Talk:Titanic (1997 film)/Archive 4

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Academy Awards Records

The only Three famous films reached an equaled record and won 11 oscars in the past of the Academy, Ben-Hur, Titanic and The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King, but, beetween this three films Titanic reached above nominations for 14 categories, Ben-Hur and The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King achieved 12 and 11 nominees respectively.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Right, but you cannot use the language that was stated. It violates the WP:PEACOCK policy. It's extremely verbose and is wholly unnecessary. It's up to the reader to decide which adjectives to use for the film's succcess. That said, the prior revision clearly stated the accolade. BalticPat22Patrick (talk) 19:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with BalticPat22 and Betty. I don't see how this version is better than the current version. The current version already makes everything clear. Further, your version removed production/debut information...and Titanic is not the only film to be nominated for fourteen Academy Awards. There is also All About Eve, as the Accolades section acknowledges. Flyer22 (talk) 22:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Bakhshi82, you have to stop adding statements such as "Titanic turn into the most successful motion picture in the history of the Academy Awards, the only film that received most winners and nominees," not only because it is bad wording (typos or whatever), and weasel-wording, but also because it is unsourced and inaccurate. How is Titanic "the most successful motion picture in the history of the Academy Awards" when there is also All About Eve? I see you haven't even responded to the All About Eve bit I mentioned. Why are you so adamant on saying that "Titanic was the best movie ever" in the lead, when its success is already adequately summarized? If you continue this unconstructive editing which goes against WP:Consensus and other Wikipedia rules/guidelines, and without discussion, I will be reporting you. Flyer22 (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Manual of Style (film)

I made this edit with the following reasoning: (Ring Cinema, it should not be in the first paragraph, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (film)#Lead section. Further, it doesn't adequately summarize the film's awards success or say what it "equaled." Not trying to anatgonize; only following WP.

Editor Ring Cinema reverted me, with the following reasoning: That's your 2d rev Flyer and I hope your last. Please note this edit is already accepted by editors here. The fact is very notable. Thanks.)

As Ring Cinema's edit above makes no sense in comparison to my argument, I feel that this is a clear case of reverting out of spite. Ring Cinema and I got into a previous disagreement recently (see #Supporting roles and Cameron's intentions in the lead above), and it became very heated and uncivil. His edit above goes against the film style, and I cited why it does, and that it is inadequate; it doesn't say how it "equaled" other awards. And leaves out the film's 14 Academy Award nominations, which is just as important to mention since only two films (including Titanic) have been nominated for that many. The 11 wins are pretty rare too. He says "Please note this edit is already accepted by editors here." He assumes that just because Editor Betty did not revert him that this means she agrees that the awards should be mentioned so early. The only other editor he could have been referring to is Editor Bakhshi82, who has displayed unconstructive editing in the lead, and is what led to this new dispute between Ring Cinema and I (see #Academy Awards Records above).

I ask that other editors weigh in on this. It is clear that Ring Cinema and I will continue to be at odds with each other at this article. Flyer22 (talk) 19:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The film's accolades are almost unique, so I think as a matter of editorial judgment that we should not bury that information. It is highly notable. Naturally, the peacock language has to be avoided. My idea is to put this important information about the film's honors above material that doesn't place the film in its historical context. This is in keeping with the guidelines. Unfortunately, Flyer's response to my edit was needlessly personal and seemed to suggest I am not editing in good faith, which is incorrect. While opinions may differ, I think this way of handling the material is the right one. Are there other opinions? Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It is highly notable, just as the fact that the film became the highest-grossing film of all-time is notable, which is mentioned in the final paragraph. There is no valid reason that the film's success should be split into two different parts of the lead. And as I stated above, your revision doesn't even clarify how it equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and Oscars. And it being "highly notable" does not mean it should come first. We have style guidelines here at Wikipedia that should be followed. I have reason to suspect you are revering out of spite. You claim otherwise. Oh well. Flyer22 (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you think it's necessary to place the Oscar accolades in the first paragraph of the lead? I think the reading flow would be much better if the wording were to be placed alongside the film's box office accomplishments, as it is in the last paragraph of the lead. The wording that is there right now is fine IMO, but I don't see why it needs to be in the very first paragraph of the lead section. That's usually reserved for summarizing the film, itself and it looks rather weird and out of place. BalticPat22Patrick (talk) 19:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It's important to note its historical place to recognize the reasons for its notability. Its honors are almost unique. Cameron's story design, while it belongs in the article somewhere, doesn't really have that and seems a bit tone deaf to the film's historical place. Perhaps the box office record should be at the top as well. That makes a certain amount of sense, too. Do you think that would do a better job of showing the film's place in history? Thanks for your thoughts. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's not overlook that the film's records for Academy Awards have not been surpassed, while its box office mark is no longer number one. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It being the first film to gross 1 billion at the box office is unique as well. Why should the awards information be separated from the rest of the film's success at the box office? You haven't given any valid reason for reverting me or going against the film guide. Cameron's story design is not what this discussion is about. That discussion is above if you want to continue it there, but I have already stated my thoughts on that, and why it belongs in the lead. This discussion should remain on-topic. Flyer22 (talk) 22:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It is important to note historical importance, but as far as awards go what makes the awards it won more important than the money it earns and the records it broke at the box office? It seems odd that since a lead should reflect a summary of the page that information in the lead would be in a different sequential order than the rest of the page. It seems as though more weight is being placed on the awards it won than any other part of the article, and that's certainly not keeping a neutral eye about things (IMO). Also, given the fact that only Academy Awards and Oscars are mentioned over any other award. That's rather American-centric instead of English-Centric as we should strive to be. I don't believe that treating this page like every other page is (or is supposed to be) treated hurts this page at all. There is a reason we try and aim for consistency in certain areas, and I don't see how this film is special enough that we need to ignore the guideline.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm mostly in agreement with Bignole here. To clarify my position, I felt the original structure was superior, bringing in the oscars along with the box office at the end of the lead, and we just needed to clarify the nature of the records. The oscars aren't any more notable than the box office records (in fact the box office was peerless while the oscar records weren't), and I would argue that box office takes precedence over award ceremonies anyway, so I don't see the argument for promoting them to the opening paragraph. That said, I thought Ring Cinema's edits were an acceptable compromise if it put an end to Bakhshi's disruption, but if other editors are not happy with the changes then it should go back to how it was and Bakshi should come to the talk page and discuss his edits. Betty Logan (talk) 21:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with both of you, Bignole and Betty. On the first objection (why awards instead of box office?), there are two things I would consider. First, the box office record has been surpassed, so it's less important today. Secondly, awards usually get more prominence because it is recognition by experts who have themselves taken popularity into account. Is it Americentric to mention Oscars? Well, obviously it is, so if there are other equally prestigious awards, by all means let's mention them. The Oscar wins were already in the lead so apparently there is some existing consensus on that. All that said, I was looking to improve the article and find a compromise that gives the reader a sense of the very high position the film occupies in history. I'm sure that's what Bakhshi's concern is and to some extent he has a point. The truly weird thing about the lead right now is the prominence given to Cameron's story design. That completely misses the point about the film's prominence. But sometimes we have to compromise. Thanks for your thoughts. --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

If you agree with Bignole and Betty, then you also agree with me and BalticPat22. And four editors agreeing, even if we were without your agreement, means your edit should be reverted; and I will do that after seeing if more editors weigh in. I just stated this above, but though the box office record has been surpassed, the film still stands as the first film to gross 1 billion. It is also one of the rare films to be nominated for 14 Academy Awards and win 11 of them; that should be mentioned in the lead as well, but your edit took that away. Bakhshi82's concern is without merit, as the lead already "gives the reader a sense of the very high position the film occupies in history." Bakhshi82's edits included inaccuracies, POV-wording/weasel wording, and unsourced material. And as for Cameron's intentions for the story being in the lead, no, that is not weird, per the past discussion about that. Nor is it given a lot of prominence. It is the same thing done on other GA and FA film articles. We've been over that. And this discussion is not about that. This discussion is about whether or not your edits are good enough to go against the Wikipedia film Manual of Style. Flyer22 (talk) 22:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

