Russian-sounding name who has died recently. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:12, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Many additional recent suspicious deaths

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yORd_Q2NmL4

See you tube link above. 79.78.231.42 (talk) 09:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Vladimir Egorov

Reported by Russian State Media that he was found dead after falling out a third floor window. He's a member of Putin's ruling United Russia party.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/world/article283590933.html

27/12/2023 SaltedCustardBun (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Too broad list, needs revision

All this article is pretty dragged in by the head and shoulders. There are thousands or hundreds of thousands of people who are in the same position of power as those that are listed here. It seems any death among them that had been reported in news was put into this list.

Besides this, the criterion of suspiciousness is ill-defined and very broad, e.g. ‘Died suddenly’ - should we add all heart attacks, accidents etc. to this list? They inevitably happen since there are way too many people that can be considered as ‘Putin’s elite’ and they die here and there.

It seems the list should be less vast and more focused on real strange cases, otherwise it depreciates it’s meaning. 188.143.240.42 (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Change the date in the title to 2024

A simple uncontroversial update. Would do myself but I am not 30/500. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.6.78.22 (talk) 15:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Moved. Thanks, Prolog (talk) 08:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 February 2024

Addition of the death of Alexei Navalny, on the 16th February 2024. A prominent opposer of Vladimir Putin, the body of Alexei Navalny was found dead after a walk at the 'polar wolf' artic penal colony where he was serving a long jail term.

link: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/jailed-russian-opposition-leader-navalny-dead-prison-service-2024-02-16/ 46.11.175.214 (talk) 14:54, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Reported everywhere by now, should definitely be added here. Some sources:

References

188.69.3.187 (talk) 10:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The death now confirmed by Navalny's team and family:

References

188.69.3.187 (talk) 13:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Not really within the list's scope, and already mentioned in the "see also" section. Elli (talk | contribs) 21:33, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2024

Add under 2024 that Alexei Navalny has died on 16th Feb 2024 while in prison. ZeMonsterWiz (talk) 05:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 18:28, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

Change the title from "Suspicious deaths of Russian businesspeople" to "Suspicious deaths of Russian elites" as the people that have now suspiciously died are not only businesspeople. The list now also includes politicians, military generals, media/mews people, etc. Blackpinkaaaa2791 (talk) 00:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

..and they are not all Russians. And the list arbitrarily chooses 2022 as the start point for no apparent reason. And they are not all elites. And it says "-2024" instead of "-present". And.. so on. It needs a lot more discussion than an edit request can solve. -- GreenC 02:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2024

Vitaly Robertus, 54, Vice President of the Russian oil and gas firm Lukoil, has been found dead. He is the fourth Lukoil top manager to die since the beginning of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

Details: "We are deeply saddened to announce that Vitaly Vladimirovich Robertus, Vice President of the company, died suddenly at the age of 54," the press release reads.

Robertus’s death was the fourth among Lukoil’s top managers in the last two years.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/13/7446342/

Lukoil’s press release (in Russian): https://lukoil.ru/PressCenter/Pressreleases/Pressrelease/soobshchenie-pao-lukoil_1 Human Transistor (talk) 05:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Added him. Alin2808 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2024 (2)

Mechalisa (talk) 11:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

In the last table, 2024 deaths |- |Vitaly Robertus |35 |Vice President at Lukoil |13 March 2024 |1 | Moscow |Died suddenly with no further explanation. |}

Added. Alin2808 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 March 2024 (3)

Can Vitali Robertus be added?

Vitali Robertus, see here and here 82.174.61.58 (talk) 14:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Alin2808 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Nikolay Mukkonen

On April 1, 2024, businessman Nikolay Mukkonen (40 years old) suddenly died during football training https://gubdaily.ru/news/izvestnyj-biznesmen-vnezapno-umer-na-trenirovke-v-petrozavodske/ Tibarr (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Egor Prosvirnin

See the mentioned article. 82.162.185.113 (talk) 08:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 July 2024

I strongly believe that the following sentence

The phenomenon has been called "sudden Russian death syndrome" or "sudden oligarch death syndrome", a play on sudden arrhythmic death syndrome.

should be amended to read

The phenomenon has been called "sudden Russian death syndrome" or "sudden oligarch death syndrome", a play on sudden infant death syndrome.

Nowhere in the referenced article is the former condition actually mentioned, and the general public, as evidenced by Google Trends, does not really seem know or care much about that in comparison to what I am suggesting.

The current choice therefore appears to be completely unfounded and furthermore confusing to the readers, if not actually misleading (as a claim on the origin of the phrase), since there does not seem to be any evidence to support the origin claim, that the play is, in fact, on the fairly obscure rather than the quite infamous of the two medical conditions.

Unless there actually is evidence in favor of the current interpretation, in which case the article should be amended to add the missing reference to the supporting evidence instead. It should have already been there all along.

