Talk:Things Fall Apart/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

NPOV

The entire last paragraph 1) seems lifted from somewhere, and 2) is extremely POV. Particularly the bit criticising the Ibo culture. This is not the place for something like that, it's not encyclopedic. Kyou 02:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely! I'm only a high school student, so I haven't studied the work to write a literary analysis, but that section doesn't belong. Besides, it seems to miss the entire point of the novel. Things Fall Apart deserves better. --Aekarn 04:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Question

The whole article (at least the part beginning with "Point of View" until the end) seems very awkwardly worded to me, in phrases such as "The village is faced with the hard decision to either accept the change or if they accept it, it would show their own personal weakness." Was it written by a native English speaker? It seems like this part of the article (and possibly the Part 1 and 2, I didn't read them) needs to be rewritten or revised to be less awkwardly phrased. Does anyone else agree?

Also passages like "The perspective of this novel was appropriate because of the language barrier. Achebe has peppered pieces of the Igbo language proving that it is too complex for a direct English translation. By having a third person narrator, it allows the reader to understand what is going on. This novel has limited dialogue, because the language is so different from English. So in order to obtain the whole plot the character must know what the characters are thinking and why they are thinking that," are unsubstantiated. Certainly other explanations are very possible as to the reason for the point of view, and since the book was originally written in English, the idea that dialogue is limited as a result of the complexity of translating the Ibo language seems shaky at best. And the idea that the use of Ibo phrases proves the complexity of the language seems silly as well. Isn't it possible that Achebe simply used them to create atmosphere? The whole second half of the article seems to contain some shaky assertions like this one. Thoughts?--Derco 07:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the second part of this article looks as if it was lifted wholesale from somewhere, I disagree with your assertion, Derco, about the complexity or otherwise of Ibo (and yes, the word can be spelled either Ibo or Igbo, with Ibo being mainly used for members of that ethnic group to the west of the River Niger, and Igbo being used for the peoples to the east of the Niger). There are many proverbs, sayings, etc. in Ibo which are extremely difficult to render properly in English. Yes, many times Achebe uses these Ibo phrases atmospherically, but most of the time he leaves them in because they just cannot be properly translated. The major reason why the college educated Achebe wrote Things Fall Apart in English rather than in Ibo was to showcase to a Western audience the richness and depth of language that the Ibo possess, as well as to highlight aspects of life in pre-colonial Nigeria. Being that the novel remains a worldwide classic, I believe he achieved this aim handily. -- Jalabi99 13:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that he did a great job and it's a great book. That's why this page is rather troubling to me. I don't see any verification for the assertions in the second half of the article. Perhaps Achebe did keep phrases in the original Ibo because it was too complex (not being able to speak Ibo I can't say personally if this is true or not), but no source is given for this assertion. Another example of this is the assertion "He [Okonkwo]dies courageously," which certainly seems to be up to the opinion of the reader. Also: "In part II, however, when the Europeans arrive, their actions are much more cruel and cannablistic than the tribal people's." I do not recall the Europeans being practioners of cannabalism, and although I have not read the book in a year or so, I highly doubt that they were depicted in this manner. Basically the second half o the article contains a lot of unverified assertions and statements of highly questionable accuracy. My other complaint was simply the awkward wording of much of the article (e.g. "Also both the settlers and the villagers have guns. These objects prove to us that it takes place in the 1800's." To me, the use of the word "we" seems very srange in an encyclopedia entry.) Also I don't see why the article would spell it Igbo if Achebe himself spelled it Ibo.--Derco 01:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph that begins under the "Point of View" heading is really problematic also because it seems to imply that the novel was translated from Ibo, which it isn't. It also seems like it could easily be condensed into a sentence as part of a larger discussion of style that would probably be more appropriate for the article. --Nicole Javaly 14:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As for the use of Igbo, it is true that Achebe used Ibo, but the modern/current way to spell it is Igbo. See Igbo (people). In the book itself, "Ibo" is used, but in the preface to the most recent version (see Google Books) uses "Igbo." I just re-read this for my college English class, so I may do some revising. In fact, I will do at least some (i.e. add an infobox). --The Human Spellchecker 09:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

old talk

The name of the ethnic group is spelled "Ibo" in the text, not "Igbo." | Keithlaw 18:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC) ńó