What we're discussing is how to improve the article and find a way that accommodates several views. Today I offered a compromise to an ongoing disagreement where it seemed there was something of merit in the claims of both sides. I tried to balance things in a way that would improve the article. I think it is a pretty good try, and when Betty changed it, I didn't revert her but offered an edit to her edit. Maybe she didn't like it, but that's the process and I think it worked out okay. But again one editor refuses to compromise. I'm not sure if everyone is mindful of WP:OWN, but it might be worth reviewing. The process at Wikipedia involves finding a way that accounts for different opinions. As it says in the policy pages, "If you do not want your writing to be edited... then do not submit it here." I'm working honestly within the process and to best of my knowledge am not violating any guidelines or the manual of style. Although the compromise I'm offering might not be perfect, in some ways it improves the article, so that's probably a plus. Thanks again. --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I ask that you stop changing the heading, per WP:TALK: "To avoid disputes it is best to discuss a heading change with the editor who started the thread, if possible, when a change is likely to be controversial." This is the heading that best describes this discussion, as you actually were going against the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (film)#Lead section. To state that you weren't violating it is false. Plain and simple. This is the heading I also linked to elsewhere, which is also why it should be maintained. This discussion is clearly about whether or not your version should be employed over the Wikipedia film Manual of Style. WP:Consensus says that it shouldn't be. You act as though I refuse to compromise with you, when I have compromised with you time and time again in our recent interactions; even today when restoring two of your edits. It is not WP:OWN to follow Wikipedia rules and guidelines. Flyer22 (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and shortened the title to just "Manual of Style (film)" (and will do so elsewhere), since you feel that the previous one with "Going against" in it is too antagonizing/accusatory. Flyer22 (talk) 00:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Film's "Lead section" guidelines are not binding. They are recommendations of how to write the lead section. We can look to the general lead section guidelines (at MOS:LEAD), and WP:MOSBEGIN says, "The first paragraph should define the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being overly specific." I think that saving mention of the awards for later is more appropriate. It is not any less notable when placed later, and it is arguably better-placed because one has an idea about the film's background before learning that it won awards. I think that it is typical to have a definitive first paragraph and to have a rough chronological flow for the rest of the overview. If controversy happened during production, it would be in the middle paragraph about the film's making. If controversy happened upon release, it would be in the last paragraph as part of the reception. Erik (talk | contribs) 00:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's a guideline and not a policy, Erik. I just happen to agree with that guideline, and Wikipedia style guidelines should generally be followed. There are not many valid arguments to go against them, such as headings of sections, etc. And I don't see any other film article placing the awards information first, unless it describes the film as Award-winning (which shouldn't be done either). And, of course, I agree with your opinion on this matter. That is exactly why I prefer the critical reception/commercial success/awards information to come last. Thank you for weighing in, as always. Flyer22 (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, Erik. A couple things you said aren't exactly right. First of all, it's incorrect to say that a later mention is less notable. More important things come before less important things and I think that's so well understood that there's no good reason to deny it. Maybe you meant something else. Secondly, it's not accurate that awards do not belong in the first paragraph. In fact, the guidelines contemplate that sometimes awards will be noted in the first paragraph (they state that later paragraphs "should cover important aspects of the film... not mentioned already," including "awards"). Thirdly, you seem to say that readers can't understand the importance of a film being the most honored by the Academy in its history without learning something else about the film first. That doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny; an obituary wouldn't delay mentioning an actor's awards until we know more about him. In fact, it's well known that as a rule Academy Awards are mentioned in the first sentence of actor obituaries. But the main point here is that we are trying to find a way that accommodates differing views. My compromise was to eliminate the peacock language (per Betty and Flyer) but give the award material more prominence (per Bakhshi). And, in fact, the exceptional accomplishment of the film's honors probably shouldn't be buried in a paragraph about its release since it's a pretty distinctive thing to have a share of that record for Oscars (they are still considered the highest honor for a filmmaker). Thanks for your thoughts, but your reasons for rejecting my compromise don't hold up. Do you have a better compromise? --Ring Cinema (talk) 02:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your reasoning, your interpretation of the Manual of Style, or why you're still debating this. Above, you said that you agree with Bignole and Betty. Well, they pretty much stated the same thing that myself, BalticPat22 and Erik stated. Five editors have now given valid reasons for why the awards should not come so early on, and why mention of the film's success should not be split into two parts. And even if we were to put all the critical/commercial/awards success together in the first paragraph, I'm still not seeing how that would make more sense than it coming last. All that stuff coming last ends the lead properly, with sort of en exclamation mark as to why the film is such a success. It makes more sense to give the introduction first, go into the inspiration and production detail next, and end it with the film's achievements. Erik said the material is not any less notable when placed later, and he's right. In fact, it finishes off the lead in the best possible way. His, my, and others' arguments hold up because of that and because they comply with the Manual of Style for film articles and is exactly how every other film article is formatted here. Why you always feel the need to have this article deviate from what is expected of film articles here at Wikipedia is something I don't understand. It's like Bignole said above, "I don't believe that treating this page like every other page is (or is supposed to be) treated hurts this page at all. There is a reason we try and aim for consistency in certain areas, and I don't see how this film is special enough that we need to ignore the guideline." Flyer22 (talk) 03:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Approaching disruptive editing

I am watching for one of our editors to propose a compromise that recognizes the good points made by all. Can he do it or is it too hard for him? Some people aren't smart enough to handle the challenge. Perhaps he has learned to compromise or perhaps he is too intransigent to be a good Wikipedia editor. Let's see if he can pass the test. In the meantime, Erik, I am waiting for your response. --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:19, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure who you're speaking of, though I think I know who (unless by "he," you mean us in general). If you're speaking of me, I remind you that I am female, and also won't respond to such a tone. If you mean Bakhshi82, then, yes, he (maybe even she) should weigh in. But what Bakhshi82 wants in the lead is completely different than your proposal. Bakhshi82 is all about stating that Titanic is the most awarded film in the history of the Oscars, with the most nominations ever, disregarding (and now ignoring) that this is not true when taking into account All About Eve. Bakhshi82 just seems very unfamiliar with how Wikipedia works, and clearly needs more Wiki-training. His inexperience should not hinder this article. For example, I stand by the fact that the film being nominated for 14 Academy Awards and winning 11, which is such a rare feat for any film, should specifically be mentioned in the lead. And Bakhshi82 most definitely wanted mention of this in the lead, but with the inaccurate and hyped slant to it. But, yes, despite the current consensus on this talk page, we can wait and see if Bakhshi82 has anything else to state on this matter or edit-wars some more. Flyer22 (talk) 04:44, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I changed again based on the how wiki works. Buddies, if each of you have any objection let's talk together--Bakhshi82 (talk) 12:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that is not how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia especially does not go against WP:Consensus. And unlike what WikiProject Film says should be done, WP:Consensus is a policy, not a guideline. Did you even read what I stated above? I clearly stated:

Bakhshi82, you have to stop adding statements such as "Titanic turn into the most successful motion picture in the history of the Academy Awards, the only film that received most winners and nominees," not only because it is bad wording (typos or whatever), and weasel-wording, but also because it is unsourced and inaccurate. How is Titanic "the most successful motion picture in the history of the Academy Awards" when there is also All About Eve? I see you haven't even responded to the All About Eve bit I mentioned. Why are you so adamant on saying that "Titanic was the best movie ever" in the lead, when its success is already adequately summarized? If you continue this unconstructive editing which goes against WP:Consensus and other Wikipedia rules/guidelines, and without discussion, I will be reporting you.

