Talk:The Seven Last Words of Christ (Haydn)

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Initial text

Having heard the version with solo voices and chorus now, that version at least was no afterthought it seems (much too interesting choral and solo writing), will see what I can write up... and even though only one version is for quartet, it belongs under compositions for string quartet and compositions for symphonic orchestra both. Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology of versions

Hi opus 33! I see you've gotten a little farther than me with the Passau date. Here's what I drafted while we were both editing: -

Artaria published the original version in 1785, and followed it two years later with a version for string quartet of uncertain authority. The first violin part of the quartet version includes the Latin text directly under the notes which "speak" the words musically. Suspicions of its authenticity are due to the occasionally careless manner of transcription, with crucial wind passages left out and only the accompanimental figures in the strings retained, and while this remains the most popular version of this piece, many quartets make their own adaptation of the orchestral original.^{[citation needed]}

In 1795 Haydn travelled through Passau and heard a performance with added choral parts (in German) by Joseph Frieberth and went on to add choral parts of his own between 1795 and 1796. ^[1] He was assisted in reworking Friebert's texts by the librettist Baron Gottfried van Swieten; this was the first work in a serial collaboration that continued with the later oratorios The Creation and The Seasons.^[2] This oratorio version was published by Breitkopf & Härtel in 1801.^[3]

Obviously "still later" has to go from the 4tte paragraph. May I leave it in your able hands? Sparafucil (talk) 22:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, though if you want to put in what you did that's fine with me too. Cheers, Opus33 (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Haydn_7last_choral.htm
^ See Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, article "Gottfried van Swieten".
^ Karl Michael Komma: notes to Interchord recording INT 860.950 Württembergisches Kammerochester Heilbronn dir. Frieder Bernius. Komma gives the date 1794 for the Passau performance.

Disambiguation - 7 Last Words of Christ

Theodore Dubois (1837 - 1924) scored a version of 'The Seven Last Words of Christ'. This work was recorded by Emory Cook in the early 1950s. The originals are now in the Smithsonian and forms part of a collection of early Hi-Fi recording. The organ in the Boston Symphony Hall produces 16Hz tones which could not be recorded before this recording.

Cook recording 1094 features Willis page as conductor, Margo Stagliano (Soprano) Mac Morgan (Baritone) Carl Nelson (Tenor) And Reginald Foort (Organ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crowse (talk • contribs) 14:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved by Opus33, in line with what looks like everyone's consensus, so tidying up for Opus33's not very BOLD move In ictu oculi (talk) 10:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Seven Last Words of Christ → The Seven Last Words of Christ (Joseph Haydn) (or any other more suitable title)

This generic title should be used for the article Sayings of Jesus on the cross. Please also see discussion on that page's talk page. —capmo (talk) 19:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support partly because religious usage tends to overcapitalization (and searchers may need handholding on that) but also because Joseph Haydn's Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze isn't WP:PRIMARYTOPIC given all the Musical settings of The Seven Last Words of Christ including Heinrich Schütz' Die sieben Worte Jesu Christi am Kreuz and César Franck's Les Sept Paroles du Christ sur la Croix and a homonym by Charles Gounod. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I'm fine with this but the "Joseph" isn't needed (I don't think Michael Haydn wrote a work with this title). Opus33 (talk) 03:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support – what In ictu oculi and Opus33 said: The Seven Last Words of Christ (Haydn). (There are almost more REDIRECTs linking to this article than genuine links.) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Another option is to rename to the original title in German Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze, without the composer name in parentheses. This would be in line with the articles about Schütz's and César Franck's works cited above. —capmo (talk) 12:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment to comment. In my experience (i.e. in reading about Haydn and buying recordings), I've found that the German title is almost never used in English-speaking contexts. So I think that while using the German is fine for Schütz and Franck, it wouldn't be helpful for the Haydn work. In other words, I would still favor The Seven Last Words of Christ (Haydn) -- which would solve the original problem. Opus33 (talk) 15:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to agree that English name Seven Words (Haydn) in some variation is better in this case. The Schütz and Franck works are choral, Schütz and Franck are all about the voices, and the text is an important part of the identity of the piece - wheras the Haydn orchestral piece was originally Las Siete Ultimas Palabras de Jesús in Madrid (if I recall correctly a priest reading the 7 words in Latin between the sections but this is a vague memory from a CD booklet, it may be wrong). In any case the orchestral and quartet versions are wordless and better known than the German choral version. To me the German name means only the 3rd choral version. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine by me. —capmo (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I'll fix the redirects later. Opus33 (talk) 03:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cathedral?

I take issue with reference point #1, which states the following: "Haydn errs here: the request came from another church in Cádiz, the new Oratorio de la Santa Cueva, still existing."