I do believe that it can be

Okay...this was stated below spelt either way, but the book specifically uses "Ibo". I see the pay currently has sort of both. Ethan 22:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)...but, as for the use of Igbo, it is true that Achebe used Ibo, but the modern/current way to spell it is Igbo. See Igbo (people). In the book itself, "Ibo" is used, but in the preface to the most recent version (see Google Books) uses "Igbo." --The Human Spellchecker 10:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

exact date of publication could a paper be written about the similarities between this book and Night.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

After listening to a couple recordings of conversational Igbo, I could tell that when "g" & "b" are together as "gb", the "g" has an "h"-like sound. https://www.igboguide.org/HT-igboconversation.htm AJMJohnson

Rewrite

This article badly needs a rewrite. It reads like a high school paper, not like an encyclopedia entry. There's too much plot summary and not enough about its literary significance (which is what the article should focus much more on - showing its significance and notability), and it badly needs references. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I made a start with literary significance and history. -- Stbalbach 18:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Three Parts

I just read this book for my English class, and it is seperated into three parts. The third part starts with Okonkwo returning to his tribe at chapter twenty (pg. 157). Published by Fawcett Crest, NY. October 1969 Mannerisky

Correct, it is 3 parts. -- Stbalbach 18:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is three parts, but this page does not talk about the contents of them. This page does not even talk about any part of the book. I think that the page should include just a little bit of info. -- T3H_PWN3R [9:32 PM, 4-29-07] —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Ezinma

In the summary it says "One night Chielo, a woman consumed by the Goddess Agbala, comes to Okonkwo’s compound screaming that Ezinma was to be sacrificed and she must take her. Without question Ezinma is given to Chielo..." but I don't believe she was to be sacrificed. I think that no reason was given by Chielo. I believe that Ekwefi and Okonkwo followed her because they weren't sure what was going to happen, and Achebe emphasizes this uncertainty in the darkness of walking to the next village at night in the jungle. Somebody who read this more recently than I have should update.

The commentor is right. Ezinma was not taken away by Chielo in the middle of the night to be killed because Chielo herself returns Ezinma to her home the next morning without harming her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sushantap (talk • contribs) 08:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Ibo/Igbo

In the novel, the society is referred to as both Ibo and Igbo. The two phrases can be used interchangeably, however, are both pronounced the same, like E-bo.

Vlcmkd2 22:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the correct pronunciation is EE-bo, not EYE-bo (see [1]). And Igbo is the "current" term, Ibo has fallen out of use in preference for the former.

--The Human Spellchecker 09:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It's nice that this is sort of indicated now in the article's introduction, but it still initially says Ibo and then in the same paragraph later says Igbo. This is kind of inconsistent? 157.182.224.154 14:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

A correction on the relationship of Things Fall Apart with Arrow of God

I do not have the nerve to edit the main article for lack of appropriate credentials.

Arrow of God is not a sequel to Things Fall Apart. It is an almost parallel novel that dealt with difficulties the African societies underwent when the whitemen came and took over their sovereignty and introduced a new religion to replace the ones they inherited from the ancestors. It sets in Umuaru, separate and distinct from Okonkwo's Umuafia. There was part of the novel that remotely suggests that its main character the colourful chief priest of ulu, had any kinship with Okonkwo or any of the characters in Things Fall Apart.

Would someon make this correction, please. J. Imandi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 06:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC) (talk) 196.1.178.69 (UTC)

opening paragraph

Perhaps this may expose my ignorance, but I believe the second sentence of the opening paragraph may be a misrepresentation as I am in fact an American living in America and I had never heard of this book until it was featured on the front page of Wikipedia. Having attended a number of schools in the USA, and having lived here all my life, I can therefore state with some degree of certainty that it is likely not "widely read and studied in English-speaking countries around the world." Can anyone contest this? If not then the sentence should be omitted in its entirety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.188.152.6 (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.1.178.69 (talk) 13:19, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Response to comment above: it may not be one of the most widely known books of all time, and not part of the Western canon, but I can safely say that it is studied very frequently. Often it's paired/compared with Conrad's Heart of Darkness. I myself read Things Fall Apart as a sophomore in high school as part of a basic English class. Also keep in mind that this novel usually ranks within the top 100 books on Amazon.com (at the time of this comment it's #99 in the top books list). It is definitely a widely read text. 71.217.163.179 (talk) 03:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I will also attest to the fact that Things Fall Apart is widely read in high schools. I first read it in my freshman English class and again as part of the college literature class, where it was pared with Weep Not, Child. Things Fall Apart is on many school reading lists, thus its high status on Amazon given how long ago the book was first published. --RossF18 (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Themes and motifs