Yep, I will be reporting you now. And Ring Cinema, like I stated before, your version of the lead clearly has no connection to Bakhshi82, as even he disagrees with it...as I knew he would (due to seeing his edits/rationale clearly and past experience with such newbie editors). I told you what he wanted, and that edit shows it. So waiting for Erik's response is irrelevant. Bakhshi82 cannot be reasoned with on this. If you plan to go against WP:Consensus, reverting me again once I restore the lead to the way it should be, let me know now. Because as WP:Consensus is a policy, it is not a matter of debate. Flyer22 (talk) 15:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Flyer, you are attributing views to others to pretend that you have agreement with your view. You even try to claim that I agree with editors when I said I didn't. Not only is that dishonest and impolite, it indicates the poverty to your argument. Since there is no consensus we have to work toward it. We need to hear a compromise that's acceptable to all. That's the process here. Since you, Flyer, rejected my compromise that was otherwise acceptable, I think you have to offer something better. I look forward to that. Until you do, my offer is the best on the table. Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no pretending going on. Five editors have clearly agreed with me that the awards do not belong early on in the lead, and that the film's success should not be split into two parts in the lead. You said you agreed with two editors who pretty much stated the same thing (you said, and I quote, "I agree with both of you, Bignole and Betty."), even though it is clear that you do not agree and are now claiming that I am lying about something that you clearly stated above. If you did not agree with them, you shouldn't have stated it. Furthermore, editors have agreed that Bakhshi82's edits do not belong in the lead, for various reasons. There is clear WP:Consensus, on both fronts, and to claim otherwise is what is dishonest. We do not need to compromise with Bakhshi82, as it is clear that Bakhshi82 is unwilling to compromise. Violating WP:3RR in the way that he has, and all the while going against WP:Consensus, is unacceptable, and I am in the process of reporting that. Saying that your offer is "the best on the table" when five editors (six, if you count Bakhshi82) disagree is also dishonest. Flyer22 (talk) 16:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems that it is generally accepted a compromise of some sort is required, and it is just the prominence and wording that is the point of contention. However, do we have a clear consensus to reject Bakhshi's rewording in its entirety? It is poorly written and peacocky, and it seems to me we should be trying to find a compromise between RingCinema's and Flyer's versions. I'd like to take Bakhshi's version out of the equation if possible, because this is developing into a Mexican stand-off. If we have two clear alternative versions that we can put to impartial editors, then maybe we can move this thing forward. Betty Logan (talk) 16:20, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Betty, Bakhshi is clearly not willing to compromise. I saw his message on your talk page. He is a huge fan who wants inaccuracies and POV/weasel-wording in the lead. And, yes, consensus is clearly against that. Even if it wasn't, guidelines and polices are against it. And as Bakhshi has rejected any edits but his own, five editors are against or would rather avoid Ring Cinema's version, I am not seeing why the article should not be returned back to the way it was. Flyer22 (talk) 16:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted him again because there is no clear support for his version, and he constantly refuses to discuss the issue. WP:CONSENSUS requires an editor to discuss their edits when they are challenged, and until he does his version lies beyond consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 20:46, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, Betty, I noticed that Bakhshi altered the wording away from "the most," to "one of the most successful motion pictures in the history of the Academy Awards" (though I had to tweak his typos), so maybe he is listening more than we think; his version no longer had the inaccuracies in it; it's now become just weasel-wordy, because of the "one of the most successful" and "in the history of" parts. I'm not sure what will work for Bakhshi other than that, since even the original wording of "was an enormous critical and commercial success" was not enough for him. However, though I disagree with his edits, his new version is a lot closer to the consensus reached on this talk page regarding the lead. So I would have preferred a revert back to the original wording, or the "was released to critical and commercial success" wording...instead of this. Flyer22 (talk) 21:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be best to restore the lead to the last stable version and hammer out the wording here, because none of the alterations have gained support so far. Betty Logan (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Most of the alterations, such as the one you restored to, haven't gained support, but the original version -- no awards so early on in the lead -- has support/consensus. Whether the original version or my alteration. This discussion has not been a straw-man vote. There were valid reasons given. There is no valid reason, however, that I can see for keeping this "awards at the top" version over the version that five editors support. It's not even a compromise for Bakhshi. So leaving that version in, as though it is still some attempt at a compromise with Bakhshi, is without merit. I understand your reasoning behind waiting. I'm just saying that I don't see that we need more editors to say, "Yes, remove the awards from the top," especially since I doubt any more editors are going to weigh in on this matter. Maybe one more at most. Flyer22 (talk) 22:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Flyer, I'm looking for your compromise. Where is it? --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Uh, a compromise for what? It is clear that no one is for your version. No one. Five editors are against it. And so is the style guideline. A recent editor even thinks it's weird. You claim that maintaining your version of the lead was to appease Bakhshi. Well, Bakhshi has rejected your change and is not willing to compromise. So why are you still trying to compromise? Why does there need to be a compromise? There is nothing wrong with the original version, and five editors support that original version. It seems now you're asking for a compromise with you, seeing as everyone else is okay with the "no awards at the top" version. Flyer22 (talk) 00:29, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Flyer, I didn't revert to RingCinema's version because I necessarily agree with his version, or that I believe his should stay in place in lieu of a consensus, but because his version was the last version that didn't violate policy. If your version had been the most recent I would have reverted to that. Bakhshi has been reported for edit-warring, so it needs to be clear exactly what we are reverting for the investigating admin. If massive chunks of Ring Cinema's legitimate (albeit currently disputed) edits are reverted then it just looks like a content dispute rather than policy infringement. Ring Cinema still needs to obtain a consensus for his edits, but let's deal with one issue at a time. Betty Logan (talk) 23:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Betty, I know your stance on this, and understand your reasoning. I was just stating my feelings. Flyer22 (talk)

Flyer, I am simply trying to edit the article the way we're supposed to. As far as I can tell, there were some objections to my proposal but I've answered them adequately. There's no perfect solution and nothing we do here is final. If you have made a compromise proposal I missed it, so I am asking for it. I notice that you have repeatedly misstated the views of other editors, including mine, which reflects badly on your claims of support. (I notice you recruited editors to support you too, which also makes your claims of support somewhat suspect.) Still, if you have a better compromise, I am open to it. That's how the process works here. So, please, offer your proposal that will be acceptable to the editors of the page. That's your job as an editor here. And give up the hostility, which is not productive. Thanks very much. --Ring Cinema (talk) 00:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

If you are all for editing the article the way we're supposed to, then you would have followed the style guideline. You keeping going on and on about compromise...when Bakhshi is not willing to compromise and when consensus has already been reached. So the only person we could quite possibly be trying to compromise with now is you. Your version has already been rejected. I have repeatedly misstated the views of others by saying they said the lead should not have the awards at the top? That's what they stated! You stated you agreed with two of them. Don't say it if you don't mean it. Clearly, I have not lied about/misstated anything! Are we supposed to pretend to be blind for you now? The statements are right there above. The fact that you are willing to be dishonest in the way you are being now speaks volumes about your character. And as for recruiting others to support me, I asked the film project to weigh in, which is what you're supposed to do. They did. I had no way of knowing if they would support me or not. I asked one editor, Bignole, to weigh in. I did not tell him to support me or see things the way I do. He just happens to agree with me, like four other editors. Your job as a Wikipedia editor is to follow guidelines and policies. Five editors have already stated a version that is acceptable. 5 to your 1. Just because you disagree...does not mean we have to come up with a version that will please you. Flyer22 (talk) 01:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