This refers to this quoted text: "Some fifteen years ago I was requested by a canon of Cádiz to compose instrumental music on the Seven Last Words of Our Savior On the Cross. It was customary at the Cathedral of Cádiz[1] to produce an oratorio every year during Lent,... etc."

Nowhere does Haydn say that this work is written for the Cádiz Cathedral. He is merely relaying that there was a long-standing tradition in Cádiz to have this ritual take place. Admittedly, the statement itself is murky, although this may be as much due to Robbins-Landon's original translation as to whatever Haydn wrote in German. Haydn was well-aware who was paying his fee for the composition though.

Regarding reference point #3, "Carlos Prieto The adventures of a cello 2006" referring to "and paid Haydn in a most unusual way - sending the composer a cake which Haydn discovered was filled with gold coins". Surely this is merely anecdotal. It doesn't appear elsewhere in the literature, and verges on bizarre!

Haydnist (talk) 01:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Haydnist[reply]

Thank you. I found the original German here.

"Es sind ungefaehr fuenfzehn Jahre, dass ich von einem Domherrn in Cadix ersucht wurde, eine Instrumentalmusik auf die sieben Worte Jesu am Kreuze zu verfertigen. Man pflegte damals, all Jahre waehrend der Fastenzeit in der Hauptkirche zu Cadix in Oratorium auzufuehren, zu dessen verstaerkter Wirkung folgend Anstalten nicht wenig beytragen mussten. ...

"Hauptkirche", literally "head church", is not easy to find on translation websites. German Wikipedia tells us:

Eine Hauptkirche ist im Sprachgebrauch der protestantischen Kirchen die Wirkungsstätte des Superintendenten, bei der Evangelischen Kirche in Deutschland eine Kirche, die Sitz eines Hauptpastors, oftmals eines Bischofs, ist.

Die Hauptkirchen der evangelischen Landeskirchen sind damit das Gegenstück zu den Kathedralen der vorreformatorischen Kirchen, etwa der römisch-katholischen Kirche.

This seems to tend toward "cathedral" as a not-unreasonable translation. The oddity of using this apparently-Protestant term for a Catholic cathedral might be explained under my pet theory that the narrative in question was ghost-written for the fading Haydn by his friend and publisher's rep, Georg August Griesinger, who I believe was a Protestant.

I would not want to try to take this further myself. Perhaps a native-speaker German editor might help?

I *think* the gold coin report does represent a historical account (though perhaps not a true one?) and I will try to find it in my reference sources. Opus33 (talk) 04:59, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Followup: consulting my little shelf of Haydn biographies, I've patched up a bit. The claim that Haydn erred in thinking his work was for the Cadiz Cathedral is now sourced (Gotwals book); and the coins-in-cake story is attributed to Geiringer's biography. I think more could be said about both issues but at least what we do say has scholarly citations from recognized authorities. Opus33 (talk) 16:02, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Opus33 Excellent, thanks so much for the further citations. Along with your 'pet theory', I might add that 15 years down the road, i.e. - in 1801, Haydn's memory seems to have got a bit foggy (and no wonder), so perhaps he misspoke to Griesinger, or there was just a misunderstanding. I go back and re-read Gotwals fairly often, and each time I discover some new anomaly I hadn't noted earlier.

I would certainly like to know where Geiringer got the coins-in-the-cake story. It seems all too strange.

Regards, Haydnist (talk) 02:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks, Haydnist. I agree with you about the weirdness of the cake (though let it be said that it's not that different from the crazy practice the aristocrats had of handing out money in snuffboxes). The story probably comes from one of the crummier contemporary biographies, Framery or Carpani, of which I wish I had copies... Opus33 (talk) 15:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Great chunks of the text are available in 'Chronicle & Works', but Landon didn't translate any of it, probably in the belief that he shouldn't impose a translation on us, since our own archaic French and Italian were probably sufficient. I am away from my library now, but I can provide pages if you like. I would have loved to read it too, even though I occasionally struggle with English, archaic or otherwise!

Haydnist (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for the hint, Haydnist. I can look at Chronicle and Works in my local reference library, and will try to find the time soon to do so! Opus33 (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I invite you to read the essay which I have just posted, it does contain some thoughts I have generated from other sources, as well as the benefits I have gained from discussing with you. Thanks for that. http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html

Haydnist (talk) 17:28, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gossec

I remember hearing a recording of a sacred work by Gossec (?) that used the introduction. I can't remember which. Maybe I'm misremembering entirely. Footpathandstile (talk) 03:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Haydn_7last_choral.htm

[2] See Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, article "Gottfried van Swieten".

[3] Karl Michael Komma: notes to Interchord recording INT 860.950 Württembergisches Kammerochester Heilbronn dir. Frieder Bernius. Komma gives the date 1794 for the Passau performance.

[1]

[2]

[3]