In the section about themes and motifs, one of the listed subjects is: "Violence and conflict in once peaceful communities were created by Christian missionaries." However, this is not true. The communities fight wars with each other before the missionaries come, as is made clear in the beginning of the novel. Is it ok if i remove that part? Or can anyone justify the statement? -AnnaP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.193.177.84 (talk) 22:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

First, I think it definitely could be phrased better. But, second, I think this comment is meant to discuss the violence and conflict within the village itself. Also, which violence and conflict in the beginning of the book are you referring to in between the communities because I seem to recall that the conflicts were often solved by having one person sacrificed or with exile and there were many united villages that forged bonds by sending daughters to live in the other village. Generally, no, the communities in Africa were certainly not immune to violence and conflict, but I think this statement addresses the specific violence and conflict as insigated by the arrival of the Christian missionaries, wholly apart from any conflict before they arrived. And I think Okonkwo's village was in relative peace for many years before missionaries arrived, which would make it a peaceful willage. I think the theme referred to looks specifically at the strife created by missioanries as opposed to alleging that there was no strife before they arrived. --RossF18 (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox and citations

I've edited the infobox slightly to reflect the first edition a bit more, as per standard use of the template - 1958 novels pre-date the use of ISBNs. I have been unable to find a copy of the first edition to verify the other fields - specifically, Publisher, Hardcover/Softcover, and Page count.

Also, more varied sources are needed for citing parts of the article. There's not really much point using footnotes if every footnote points to the same source! -- H. Carver 08:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As my teachers always say - if you're only using one source, then you're probably just paraphrasing exactly what that person said... and that's not a very balanced way to write anything! Justi521 05:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Why does the first paragraph say that it's a 1959 novel? My Penguin edition also gives 1958 as the date of original publication... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuwanda (talk • contribs) 21:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Page count

number of pages in this book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.131 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 22 February 2006

• The amazon.com entry says 224 pages. | Klaw ¡digame! 23:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

• • That must include the introduction. I have the Everyman edition in front of me and that has 18 pages of introduction, bibliography and biography, 179 pages of text and 2 pages of glossary. MidlandLinda (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Add _The Good Earth_ to See Also? (Edit: Probably not, at least not yet.)

Obviously they're not quite concerned with the same subjects -- white men are rather less important in The Good Earth than they are here -- but somehow Things Fall Apart strikes me as distinctly similar to it. Certainly as having more in common with it than with Heart of Darkness -- both of these are English-language novels about non-English-speaking civilizations, dealing with the effects of European colonization, while Heart of Darkness is an ivory-hunting European navel gaze, noteworthy chiefly for its esoteric narration and having more in common with Finnegans Wake than Things Fall Apart. On the other hand, perhaps this is too much in the way of original research... ExOttoyuhr (talk) 14:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The key differences are who wrote the novel and the subject matter. The Good Earth is written by an American author about life in the Chinese countryside. Both the Heart of Darkness and Things Fall Apart deal with the African continent and the perseption of populace. Things Fall Apart, written by an author from Africa, provides a stark challenge and contrast to the fairly prejudiced Heart of Darkness and often that's the point of pairing these two books together - to provide a counterpoint of how early colonialists often viewed the African populace (Hearth of Darkness) and the reality of the situation and impact of their behavior and prejucises on the African populace (Things Fall Apart). If you think that Heart of Darkness is mainly a hunting story, there is some missed interpretation there on your part - no offense. --RossF18 (talk) 17:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it on Heart of Darkness, Conrad was primarily writing to be, well, navel-gazing, and only caricatured the whole population of the Congo as an afterthought, rather than as the primary point of the book. (Which is if anything more insulting. Peoples are not literary devices, and Achebe is right to object to such treatment.) My question was whether The Good Earth has enough in common with Things Fall Apart to be worth mentioning here: Buck was racially an American white, but her first language was Chinese, and The Good Earth interacts with Western contact in a broadly similar manner. They're also both very popular as school assignments... :) (However, now that I've read Things Fall Apart, I'd say the right Buck novel to compare it with is Sons -- but its article is a small enough stub, and the book's obscure enough, that it's not really worth pressing for.)