As has been pointed out repeatedly, my proposal does not violate the guidelines. So that's just wrong. If that's what's bothering you, you can rest easy. My edit is fine on that. As far as I know, I have answered the other objections adequately. Concerning Bakhshi, it's not relevant to our discussion that he doesn't want to compromise. We are still free to be good editors and do what's required. When you were the lone editor objecting, we listened to your views and offered ways to accommodate them. So, you see, just because you disagree doesn't mean we have to come up with a version that will please you. Per WP:OWN, none of us is the final arbiter. I would like you to offer a compromise that you think will be acceptable to everyone, because that is how this process works. Or, if you think my version below is acceptable, I'm pretty sure we can move forward with it despite the fact that both of us dislike certain elements included. What's your preference? --Ring Cinema (talk) 02:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Why do you keep denying that you violated the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (film)#Lead section? You clearly did, as displayed by myself and others. Bignole, like me, outright states that you have. Read above, where he makes this clear toward the end of his comment. No amount of your interpreting the guideline will get around the fact that if you were correct, all other film articles would have the awards information in the first paragraph. But they don't. They all have that information last. All other editors would have agreed with you. But they didn't. They have clearly agreed with me that the awards should not be placed in that first paragraph, and that success of the film should not be separated into two separate parts. The way Wikipedia works is that you try to gain consensus for your changes if those changes are disputed. I have gained consensus for wanting to restore the lead back to the way it was. You have not gained consensus for your versions. Continuing to act as though there is still debate to be had, or a compromise to be made, is detrimental, I feel. If Bakhsh is not relevant to our discussion anymore, then why are we still having it? Because it is now about compromising with you? If it is now about compromising with you, as I stated that it must be, then make that clear. I have never been the lone editor at this article objecting. Even in our previous discussion/debate about the lead (supporting roles and Cameron's intentions), I had support. You had support as well, and, yes, we compromised. A compromise does not always have to be made, however. In this recent discussion/debate about the lead, I listened to your points again, and I have disagreed with them. I am not willing to compromise if it means having the awards information first. That's my preference -- the awards not being so early on in the lead; that they be beside the film's other success instead, in the final paragraph.

I started discussion about this (your version of the lead) because I wanted to gain consensus. I did. Are you now going to fight that consensus? If so, then maybe we should bring in an authority figure to look at the discussion and make the call. If I go and restore to the consensus version and you revert me, then what was the point of even having this discussion...if WP:Consensus, a policy, will not be adhered to? You act as though we should keep on debating until there is consensus for your version instead. The thing about WP:Consensus is that not all editors are going to get their way. If an administrator must be brought in to make this call, as to whether or not consensus has been achieved and should therefore be upheld, then I will do that. Either way, since your version is disputed, it does not belong in the lead until it has achieved WP:Consensus. The old version should be restored because it is the version prior to all this most recent debating about the lead, and is one that is not disputed. Flyer22 (talk) 06:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I took this matter to Wikipedia talk:Consensus#WP:Consensus at Talk:Titanic (1997 film)#Manual of Style (film), and if they don't help, I'll take it somewhere else. Bringing in a lone administrator is not the best idea, as all they can usually do in content disputes is give their opinion. But if they recognize policy and say it should be upheld, and revert any edit that goes against policy, then that may not be a sour option after all. Flyer22 (talk) 22:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Let me say again, I offered a compromise on two separate occasions that tries to account for all the viewpoints. If anyone wants to offer a draft that does a better job, I think most of the editors here are open to that. I believe that is how we should proceed. It doesn't work to say that no compromise is possible or necessary. --Ring Cinema (talk) 00:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Let me state this again: No one is for your version of the lead, which is why it should be reverted back to the version that most editors here are okay with. Your version is disputed and should not be there at all. You have to gain consensus for your version! You haven't! That is the way Wikipedia works. That is why your version (either version) is not the best alternative. The best alternative would be to go with the version most editors here agree with. And if I were to restore to the consensus version, I would be following policy. If you were to revert me, on the other hand, you would be violating policy. Really, what valid reason would you have for reverting me? What would your edit summary say? "Tsk, tsk, Flyer, we must compromise, per talk"? If so, that would be without merit. In what way is it valid that your version should stay in over the consensus version? If you do revert me, I will report it. Plain and simple. Call it a threat or whatever, but I will report it accordingly -- as a violation of WP:Consensus. I'm not sure what you think WP:Consensus entails, but it does not entail that one must compromise first or at all. If we go by your rules, that I cannot restore the article to the consensus version, that five editors agree with, all because we must first satisfy you, then the WP:Consensus policy would be pretty much moot, wouldn't it? What would be the point of achieving consensus if no one followed it, or if one editor was allowed to keep it from being carried out because they disagree with it? Right now, you are blocking the consensus version of the lead. Again, I ask how does a compromise need to be made? This discussion all started because you said you wanted to make a compromise with a different editor. Now it is clear that that editor rejects your compromise. Now you are saying that we must compromise with you? Why are you acting as though consensus lies with you? That it is not consensus until you agree? That we have to discard the current consensus because you disagree with it? You are always challenging something about Wikipedia's setup -- whether it be the style guideline (headings, other formatting, etc.) or policy. You always act as though those things don't matter, and that we must make our own editorial judgment. And the first instance I saw this of you on this talk page was at #"Pre-production" vs. "Pre-Production". That, plus your recent debates/arguments, is why I know you don't follow Wikipedia precedent, guidelines and policies all that well. Flyer22 (talk) 01:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I only read as far as "no one is in favor of your edit." If you mean the everyone finds something in it they don't approve of, then you're right. But I think you're still falsely claiming that I'm the only editor who is okay with my proposal. You don't like it, but I don't like your edit, etc. It's a compromise. When are you going to offer your own compromise? Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 03:17, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This is going in circles, as usual with you. You keep ignoring WP:Consensus, which is what I was looking for when I started this discussion. And is what I got. I wasn't looking for a compromise. I don't have to offer a compromise. The fact that you keep saying one is needed to satisfy you pretty much says we cannot restore to the version that has consensus because you are dissatisfied with it. That's not how Wikipedia works, as I have stated more than once now. You can bring up "okay with your version" all you want, but "being indifferent to" is not the same thing as supporting it. And it is clear that no editor here supports your version over the original one. The consensus version isn't even "my edit" (all I did was tweak it); it is the version that has been in this article for the longest now, based on the Wikipedia film style guideline and precedent set in all other film articles. You have yet to provide a valid reason for why your disputed version should remain over the consensus version. I will be restoring to the consensus version. If you revert, I will be reporting that, I'm letting you know now; and it can only be a good thing because then we will get some editor assistance in dealing with what are and what are not guideline and policy violations. Flyer22 (talk) 03:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

There is no consensus. My edit has the advantage of attempting to include all viewpoints. If you can do better, let's see it. If you can't, then this is the best edit we've got. Please show what a great editor you are by putting together a compromise edit that attempts to incorporate the main concerns. That's what I did. Until you do that, you're not doing what a good editor does. You seem to be violating WP:OWN, which I do not recommend as it is policy. --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Read WP:Consensus. When editors get together to decide on what is best for an article and most agree on the same thing, that is WP:Consensus. How many times do I have to state that five editors have agreed on one version? They did. You cannot sit here and say that they didn't. All of them (myself included) said that the old version is better, or is the "far more superior one." I got consensus for restoring the lead back to the old version. You will need to gain consensus for your version before implementing it, per policy. How does your version have "the advantage of attempting to include all viewpoints," when five of those viewpoints are not for your version, including the editor's viewpoint you claim you were originally trying to include? Your version only has the advantage of pleasing you. If others other than yourself were saying they were dissatisfied with the lead, I would see your point. But right now, it is only you. I am not violating WP:OWN by upholding policy. Flyer22 (talk) 04:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Redundancy in the introduction, awards and success

It's redundant to say "The film equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and Oscars" because the 'Oscars' are a common informal nickname for the Academy Awards. I will volunteer to make these changes.JRC3 (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2011

There are two distinct records here—nominations and wins—and neither were broken, they were just matched. I'm all for removing redundancy, but it's important not to alter the underlying meaning. I see where the misunderstanding came from though, it should distinguish between nominations and wins a bit more explicitly. Betty Logan (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

