Talk:Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions

Secondary Sources

Everything from 20th October 2007 onwards is sourced only to the ALF website, which obviously isn't a reliable source for establishing notability. This page is not for simply duplicating everything on that site, actions must be notable and verified by secondary sources. Please source the material per WP:V or it may be removed. Rockpocket 07:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We need some independent sources for this list. ALF primary sources may be used in this article, but the article shouldn't be based entirely or primarily on them, and it currently is. I'd also suggest that some of the images don't really tell the story. The McDonalds one, for example, just shows a chain and a window.

We might want to consider changing the title to "List of notable acts claimed by the ALF." SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 12:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for not responding earlier, I have taken on board what you have said.

Initially I presumed this article was specifically for including all the actions known from the ALF, i.e actions "claimed" not actions "credited". I have gone back through the recent two months that I have edited and deleted the reports that did not have a more substantial source, although I have left the actions that included a picture(s) and/or video, which is evidence of the action taking place I presume, most of the time anyway. In regards to the McDonalds picture, the source of the action should have the other pictures there which shows how the chain is attached from the inside as well as a picture from the outside (showing that it's McD) and that employees are having to stand outside to tell people they were closed, or were almost anyway. Untileveryoneisfreeet 20:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding. You're right that the title is a little misleading. I created the page because people were adding the actions to the article on the ALF, which was causing problems there, so I was hoping we could list them here instead. So it's all my fault — as usual. :-D SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes

I think there are way too many quotes in this (and accompanying) pages. The quotes are all lifted from unreliable sources and, while a few are good to establish the sort of messages the ALF leave behind, by reproducing them all we are beginning to look like a conduit for their propaganda, especially when we are not quoting the justification for the businesses the ALF attack. There are few other articles with even have the number of quotes as this one. I propose a (humane) cull. Rockpocket 18:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed there are too many, I was getting a bit lazy explaining what the ALF had done, so was overly quoted. I've trimmed it down 3KB from quotes, mainly those that are propaganda orientated and repetitive. I understand that there are a lack of quotes to justification for the businesses the ALF attack, although I have tried to include has many as I could find and included them.

However, I think this can be balanced by leaving the intimidating and threatening quotes, although not the repetitive ones, as people will surely be concerned by these quotes and will want to read them, like the media quote. Therefore the balance comes from taking away the ALF's apparant "compassionate" edge, and putting into perspective what sort of things they threaten etc; which most people dissagree with.

Finally, as I was going through the FBI list, I noticed that they consistently said what relationship the businesses had with HLS, therefore the resource for the "connection" with HLS is not through Bite Back, but confirmed by the FBI. This was exactly the same for the number of animals taken, as well as the most of the vanadalism done. However, if the FBI confirm an act of "vandalism" has taken place, the claim on Bite Back is surely as reliable as can be, as it is only a matter of choice as to whether the mainstream quote them, which most of the time they do when they report on actions. So I don't see the problem with the descriptions etc (as long as not NPOV contradicting), because the FBI have confirmed the action has taken place, and only done so because activists have reported it and they have checked it has happened.

Let me know what you think. Talk / TomLovesCake 00:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are allowed to use the ALF as a source in this article (as a primary source), so long as the list as a whole is not based primarily on the ALF. That is, we need other sources too, though not necessarily another source for every single claim. Having said that, we also need to be careful not to include everything someone in the world claims the ALF has done, or we'll end up with a list of which butchers' stores' locks have been superglued overnight.

I think we should also leave out the quotes most of the time. The page needs to read as though it's not either an attack page (look how evil they are!) or a platform (look how active they are!). Adding quotes has the unfortunate effect of appealing to both sides (supporters and opponents) though for different reasons. We want to appeal to the folks in the middle -- the people who are looking for encyclopedic information. So if we're going to include quotes, they should be quotes that are in some way notable or particularly informative.

We also need to be careful to include only material that has been claimed by the ALF, or that very reliable sources (e.g. FBI) attribute to the ALF. We shouldn't include attacks related only to SHAC, and especially not attacks claimed by the ELF. We also shouldn't include attacks that only highly partisan sources have attributed to the ALF, as they have a tendency to say that anything connected to "animal rights extremists" is an ALF act. If in doubt, leave it out, I would say. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 18 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Merged lists back into one, and moved back to Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions – wbm1058 (talk) 23:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 2005–present → Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 2005–2016 – This article has not ben substantively updated since 2016 so it seems sensible to close off the period to which it refers. Also amend incoming links, and remove {{update}} tag. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:47, 18 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 22:28, 26 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Colonestarrice (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a !vote either way, but is there a reason we'd do this over tagging the page as incomplete/in need of updates? If there was an incident tomorrow, would we need to make a new page to include the timeline from 2016 onward, or remove this one to include it?--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Yaksar: My thought was that after 5 years either ALF actions have thinned out, or interest in updating the article has. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support - I'm not finding much recent news concerning ALF, but I'll admit I may be missing something. If there's been several years since anything noteworthy happened, capping the year makes sense, but only if that's the case, as if we are going to have future coverage we will just have to move this again. (and I am concerned having an "end date" might discourage future additions, if there are to be any.) ASUKITE 15:27, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Unless there is new information to add to the timeline, there is no reason for this proposed move, in fact it is possibly misleading. According to our current article, the ALF is Active in over 40 countries, but the reference given for that claim is a primary source from 2006. Again, this raises the question of whether there is any encyclopedic action to report since 2016. There is a possibility that we are giving undue weight to what is now a defunct organisation. Fix that first. Then look at the timeline article name if necessary. Note also that we have three timelines already, not counting Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions. Andrewa (talk) 14:08, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning oppose. Given the apparent uncertainty as to whether there are (or will be) post-2016 events suitable for inclusion this list, I would rather err on the side of keeping the article scope less restricted. But I think it would be appropriate to revisit this in a few years, or if there's evidence that the movement is verifiably defunct. Colin M (talk) 21:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Catlemur: You tagged this timeline as incomplete on 29 August 2017. Are you aware of any reported ALF actions that have not been included in the timeline? If you are, please tell us what you know. If not, please remove your tag. Thanks, wbm1058 (talk) 17:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Timeline of Earth Liberation Front actions avoids this issue by keeping the actions in a single timeline. Their last publicised action was in 2009. Four timeline articles seems a bit much to me.
- List of acts claimed by the ALF was created by SlimVirgin at 22:30, 24 March 2007‎
- Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 1976–1999 was split from Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions on 13 March 2008, reducing its size from 106,021 to 81,190 bytes
- Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 2000–2004 was split from Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions on 14 March 2008‎, reducing its size from 88,377 to 50,700 bytes
- Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 1976–1999 currently uses 21,111 bytes
- Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 2000–2004 currently uses 18,195 bytes
- Timeline of Animal Liberation Front actions, 2005–present currently uses 88,466 bytes
- Combined total is 127,772 bytes. WP:SIZERULE applies less strongly to list articles. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Wbm1058: If you're suggesting merging them all back together again, then I'd support that. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Done wbm1058 (talk) 23:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.