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Pool's extremist comments on right-wing mass shootings

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Springee has deleted the edits re-introducing Tim Pool's comments on the Colorado LGBT club mass shooting calling the victims groomers, which were widely reported in reliable sources and by noteworthy commentators, and they have single-handedly decided that the BBC's article about the disinformation being spread by Tim Pool on the Texas shooting doesn't belong. Both these events, however, constitute one of the few times Pool's commentary broke the bubble of technology news media and made it to the highest-ranking news outlets. Unflattering or not, they belong on this entry as much as everything else about him. Can the wider editor community weigh in? Peleio Aquiles (talk) 18:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please use the previous discussion rather than starting a new one. Springee (talk) 18:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have new edits and events, about the Texas shooting so a new discussion is appropriate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the edits I don't think Springee is as much objecting to the coverage per-say they just don't like the language used/meets the very strict requirements of BLP, @Springee: can you suggest summaries of the coverage which you feel are appropriate? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look when I'm at a computer again (vs on a phone). Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk · contribs) was part of the prior discussion when this same material was added. Springee (talk) 18:52, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That user hasn't edited this entry in months. I'm fairly certain that ot's against Wikipedia's rules to canvass specific editors to discuss edit controversies in a Talk Page just because they're likely to agree with you. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 19:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You, Springee, and I were the only editors to participate in the last discussion on this topic. Per WP:APPNOTE, it is perfectly acceptable to notify Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic. Springee did not canvass anyone to this discussion. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 22:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Since this is a continuation of the previous discussion notifying involved parties is fine. Springee (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If that's the case, it's certainly odd that they only react to such coverage by blanketing them. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article you cite says very little about Pool. The content related to Pool himself is at the very bottom and it isn't clear what specifically Pool was saying or referencing. I removed three claims/two sections of text which referenced that single BBC article. One was the "...as been described by the BBC". My issue here is these sort of offhand descriptions are rarely a good source for an encyclopedic claim in large part because they aren't supported by the text that follows. They are meant to set the stage for an otherwise unfamiliar reader. They don't support their claim which is something we would want when dealing with a BLP. The other part was the new, two sentence paragraph that says Pool's claims were baseless (the BBC doesn't say that). It also isn't clear what Pool was saying was a "psyop". Was it the information about the shooter in general or the linkage to Pool etc? Vague statements below the fold aren't good sources for contentious claims about a BLP subject. It's also not OK to take those vague claims and try to strengthen them in a way that isn't clearly supported by the original source. As a final, independent point, listing a bunch of times when some writer decided they didn't like what someone said on social media really isn't a good way to construct a BLP. Springee (talk) 22:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "His podcast has been described by the BBC as covering "right-wing talking points and conspiracy theories"."
The statement is presented as an opinion expressed by the BBC. (In fact, it should say BBC writers since the source is a signed article. If it is an opinion, then weight must be established. This is usually done by showing that the comments by the BBC writers have been widely cited.
However, this appears not to be a statement of opinion, but one of fact *whether it is true or not.) In that case, intext attribution should not be used. For example one would not say Obama was born in the U.S., according to BBC reporters, we would just say he was born in the U.S. and provide inline citations. Intext citation would add doubt to something that is a fact.
The comment in the BBC article is not particularly helpful. Yes, he covers "right-wing talking points and conspiracy theories," but so does the SPLC and to a lesser extent, most news media when they become newsworthy. I learned about birtherism for example on CNN, because they "covered it."
I do not think it is useful to throw in one sentence zingers drawn from passing references in news media. It's better to get comprehensive sources about the topic and summarize them. If they don't exist, leave them out or delete the article.
An article based on the original research of editors is worse than not having an article at all.