An Oscar is only given for a win, so the only way to think that it's redundant is not to know the meaning of the words. How could it be more explicit? --Ring Cinema (talk) 01:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, an editor misinterpreted the sentence so it's something we should at least consider. In the previous version it was explicitly stated that it received 14 nominations and won 11 oscars which probably helped clarify that they are two distinct records. Betty Logan (talk) 06:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but isn't it redundant to say they received Oscars and that they won them? That one editor misunderstood it overlooks the many who didn't. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Here we go again. You edit warring over the smallest of things, and yet again trying to have your version in the lead out of spite. There is no other reason that you would be edit warring so consistently, and over weaker versions of the lead. Do you like battling me or something? You take a break, and then come right back at it. You again provided a weak argument, and your version is nothing but the version you fought so hard to keep in the lead earlier...except now it is placed lower. WP:Consensus is actually for my version -- keeping specific mention of the nominations and awards -- per below. How is your version "perfectly clear" when it is clearly not "perfectly clear" to the editor who started this section, and when it does not specify how it equaled awards? As Betty touched on above, explicitly stating that it received 14 nominations and won 11 Oscars helps to clarify. It also helps to emphasize and specifically state its success, something you said you were actually trying to do in compromising with another editor. I have once again showed myself to compromise with you, while you have once again showed that things must be your way. To put it simply, your version is sloppy -- naming and linking Academy Awards and Oscars when they go to the same exact article, and parting the box office information away from it, when it actually flows better with it. Really, what valid reason do you have for having the lead state "equaled awards" without specifying how that is -- the films it tied with? And why do we need to mention that it "equaled awards" when that information is covered in detail lower in the article? Mentioning specific nominations and Oscars is done for all other film articles, and you are again trying to have the Titanic film article deviate. You say, "That one editor misunderstood it overlooks the many who didn't." I ask, "What many?" You version was newly added, and just because people did not pour in here after it was added, complaining about it being redundant, does not mean "many" agree with you.

Sigh. I'm bringing in other editors yet again. And am possibly simply going to report this as a possible WP:Consensus violation. Flyer22 (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

More accusations of bad faith for no reason. This is your fantasy. I'm editing the article, you're pretending you own it and any alteration to your edits is warring. Why do you want to include misleading material? Seems like a strange choice to me. --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. My reasons are above and all over this talk page. No fantasy at all. The only one owning it is you. You put your same damn disputed version back in the lead!! And with this edit, are you kidding me?!! You are extremely ridiculous. The fact that it became the highest-grossing film should not be mentioned in the lead, even though this is a huge aspect of its success, is mentioned lower, and is specifically stated in both areas that it was surpassed? That is not misleading at all. Like I stated, I am bringing in other editors and will be reporting you. I am, quite simply, tired of your crap. Flyer22 (talk) 21:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The dispute was not about the accuracy of this material, but about which paragraph to place it. Everyone understood that (with perhaps one exception). So don't even go there. Betty also endorsed this copy -- in fact, I got the facts from her. In the meantime, it would be great if you'd stop warring with anyone who tries to edit you and try to improve the article. --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Read above. #Manual of Style (film) and elsewhere. Yes, the dispute was about the accuracy of the statement. It was also about following the precedent that all other film articles go by, which all the editors, except you, agreed with. Either way, my version of the lead was approved. Your version, which included the wording I specifically disputed, was not. Betty did not endorse that wording. Betty just didn't object to it. Don't put words into her mouth. And she most certainly did not agree to the removal of stating that the film became the highest-grossing film of all time. So while I'm reporting you...in the meantime, it would be great if you would at least try to provide rationale reasoning for your changes, instead of WP:ILIKEIT. Flyer22 (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Looking at your edit again, I actually don't have a problem with your "became the highest-grossing film of all time" removal, since your version still makes clear that the film was the highest-grossing until Avatar. But I did tweak it, by adding "of all time" to the end of it and encasing it back into the highest-grossing films link.

I still have a problem with the Academy Awards wording, though, for the reasons already mentioned. It is simply better to state the specific number of nominations and wins, especially in this case...since this is a rare achievement. "Equaling awards" does not specify anything, and is not unique. Flyer22 (talk) 01:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't say "equaling awards" anywhere. --Ring Cinema (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

That particular description of your edit is obviously just my wordplay. The fact remains that your "equaled" wording does not specify anything, and is not unique. Plenty of films have equaled each other for nominations or wins. The least your version could do is name the films Titanic tied with. If it's not even going to do that, saying that Titanic "equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and Oscars" is quite useless. Needless to say, you're sticking by your version out of stubborness. Flyer22 (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the history of the feud here. I just made the sentence " equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and wins," which is unambiguous. It looks clumsy to use both "Academy Awards" and "Oscars" together in the same sentence, and any distinction is lost on most people who don't read Variety every day. Barsoomian (talk) 02:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Despite the snarky remark about Variety, it's widely known around the world that an Oscar is that which one receives from the Academy when you go on stage and they hand you a statue. Nothing ambiguous about that. But I appreciate your interest in improving the article, Barsoomian. Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, Barsoomian. Your thoughts echo one of the objections to the wording. Academy Awards and Oscars are the same thing, and having a distinction made by having one end with "nominations" at the end clearly did not help. It was sloppy/clumsy. Your fix, however, helps, and I was going to suggest adding "wins" to the end of "Oscars" myself, but felt that I'd likely be reverted by Ring Cinema. When we're in dispute, it always takes another editor stepping in to make even the simplest edit that would otherwise be reverted if made by me. I still feel that the current wording is useless either way, per above, and goes against the consensus version of the lead. Flyer22 (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Compromise proposal for the lead

Titanic is a 1997 American epic romance and disaster film directed, written, co-produced, and co-edited by James Cameron. A fictionalized account of the sinking of the RMS Titanic, it stars Leonardo DiCaprio as Jack Dawson and Kate Winslet as Rose DeWitt Bukater, members of different social classes who fall in love aboard the ship during its ill-fated maiden voyage. The film equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and Oscars, receiving the prize for Best Picture and Best Director, and was the first film to gross a billion dollars at the box office.[7]

Cameron's inspiration for the film was predicated on his fascination with shipwrecks; he wanted to convey the emotional message of the tragedy, and felt that a love story interspersed with the human loss would be essential to achieving this. Production on the film began in 1995, when Cameron shot footage of the actual Titanic wreck. The modern scenes were shot on board the Akademik Mstislav Keldysh, which Cameron had used as a base when filming the wreck. A reconstruction of the Titanic was built at Playas de Rosarito, Baja California, and scale models and computer-generated imagery were also used to recreate the sinking. The film was partially funded by Paramount Pictures and 20th Century Fox – respectively, its American and international distributors – and at the time, it was the most expensive film ever made, with an estimated budget of $200 million.[3][4][5][6]

Post-production delays pushed back the film's release to December 19, 1997.[8] It was the highest-grossing film of all time (worldwide over $1.8 billion) until Cameron's next directorial effort, Avatar, surpassed it in 2010.[9][10] Titanic is also ranked as the sixth best epic film of all time in AFI's 10 Top 10 by the American Film Institute.[11] The film is due for theatrical re-release in 2012 after Cameron completes its conversion into 3-D.[12] --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This version is hardly different from your current one, and is still ripe with the issues five editors have with it, if not more so. Putting the billion dollar mark information so high, to go along with the awards stuff, doesn't help matters at all. I am obviously against it, per my and others' statements above. And as I stated there, why do we need a compromise? Five editors are for a specific layout, which includes no awards or success information mentioned in the first paragraph, no awards/general success information split up in two different parts. We are adhering to the style guideline, precedent, and practicality. What are you adhering to, besides what you want? As I stated above: "You claim that maintaining your version of the lead was to appease Bakhshi. Well, Bakhshi has rejected your change and is not willing to compromise. So why are you still trying to compromise? Why does there need to be a compromise? There is nothing wrong with the original version, and five editors support that original version. It seems now you're asking for a compromise with you, seeing as everyone else is okay with the 'no awards at the top' version."