Then again, all this is close to OR. There's some interest in scaling back the OR restrictions for literary criticism in Wikipedia, but I should probably wait for that rollback to happen before I start making novel lit-crit suggestions. That, or write a book. :) ExOttoyuhr (talk) 21:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

My only concern would be in terms of the massive amount of books that actually deal with white colonial oppression. I don't think we should start adding books merely based on the similar interaction of main characters with Westerners. I think we should restrict it to books dealing with more similar subject matter, than the broad similarity between the two books. Broadly, yes, you're correct that that aspect is similar. But there seems to be more differences than similarities, especially when compared to such books that are currently listed in the See Also section, mainly the obliteration of African culture by colonists. There are several great novels discussing the destruction of African cultures by colonists, as opposed to the influence of whites on the Chinese culture. The main difference is the matter of degree, I think, as to the impact of whites on African as opposed to the Chinese culture. It seems that Good Earth is more similar to Family by Ba Jin.--RossF18 (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Another reason for coupling "Heart of Darkness" with "Things Fall Apart" is the fact that both authors are not writing in there primary language, Achebe's was Igbo, Conrad's Polish.MidlandLinda (talk) 19:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Section "Themes and motifs" does not cite any references or sources

The section "Themes and motifs" does not cite any references or sources. This gives it the appearance of being simply the opinion / original research of its editor(s). We need to provide reliable third-party cites for all these statements. If we can't do so fairly soon, then we should delete this section from the article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It gives the impression to me of being lifted from a study guide, perhaps Cliffnotes which is one of the citations for the Literary Significance section. Perhaps someone studying this for an exan could confirm this.MidlandLinda (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

At a glance, it doesn't appear to be lifted from a study guide given that the SparkNotes page on the motifs and themes is rather different [2]. And I would welcome the users suggesting deletions to help out as well. Also, what does "fairly soon" mean? Tomorrow, a week from now, a month? I think having suggested that we provide third party cites two days ago, user 201.37.230.43 could have helped with at least one citation if the main focus wasn't on deletion. But in the spirit of good faith, how about some help. --RossF18 (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Culture

Did someone vandalize this section? All it says is "Completely different than our modern cultural style today." With no references and no support, the quality of this 'as is' is low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 (talk) 17:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Yes, it was vandalized.--RossF18 (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

"Things Fall Apart" from the viewpoint of the function of myths and customs

The personal tragedy of the protagonist of this novel, and of his tribal/clan culture in the face of brutal invasion, is an instance of the importance of one of Joseph Campbell's main ideas, i.e. that every culture has myths, one function of which is (among other things) to teach the people how to behave (to "do the right thing' is one way to express it). Still following Campbell, the culture and its people are in trouble when the lessons of those myths no longer work (for whatever reasons). (see Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers, "The Power of Myth," Anchor Books, 1991; first published 1988, especially Chapter 1.) Campbell expressed his personal view that the USA in the 20th century had this problem in relation to some of its religious myths and customs, especially the more fundamentalist ones.

Among the many different lessons of Achebe's novel is the fragility of an inflexible, primitive, and unsophisticated culture. It may work if nothing changes but it cannot adapt to change. Whether the reader admires the Ibo culture depicted in the novel or not (for whatever reasons), and whatever one thinks of the British colonialists including their missionaries, I don't think it can be denied that Okonkwo's story is of a terrible failure because he is not flexible, has not been sophisticated by contact (direct or indirect) with other different cultures, is in a culture with rigid traditions that, among other things, are more oriented toward honor and custom than to survival. Okonkwo, the strong man, is in fact shown to be fragile because of these aspects of his culture, exacerbated by his own constant fear of appearing (or actually being) weak -- and, perhaps, a certain lack of intelligence.

Like it or not, politically correct or not, this novel teaches that flexibility, readiness to adapt, and readiness to change old customs when they no longer work can be crucial to survival -- of individuals, and even of cultures which will be changed in the process but perhaps not simply destroyed. One may prefer honor according to the old customs, but it is expensive.

oops -- forgot to sign -- Bergsyj (talk) 17:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bergsyj (talk • contribs) 16:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)