Furthermore, the source itself is not rs for facts because it is analysis. TFD (talk) 23:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstand, Pool isn't "covering" them as a journalist he holds or is sympathetic to these views and is promoting them. The NYT describes his podcast as "an extreme right-wing podcast" and says that it has "been criticized as a vector for conspiracy theories"[1] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the sort of thing that the far right would say.Tim Pool is far right. 84.69.209.118 (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from vandalizing this page with personal opinion bias that VERY clearly violates the Wikipedia neutrality policy. To claim that Tim Pool is a far right activist as a statement of fact is blatantly in violation. Regardless of your personal feeling about Tim Pool, stating his political views based on media outlet opinion pieces go against the very heart of wikipedia. DanMan3395 (talk) 01:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DanMan3395 no, you are in the wrong here. Those are not opinion pieces. We go by what reliable sources say. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you are incorrect. The first source: "https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/conspiracy-theorists-far-right-agitators-head-white-house-social-media-n1028576" cites a twitter post by a permanently banned user known for spreading false information. It is NOT a reliable source.
The second source: "https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65539698" makes no claim about Tim pool's political affiliation at all. It is an article that shows that a criminal followed him on social media.
BOTH of these articles rely on social media which is a violation of Wikipedia policy. The content in dispute is a CLEAR violation of the Wikipedia policy on neutrality in subject matter. Lastly, the content in question is NOT a statement of fact, but rather a ridiculously biased opinion of SOME editors.
Please refrain from further vandalizing this page or this will be escalated to senior administration for review. DanMan3395 (talk) 21:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DanMan3395, the BBC source clearlys says "Mr Pool's podcasts, which cover right-wing talking points and conspiracy theories." There is nothing violating neutrality just because you don't agree with high quality, reputable sources. – notwally (talk) 22:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That quote is not cited, nor is the focus of the article even about the subject matter. This most certainly DOES violate the Wikipedia neutrality policy as you are merely expressing your personal bias with substantially low quality sources. The rules on this are especially strict when it comes to biographical pages about people. Please stop putting opinion on this page. Move that note to the section about his podcast's content and cite the view as the opinion of the BBC writer that published your source. DanMan3395 (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That article is already cited, and there are numerous other sources to support the use of "right wing", which has been discussed repeatedly on this talk page. The BBC is about as high quality a news source as one can get and is not "substantially low quality" as you claim. Your POV is not given more weight than major, respected newspapers. You are wrong about the policies and the sources, and you need to stop your editing warring. In the past week, you have been reverted by at least four other editors including me (EvergreenFir, Newimpartial, Ponyo) for your WP:Tendentious editing. – notwally (talk) 20:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More accurate photo

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Tim is bald. Nowhere on this page mentions that. We have a picture of him without the beanie, I think we should use that one in the name of transparency. 76.172.88.207 (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who cares? EvergreenFir (talk) 18:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I second EvergreenFir's opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The people have a right to know 76.172.88.207 (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have a more accurate picture to upload, how do I do it? 84.69.209.118 (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is the picture free? Dronebogus (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes 185.104.136.55 (talk) 14:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know what I mean by “free” in this context? Dronebogus (talk) 21:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is his Mixed Race missing?

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No entry about his asian roots here! Fix it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DC:CF39:CB00:78AA:59B9:B5F3:ED42 (talk) 06:48, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Find a reliable source and do it yourself. NM 03:08, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He has made statements as such on Twitter alluding to his supposed Korean & Japanese ancestry. But is it all that noteworthy? He only brings up this supposed(probably no more than 1/4) E. Asian ancestry when making a point about something someone else said on twitter - hardly noteworthy. He isn't Asian American until he actually identifies as such. And even then...--SinoDevonian (talk) 12:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than debate noteworthiness ourselves, I think we should just include what reliable sources say. And none that I can see on a single search seem to mention that he's part Asian, so we shouldn't include it until someone can find that one that does. Btw, I am seeing an X post from him saying that he identifies as Asian American; he made this post on the same day you posted so he's possibly monitoring this talk page lol. Stop being edgy tim 104.232.119.107 (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Hollywood In Toto" website is not a reliable source for information

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Regarding the fact that Pool's song "Only Ever Wanted" reached the #2 spot on the global iTunes chart: The article cites Hollywood In Toto, a far-right "entertainment news" website, as a source. A more reliable source is needed here. 2601:CC:C101:D6D0:4923:F0BE:ECD7:605B (talk) 21:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accusation of meddling with the 2024 presidential election

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Hi. I'm basically asking to help me improve formulating this recent newspiece about Pool's involvement with Russia's Kremlin propaganda and election interference (via RT and TENET Co.) … so that it's up to WP standard and doesn't get deleted. More info that I could find on this: [2] [3] Thanks, Hidalgo944 (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yahoo typically just republished content from other outlets which may or may not be reliable. For convenience, here are some sources formatted as references:
HuffPo is less credible as a source for political topics, per WP:HUFFPOLITICS, but the rest seem more or less fine.