I will eventually be restoring the consensus version, seeing as I created that discussion above to gain consensus, and I did. Flyer22 (talk) 00:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I took this matter to Wikipedia talk:Consensus#WP:Consensus at Talk:Titanic (1997 film)#Manual of Style (film), and if they don't help, I'll take it somewhere else. Bringing in a lone administrator is not the best idea, as all they can usually do in content disputes is give their opinion. But if they recognize policy and say it should be upheld, and revert any edit that goes against policy, then that may not be a sour option after all. Flyer22 (talk) 22:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• I think currently restoring the original version is the best course of action. MOSFILM intimates that reception should be covered later in the lead: "Succeeding paragraphs in the lead section should cover important aspects of the film...These include milestones or major events in the film's production, prominent themes, reception of the film by critics and audiences, box office grosses and milestones, controversies, summary of awards and honors...". Five editors (Flyer, BalticPat, Bignole, Erik and myself) all have a preference for abiding by MOS and bringing in the awards and box office much later. Titanic is a unique case so obviously there are grounds for treating everything differently, but the case has to be made for doing so and only one editor (Ring Cinema) wants to move the information. Bahkshi's issues are with the wording, not with the prominence of the information within the lede; if Bahkshi wants to make changes to the wording, then he should discuss them here first so we can make sure that the tone is encyclopedic. Given the heated nature of this discussion it is probably best that all changes in regards to this issue follow the WP:BRD protocol — make a change, but if that change is reverted don't restore the edit, take it to the talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 09:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Bakhshi seems to be compromising now, instead of restoring to his disputed wording. And though his edits are still a bit weasel-wordy, at least they are minor. I can live with his adding "particular" to the beginning of "critical acclaim." Flyer22 (talk) 13:49, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If that's your preference, Betty, that's fine with me. I'm surprised you're not troubled by Flyer's violations of policy. An editor who can't offer a compromise on a tough case isn't worth much. That's not going to be helpful in the future until she turns over a new leaf. --Ring Cinema (talk) 13:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. I haven't violated any policy. You cannot cite one that I have violated. Your opinion that I violated WP:OWN is without merit, especially since upholding policy is not a violation of it in any way. I, however, can cite that you violated the film style guideline on leads, and was attempting to violate the consensus policy. I have also displayed more than once that I can compromise, as I have compromised with you farther back, and recently (both in our previous debate about the lead and in your recent removal of the original release date from the lead). I have even now just compromised with Bakhshi. Just because I was not willing to make a compromise that keeps the awards information at the top, which only one editor wanted (you), does not mean that I cannot compromise. There is no guideline or policy that says compromises must always be made, that both sides must get their way all the time. What's not helpful are your antagonizing, insulting, and demeaning statements, like now, which is what you always do in debates and especially when you are not getting/don't get your way, and your refusals to follow guidelines/and or precedent. The fact that it took Betty stepping in and stating pretty much the same thing I already stated for you to say "that's fine with me" further shows that your insistence on your version of the lead and long-winded, redundant circling of guideline and policy was nothing but an attempt to spite me. Flyer22 (talk) 14:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Your actions speak for themselves. I hope the violations of WP:OWN will not be repeated. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Likewise. And if my actions were what you describe them as, others would have pointed out the same by now. So far, you have been the only consistent editor at this article called out as wrong. Flyer22 (talk) 17:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey guys... relax... I'll go to meet master Cameron as soon as possible, In the decade ahead i'll be the unique film scorer in the world by new rules with nearly one thousand orchestral performers and choir. We will make another better, Once upon a time in America or Titanic were only the beginning compositions in neoromanticism...--Bakhshi82 (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

That's nice, Bakhshi82. One of the good things about you is that you always seem to have a positive attitude, from the little interaction I've had with you. Flyer22 (talk) 17:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Towards a consensus

This article has been protected for a week so it would be a good idea to try and settle this before it comes out of protection.

• Bakhshi82's re-wording – Is there anyone in favour of Bakhshi82 weasel-worded, peacocky, POV re-wording? User: BalticPat22, User:Flyer22 and myself are all against his edits as can be seen at Talk:Titanic_(1997_film)#Academy_Awards_Records, so unless someone is in favor of retaining his edits then any future attempts should be rejected outright.

• Moving the box office and oscars to the first paragraph in the lead as per User:Ring Cinema – So far five editors are against the movement of this information based on the interpretation of WP:MOSFILM. Is there anyone at all in favor of moving this content to the first paragraph? If not, is there anyone in favor of making the information more prominent than it currently is, even if that does not involve moving it to the first paragraph?

It seems to me so far that the consensus (3/5 editors respectively) is for retaining the status quo over what have been unilateral edits. I think if any more changes are to be made to the article along the lines that have seen it placed into protection, then the editors who desire to make those changes really need to seek out support for their stance. Betty Logan (talk) 14:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll repeat my opposition to the peacock language. As I've mentioned before, I think a case can be made that the award records are deemphasized in the status quo edit since the accomplishment is unique in film history. It's not even brought out in the paragraph where it appears. Isn't it an historic achievement? And I apologize if my compromise bid was perceived as a unilateral edit, since it was intended as a proposal like any other edit and subject to discussion and re-edit. Lastly, I don't think 3/5 is a consensus as much as a straw poll. A true consensus will try to satisfy all viewpoints as I attempted to do. --Ring Cinema (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the record nature of the achievement should be "brought out" more regardless of whether the information is relocated; you are correct on that point. Personally I'm even open to moving the information up the lead, although not to the first paragraph since I think the first paragraph should solely define the film. I think it could be incorporated into the second paragraph ahead of the production information, since the box office/oscars are definitely more prominent information than the background production info. Is that something both you and Flyer would contemplate? Betty Logan (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

As stated up the talk page, WP:Consensus does not say that a true consensus must satisfy all viewpoints. The consensus reached above was/is not a straw poll. Everyone in favor of having the awards information come last gave very valid reasons for their positions; it was not a simple "Yay" or "Nay" matter. I stand by that position, Betty. I still feel that the awards information should stay alongside the rest of the film's achievements. To me, the achievements are brought out more prominently all placed together. As for placing it all together but having it come second, I cannot agree with that either. I like the order of the plot summary coming first, the background detail next, and the success of the film last. I feel that such a lead is superior, as you previously stated. I also like having this article follow precedent for film leads, and do not understand why it needs to deviate. And I don't understand how the "record nature of the achievement" is not adequately brought out, especially since it comes last alongside the film's other success and puts an "exclamation mark feeling" to the end of the lead. This whole discussion started because one editor (Bakhshi82) wanted to overstate Titanic's success. Before that, the lead was satisfactory to all, even though Ring Cinema still had/has an issue with Cameron's intentions for the story being in the lead, and that one editor (Bakhshi82) now seems satisfied with the lead. It wasn't even about placement for that editor. Thus, as I have stated more than once now, I don't understand a need for yet another compromise. Despite one editor's beliefs, there are simply going to be times when an editor doesn't want to agree to a compromise version that is felt to be less in quality, and so many editors stand by their opinions without compromising. This type of thing happens just as much as compromising on Wikipedia. I can compromise, yes, and I have done so at this article various times; it doesn't mean I will compromise every time. And there is nothing wrong with standing by one's opinion. Just as Ring Cinema stood by his.