You are very welcome to try and prove me wrong. — Nameless Undead (talk) 23:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, referencing SIDS in the context makes additional sense, having a connotation of decidedly grim humor, since the dictator's "alleged" victims, despite all their illusory wealth and power, are just as vulnerable and helpless in the face of these cleanup operations by the RF state agencies, as newborns are to, well, practically everything. Nameless Undead (talk) 23:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

References

The "arrhythmic" source was in the following sentence. Made more clear. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@U-D13: Did you mean to re-open this? Your edit summary is vague Hyphenation Expert (talk) 00:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, between the god-awful lag of this GUI and not being able to churn out the text, evidently, in a pace fast enough using an on-screen keyboard on a laptop, the change I actually had intended to make somehow got lost between the updates of this talk page; I only noticed that instead of publishing my changes I was presented with a diff with the marking of my edit request as fulfilled, with no reason I could discern at that time. Sorry for the confusion. — Nameless Undead (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No problem. Yes, your ref below was the one added to support SADS. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 00:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Right, which was why I was saying it is no evidence for the origin, which happened long before it. (Also, just figured out where did my changes from earlier disappear, as I just hit an edit conflict, as it turns out, again) Nameless Undead (talk) 01:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The could be evidence for the origin of "arrhythmic", had been published at around the time of the Atlantic article, which originated the phrase (and was already speculated about in revision 1154902979). But it came well after that. Nameless Undead (talk) 00:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

References

To be very explicit, "came well after that" means it is precluded from the role as evidence for causation. My edit request calling for viable evidence or the removal of a weakly substantiated claim still stands. Nameless Undead (talk) 01:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Something can be confirmed after-the-fact. Archaeology comes to mind. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The fact alone that a thing can be purported to be evidence does not immediately make it so. I ain't no Archeology expert egg-head, but, as far 's me knows, ya gotsta establish that sweet, sweet evidentiary relationship. Same goes for the law and a crapton of other disciplines. Here, the phrases "sudden Russian death syndrome" and "sudden oligarch death syndrome" were being used (or, at least, searched for) well before the publishing of either of the above-referenced articles, if Google Trends can be believed. Show me the evidence for their origin being SADS (not just a Brit making an unsubstantiated claim in an article months after speculations about those origins have already been brought up) and I shall crawl back into where I shambled here from. Or am I just being too much of an obnoxious pedant? Nameless Undead (talk) 01:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Two allies of Shoigu died after Shoigu was fired

Two Allies of Russia's Fired Defense Minister Die Mysteriously in One Week https://www.newsweek.com/russia-putin-shoigu-khandayev-kotelnikov-found-dead-1925123 Joreberg (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 5 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There's a rough consensus here.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

---

Suspicious deaths of notable Russians (2022–2024) → Suspicious deaths of notable Russians in 2022–2024 – It is a weird style choice to use parenthesis here, which are usually used for disambiguation. PhotographyEdits (talk) 08:13, 5 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Waqar💬 08:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose move. This style is often used for conflicts, wars, the like. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, because there are commonly naming conflicts between different wars of the same name. That is not the case here. PhotographyEdits (talk) 07:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

In any case, I still oppose, because have the deaths stopped? Saying a defined end to it would be inaccurate if it continues next year. Also it should be from, not in. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

My point was that I want to remove the parenthesis from the title. Do you agree with that? I'm open to any other changes. PhotographyEdits (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The current title is definitely suboptimal. Clearly non-notable instances should not be included whether that is in the title or not. I also note that the base title Suspicious deaths of notable Russians is a redlink. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support The title has other problems but in this case the time period is not a disambiguator vs. other articles with a similar name, rather an element of the list criteria ie. directly in the title. -- GreenC 15:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. If these people were all notable, wouldn't they already have an article? The vast majority do not. Mellk (talk) 15:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is not what is currently discussed here, though. PhotographyEdits (talk) 07:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per the rational that this is not a disambiguator but a part of the subject title, this directly addresses the concerns by PARAKANYAA. Bobby Cohn (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What about Nawalny?

See above 134.60.99.239 (talk) 08:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Belarusians included

There are Belarusians in the list. I found no evidence that Dzianis Sidarenka and Vladimir Makei have Russian citizenship. They should either be deleted or the text should reflect that the article refers to both Russians and Belarusians. Chaptagai (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Suspicious deaths of notable Russians in 2022–2024

The use of in is not great. I asked Perplexity and it gave the following answer:

The sentence "Deaths in 2022-2024" is grammatically correct, but it could be improved for clarity and precision. Let's examine the alternatives:

"Deaths in 2022-2024":
 This is grammatically correct and concise. It implies deaths that occurred within the specified time frame.

"Deaths from 2022-2024":
 This is also grammatically correct. The preposition "from" suggests a starting point, which works well in this context.

"Deaths during 2022-2024":
 This is perhaps the most precise option. "During" clearly indicates the entire span of time from the beginning of 2022 to the end of 2024.

Among these options, "Deaths during 2022-2024" is generally considered the best choice for the following reasons:
Clarity: It leaves no ambiguity about the time frame being discussed.
Precision: It accurately conveys that the deaths occurred throughout the entire period.
Formality: In formal writing or official documents, "during" is often preferred for time ranges.
However, the choice may depend on the context and style of your writing. In less formal contexts or where brevity is important, "Deaths in 2022-2024" could be perfectly acceptable.

So, we have some tradeoffs between ambiguity, clarity and precision. IMO during is the better choice. -- GreenC 15:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)