Grayfell (talk) 01:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AP News also has this story EvergreenFir (talk) 04:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has pretty broad coverage. Looks sufficient to include a something along the lines of "In September 2024, the Department of Justice alleged that Russia was funding Tennessee-based media company Tenet Media, and used it for an influence operation. Pool was among the influencers paid by the company. He stated that he was unaware who was financing Tenet Media." Cortador (talk) 05:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like quite a stretch at this point. I mean it's clear there is an accusation that suggest Pool et al. However, there is nothing substantial at this time and as a BLP we shouldn't be including vague accusations without substance. I suggest leaving this out for the time since it appears to be the media, not the official statements that link this to Pool (and others). Springee (talk) 05:19, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing about this is a "stretch". There is ample substance, which is provided by a multiple reliable, independent sources. Further, nothing about this is remotely surprising to anyone familiar with Pool's brand of content, and this incident will help provide useful context to readers. Grayfell (talk) 06:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, it sounds like Pool isn't named but the media is appreciating he is one of the unnamed sources. If he is unnamed then we should be careful about repeating the claim as this is a BLP. It doesn't appear that he was knowingly participating nor that he was adjusting his messaging as a result of this. In the end he isn't being accused of anything and since this is a BLP we should wait on including such content until it's clear there is a connection (it Pool's company is named) etc. is it surprising that the Russians would like to amplify a vice that says the US shouldn't give as much aid to Ukraine? No. But that doesn't allow us to ignore the do no harm aspect of BLP. Springee (talk) 10:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have to agree with most here as well, more than plenty reliable references and well sourced with direct ties to Pool. This is not a grey area but direct connection to him. ContentEditman (talk) 11:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, do not add this to the article lead as this is currently an accusation (not proven) and the actual indictment neither names Pool or the company who was funding various commentators. So far it's the media who is connecting the dots and there is no evidence that Pool (or the others) had any awareness where the funding was coming from given the indirect nature of the funding. As for adding to the article body we also have issues of RECENT and NOTNEWS. This is the sort of content that should be held out until we have a long term picture of what it amounts to. Springee (talk) 11:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're the only one trying to remove without consensus. All the other editors agree there is broad coverage and plenty of references to support this. ContentEditman (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the consensus to add this content to the lead of a BLP? So far the only consensus is to add it to the body and no one is weighing the BLP issues even there. Since it was added without context (no names given in the indictment), the indictment doesn't say those who received money from the Tenet company had any what the source was. What was added to the lead can imply Pool is knowingly taking money for and changing his commentary to spread a message from the Russian government. That is absolutely a BLP violation. Springee (talk) 12:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not how WP:BLPRESTORE works. The content being shoved into the lead is WP:OR and given the extraordinary nature of the claim I agree there is no consensus for inclusion. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. No consensus has been reached. Kcmastrpc is correct: this is an extraordinary claim of original research. Cortador's suggested sentence (see above) would be better as it can be well-sourced. Vague accusations of "meddling with the 2024 presidential election" are, however, not. We have more than enough sources which connect him (witting or not) to a disinformation scheme. Regardless of how much you or I understand him to be a right-wing grifter and meddling-peddling asset. But we need not resort to original research to directly accuse him of the election interference sought by Kostiantyn Kalashnikov and Elena Afanasyeva (the RT agents who violated FARA). That is original research, and directly contradicted by the indictment itself. Οἶδα (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pool's editorial replying to the Jan 6th committee

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The article has had a response from Pool to claims made by the Jan 6th committee added by Eric Carpenter in July 2022[4]. It was recently removed with a claim that Newsweek was no longer a RS. I'm not sure that is a reasonable justification to remove something that shows he did the article. That said, because the article is Pool defending himself from what he says are mischaracterizations by the Jan 6th committee I see no reason why this long term content should be removed. I did move it to the Jan 6th section which seems more appropriate rather than as evidence of independent work. Either way, I don't see why it was removed and should be restored either in it's original location or with other Jan 6th material. Springee (talk) 12:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Newsweeks is not a reliable