Anyway, as I don't want to get into another heated debate with Ring Cinema about this, and it is clear that the two of us cannot reach a compromise on this matter, it is best to continue to employ the consensus that has been reached. I mean, how many more editors does it take to declare consensus if this is not a straw poll? Would we still be having this discussion if 10 editors had agreed on the same thing? How about 18? We simply don't have that many people weighing in on this matter, and must take what consensus has been given. Flyer22 (talk) 20:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree with current closed version, my dear friends happy Nowruz and spring.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 06:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I note that Betty's view is very close to mine. I think her point about the contents of the first paragraph are worthwhile. We should discuss what form the change should take. Flyer, you seem to imply that you offered a compromise to achieve consensus but I don't see that. I'd like you to offer a meaningful compromise as others have so we can work this out. Many thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 14:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Betty's preference is for the current lead. She already stated that. All she recently stated is that the "record nature of the achievement should be 'brought out' more" and that she is open to putting the awards/commercial success information higher, not that she prefers the lead that way or that the information should go higher. As for a compromise... You just don't stop, but that is your nature. So go ahead and keep antagonizing me with "Flyer, you need to make a compromise" when I have thoroughly expressed my view on that. There is no implying going on. I have been quite clear. I tried to compromise with Bakhshi82, yes, as further witnessed on my talk page -- his selecting one of my copyedits of his version. Betty rejected that version too. And I really wasn't for it either (the typos were more of my concern). Then I agreed to let Bakhshi82 have the word "particular" tagged on to "critical acclaim and commercial success." Betty rejected that too, but found a wording that Bakhshi82 does agree with. It is quite clear that now six editors are against your version. Consensus is quite clear in this case. We don't have to backtrack on our views or kick aside our stance just because you say so. I stated that I no longer desire to discuss this with you any further because, in addition to the belittling, my thoughts are final and consensus is clear. You are the only one objecting to the current lead. And that is a lot of the times the way consensus goes -- not everyone gets their way. Or part of it. Flyer22 (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

After seeing the referral on the Film project's talk-page, and reading through this mountain of a discussion, I figured I would offer my input and personal feelings on it as well. I noticed that the topic at hand seemed to shift somewhat throughout the discussion, but the main thing that was scrutinized seemed to be the structure of the lead, so that is what I will discuss.

In just about all film articles which achieve FA status that I am aware of, all seem to follow a certain structure within their leads. That structure is one which encompasses a quick summary of the most notable information within the article, in the order of which is is presented in the article's body. I feel that the reason for this blanket precedent has always been to avoid NPOV discussions (ie. 19XX Award-winning film, etc) on the prominence and/or placement of information within the lead itself. Therefore, I believe that this article is of no exception regardless of how many awards the film may have obtained. Its accomplishments with awards are noted in full detail towards the end of the article within the "Awards" section, and in summarizing those awards and any records which may entail, they should be at or near the end of the lead itself. This mirrors the article's body in the lead summary and in my opinion provides a structure which is easier for the reader, while at the same time establishing the matter of "what goes where" in a more neutral fashion. I support the current version as it is. DrNegative (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Flyer, why is it antagonistic to ask you to do what a good editor does? That's how this process works. When there are multiple viewpoints, we work to achieve a consensus. Reaching consensus means compromise. By inviting you to offer a compromise I'm assuming your good faith and showing my willingness to include your views. That's what a good editor does. --Ring Cinema (talk) 19:32, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Been over this above. About why it's antagonistic, about the fact that consensus has been reached, about the fact that consensus does not always mean that everyone is satisfied with the consensus. Flyer22 (talk) 01:10, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You have to have your nose seriously out of joint to think that asking you to offer a compromise is antagonistic. That's your fantasy. Let me point out that you falsely accused me of bad faith for offering a compromise!!! And there's no consensus, as we all know, just a straw poll that stands about even. as EdJohnston(?) reminded you. --Ring Cinema (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You know why you're antagonistic, and so do others. It's your fantasy that you aren't. No, wait -- it's just more of your being antagonistic. No false accusations by me. Only by you. And there is clearly consensus. I see that your skewed view that there is no consensus is why you are steadily trying to inject your version into the lead any way you can get it. EdJohnston spoke nothing of a damn straw poll! Only you. All because you cannot accept that seven editors are for my version! EdJohnston told you I was not owning the article, and that to let it go if you could not get your way. That's what he said. Flyer22 (talk) 22:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

EdJohnston did say that, after which Betty expressed agreement with me on the content of the awards passage, so that's progress. He also said "It sometimes helps if one of the parties will try to make a neutral summary of what has been said up to the present" after which I repeatedly asked you to offer a compromise draft. He didn't weigh in on your possible violations of OWN after I showed him the evidence. So all in all, I'm just trying to make the article as good as possible. I have tried to incorporate your views into my edits. That's not warring, that's editing. Since you're thinking about warring every time someone edits you, maybe you should double check if you are doing the best you can to stick to the process. My requests that you offer a compromise are exactly what a good editor should do when working with an editor who refuses to accept a compromise. You think that's some kind of offense, but it's exactly what we're supposed to do. I think you should do what we're supposed to do instead of engaging in personal attacks when I try to improve the article. --Ring Cinema (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

EdJohnston stated what I stated above. Betty expressed concern as to your wording of the Academy Awards information and why it is confusing. You continue to insist keeping it in for no valid reason at all, other than your preference for it. EdJohnston didn't weigh in after "your evidence" because he clearly believes there was no WP:OWN violation on my part. We can ask him to state that again if you want. No, I don't believe you are trying to make the article as good as possible. There is nothing good about keeping confusing wording in the lead and not specifically stating the film's nominations and awards. There is nothing good about removing the fact that Titanic became the highest-grossing film of all-time from the lead -- which, other than its nominations and awards, is its biggest feat. The biggest feat to a lot of people. It doesn't matter that the film was surpassed; that does not mean it should not be stated that it became the highest-grossing film of all-time, especially since we make it clear that it was surpassed. It's always only after I tweak the lead...that you come up with new issues for it -- issues you never had with it before. So excuse me for assuming bad faith. You continue to insist that I should compromise with you on everything, when you cannot even compromise on this. We have been over this already. And no amount of your calling me a bad editor or implying that I am will take away from the fact that I do not always have to compromise with you...that consensus turn-outs do not always please everyone...and that plenty of good editors do not always compromise. Go repeat yourself elsewhere, and stop condescending to me. Flyer22 (talk) 23:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

As I just stated above in the #Redundancy in the introduction, awards and success section: Looking at your edit again, I actually don't have a problem with your "became the highest-grossing film of all time" removal, since your version still makes clear that the film was the highest-grossing until Avatar. But I did tweak it, by adding "of all time" to the end of it and encasing it back into the highest-grossing films link.