source, and since Pool makes a claim about a third party - the committee - there is not ABOUTSELF exception to be had here. Cortador (talk) 12:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are we trying to prove here? If the objective is to show he had an oped in a mainstream news source then also self wouldn't apply. However, since the Jan 6th Committee mentioned him and the committee isn't an individual his reply certainly is allowed per about self. Springee (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ABOUTSELF refers to third parties, not individuals. Cortador (talk) 14:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please review ABOUTSELF. Pool is the author of the OpEd. He is allowed to say things about himself. It's "about himself" to say that someone presented about him was inaccurate or misrepresents him. ABOUTSELF is specifically for cases where the source is saying something about themselves. Springee (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pool makes a statement about a third party. Hence, this is unsuitable for inclusion. Cortador (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ms X says Senator Y harassed her. Y says X is lying. Since Y is defending himself the defense is specifically allowed as it's in direct reply to the accusation. Again, this is a common about self use. If you don't agree we can take it to BLPN for further discussion. Springee (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to do so. It on you to demonstrate that there is consensus for inclusion. Cortador (talk) 19:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ABOUTSELF is ambiguous with regards to Grammatical person, but I don't really think there's a valid argument for omitting WP:NEWSWEEK as a reliable source per my comment below. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per WP:NEWSWEEK, Its current relationship with IBT Media is unclear, and Newsweek's quality has not returned to its status prior to the 2013 purchase. Many editors have noted that there are several exceptions to this standard, so consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis. It seems that this content is not controversial, it's reporting that Pool made statements in response to what he claims are mischaracterization. I see no problem with using this as a reliable source in this context and with attribution (which doesn't seem to be an issue either). Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it should be added back. If we are going to say in the article: On July 12, 2022, the United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack included clips of a 2020 video from Pool as part of a montage of videos showing support for Trump's announced rally on January 6. And then Pool writes an op-ed in relation to this specific event, then of course there are going to be statements about a third party, how the hell else is he going to make a rebuttal to this specific event if he doesn't mention the United States House Select Committee. WP:PUBLICFIGURE says if the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too. And WP:NEWSWEEK says consensus is to evaluate Newsweek content on a case-by-case basis. This is not original reporting by Newsweek, the piece is clearly identified as "opinion", and Pool's opinion in relation to this event was clearly attributed to him in the content that was removed, so it should be restored. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The current source for the clips is a YouTube video i.e. a primary source. That makes the inclusion dubious already, as content that isn't reported on by RS shouldn't be included. Then stating that because if that, the Newsweek piece is needed is trying to reverse-eingineer that back into the article. Cortador (talk) 05:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't look at the source for the J6 statement already in the article, and I'm assuming you didn't know it was YouTube either. So my reply was not based on knowing the J6 statement was sourced to YouTube, and there was no reverse-engineering involved. My comment was in regards to the argument you were making that if someone, or in this case, a committee, includes material like video clips about an individual in a well publicized hearing, and then that individual responds with a rebuttal, it can't be included because they mentioned the committee. Isaidnoway (talk) 12:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any other policy based objections, that haven't been addressed, to the content so I've added it back. If editors see fit to remove it again they should also remove the entire prose about the USHSC suggesting Pool supported the J6 rally for being UNDUE. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WEIGHT may apply. If you cannot find a reliable secondary source that mentions this, it lacks weight for inclusion. TFD (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m inclined to agree here as well since the reference used to make the initial claim is a YT video of the congressional hearing itself which isn’t necessarily unreliable but it could be considered primary and UNDUE. It seems we have a couple of primary sources taking jabs at one another and I wouldn’t be opposed to both being removed entirely. Kcmastrpc (talk) 03:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Springee any thoughts on just yeeting both the congressional accusations and Pools response entirely? It seems like this is probably just mudslinging that, from what I can tell, didn't get any major media coverage. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see an issue with removing all of it. Springee (talk) 12:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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