I still have a problem with the Academy Awards wording, though, for the reasons already mentioned. It is simply better to state the specific number of nominations and wins, especially in this case...since this is a rare achievement. "Equaling awards" does not specify anything, and is not unique. Flyer22 (talk) 01:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Update: Bakhshi82, the compromise wording Betty made for you has been changed due to an IP editor (likely the same editor in both edits)[1][2] feeling that the words "acclaim" and "considerable" fall in line with WP:PEACOCK (at least that's what I feel the IP objected to). I don't agree with the removal of "acclaim," since Titanic did achieve acclaim, and "acclaim" makes the film's success a lot clearer. But "considerable," which was Betty's compromise for you on the box office emphasis, is a bit weasel-wordy (I feel). The word "considerable" is not as specific as the word "acclaim." Either way, the lead has been tweaked to this, because there is nothing wrong with simply stating that the film was a critical and commercial success, and it should be in the lead. It is a fact, plain and simple, not interpretation. Flyer22 (talk) 19:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• I think the IP made an improvement removing the weasel wording, but that said I thought there was at least a tacit agreement to not make any unilateral changes to the disputed segments. I know no-one is entirely happy with the lead, but I think we should probably go back to the last stable version. If something in the article is a problem for enough editors, then they can register their opinion on the discussion page and then a clear direction for moving forward will emerge. Betty Logan (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, Betty. I was trying to maintain the consensus (aka, stable) version while addressing the IPs' concerns regarding the weasel wording. I did not make any drastic changes or add in disputed material. I don't believe that the IP was objecting to the fact that the lead states the film's critical and commercial success, but rather the objection was to the words "acclaim" and "considerable." Flyer22 (talk) 02:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I think there's a difference between using subjective or peacock wording, with wording that unanimously describes the film's success. In other words, let's not undermine how successful the film was. I think the word "acclaim" was completely fine, per the argument stated above. Anyway, since I don't have time to read every single reply in this thread, can someone tell me if the current wording in the article is anything close to what the majority of the users would like it to look like? I'll give you my two cents. As in any article, it should be chronologically written. For example, a synopsis of the film should be in the first paragraph, with an elongated (but still short) verison of the plot, and with main character explanations and techhnical info (like the location, budget, etc) in the second paragraph. Then, in the last pararaph should the critical and commercial success be showcased. I say this, because it is much easier for a reader who doesn't know of the film that well to comprehend what it entails. Now, users cannot make a revisionist history of the film, as well. I think the production delays and the "tepid" response of critics should be concisely added. That said, this should be countered by the critical and commercial success the film had. As for wording, I see no problem with adding words like "enormous" and "acclaim" to the film's success. That's just being too neutral to the point of undermining the film's success. Additionally, the record 14 Oscars and 11 wins accolade should be stated, and its recognition as the "highest grossing film of all time" should be added. Personally, I think there is no need for the statement "first film to reach a billion dollars." That's what the rest of the article is for. Some users forget that this is just a lead section, and nitty bitty pieces of info are redundant and unncessary. Lastly, this disagreement has gone on for far too long. It's impacting the reputation of the article, and if there is a consensus between a majority of users then that is enough for the edits to go through. Wikipedia is not a democracy. BalticPat22Patrick (talk) 05:29, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, BalticPat22. I agree with everything you stated above. Well, except I do feel that the fact that Titanic was the first film to reach 1 billion is a significant enough feat to be mentioned in the lead, but I can also understand your preference for keeping it out. And "enormous" is a bit weasel-wordy to me, but, again, I understand your point. It's why I am all for "acclaim." I would say that the current version of the lead is close to what the majority of the users at this talk page would like it to look like, per above; it is simply the "equaled" wording I have a problem with in regards to it now. As I stated higher, the "equaled" wording does not specify anything, and is not unique. Plenty of films have equaled each other for nominations or wins. The least this version could do is name the films Titanic tied with. If it's not even going to do that, saying that Titanic "equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and wins" is quite useless. Further, the nominations and awards should be specifically stated because this is a rare achievement. The "highest grossing film of all time" line is still there; it's just not in what I consider to be the better flow out of the two versions. All in all, I am not seeing why the "equal" wording is better than specifically stating the nominations and wins, and that it somewhat goes against the consensus already achieved for the lead. Flyer22 (talk) 05:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Seems I was wrong about the IP. He considers mentioning that the film was a critical and commercial success to be WP:PEACOCK either way, which is just absurd. It does not matter that the film's success is evident by its nominations, awards and box office information (which I don't even feel is evident when it comes to the "equal" wording). There should be a good lead-in to the information. Stating that it was a critical and commercial success and then providing examples is the ideal way of relaying this information, just as is done on the Avatar (2009 film) article and many others. As the IP's version of the lead goes against what has largely been worked out on this talk page, I reverted. Sure, I hate the "equaled" wording, but I reverted to Ring Cinema's version because that design is closer to the consensus version than the IP's changes. This IP is clearly going to continue to edit war without bringing his argument to this talk page, and even has a changing IP address, so actually requesting that the article be locked, semi or full-on (instead of locked simply by result of a report), may be necessary. Flyer22 (talk) 08:21, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The film was clearly a commercial success beyond subjective judgment, so WP:peacock doesn't apply since we are just stating a fact, rather than over-stating it. As for "critical success", I suppose that can be a subjective judgment based on what you regard as the threshold in the good:bad review ratio, so it might be better to say it was "critically well received", which again is just stating a fact rather than applying a judgment. As for the ongoing debate between you and Ring over the Academy award wording, I still think it should make it clear how many awards and nominations it got, and it should be clear that they equaled/matched/tied the respective academy records. Betty Logan (talk) 18:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how "critical success" is subjective or is different than saying "critically well-received." The film was largely well-received by critics, which makes it a critical success. But thank you for stating that how many nominations and awards it got should be mentioned, and for again offering a compromise. You're right -- it doesn't have to be one way or the other; it can be both. After readding the specific nominations and awards information, how would you word the "equaled" part? I don't feel that simply stating Titanic "equaled records for both Academy Award nominations and wins" is sufficient enough, per my reasoning above. I mean, how is it special that it equaled records when other films have as well? It should be specified. Flyer22 (talk) 18:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Flyer mentioned on the other page that she accepts Betty's view. Betty's view is my view, so there's not a dispute apparently. --Ring Cinema (talk) 21:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I accept your change. That works fine. I take it everyone else is okay with the lead now? BalticPat22 has an issue with not using "acclaim," but are there any other issues you have with the new lead, BalticPat22? Flyer22 (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus

I take it everyone else is okay with the lead now? BalticPat22 has an issue with not using "acclaim," but are there any other issues you have with the new lead, BalticPat22? Flyer22 (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

If you and Ring accept the current version I'm happy to accept it as the new consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 23:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

No, I think the lead, especially the final paragraph correctly summarizes the film. While there are a few qualms I still have, none of them warrant any further discussion. That said, I agree with how the article's lead is worded. BalticPat22Patrick (talk) 02:03, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with it, too. --Ring Cinema (talk) 01:59, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not understanding this IP. It's clearly the same one as before. The first six digits are indicative of that. At first, the IP objects to weasel wording, but then adds back the word "considerable." I'm now wondering if this is Bakhshi82. But if it is Bakhshi82, it doesn't make sense why he tampered with the lead in the first place and started this debate all over again after already agreeing that the lead was fine. In my opinion, the wording "the film achieved critical and commercial acclaim" flows better than "the film achieved considerable critical and commercial success." So should the word "acclaim" be added instead to showcase the film's level of success? Or should the IP be reverted on that line, restoring it simply to "the film achieved critical and commercial success," since we all agreed on that? Flyer22 (talk) 14:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Revert the IP. We've already come to a consensus and that shouldn't change just because an unidentified user doesn't want to play by the rules. You are correct, the wording flows much better than th IP's reverts. This is gettting quite tiring. BalticPat22Patrick (talk) 17:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The IP struck yet again. And I have to say that this is definitely Bakhshi82. I changed his wording to "the film achieved critical and commercial acclaim", because it flows better than his latest attempt at restructuring that sentence, there is not much objection to "acclaim" here, and because I hope it will encourage him to stop. If anyone wants to change it back to "success," of course go ahead. But I am not going to be the one to keep battling this IP. Not alone. Since he is an IP, there is not much we can do in terms of blocking. Except getting this article semi-locked again, which will block his IP editing. I can also take him through WP:User check, have it revealed that he is Bakhshi82, and have his account blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I see I was a few minutes late in the mention of semi-locking. EdJohnston locked it, and I say thank you, EdJohnston. If this draws out Bakhshi82 (who did the same type of nitpicking to that part of the lead) and Bakhshi82 does this again, I will report him in some form or fashion and take him through user check. Flyer22 (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we should retain the agreed wording instead of pandering to the IPs. I think the sentence is grammatically incorrect now, because while you can have "critical success" I don't think you can really have "commercial acclaim". Betty Logan (talk) 21:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking about that too, Betty -- the commercial acclaim part -- when I suggested the wording. Fixed it back. Flyer22 (talk) 22:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

My language is not english, if i used or wrote a word but mistake forgive me. for goodness sake, i have many accounts by my friends in Wiki and i don't need to use an IP for my purpose. That person did the nitpicking is you that waiting to undo a change ever because isn't according to your favorite description, words or style. I'm sorry for Flyer and i thought she can has more complete personality. I reach to an idea that many Wiki articles has no any value about its purpose because some of people are waiting all day long to reject an copyedit so they feel ownership. My latest edit was definitely correct but Betty rejected that uncaused. Betty completely didn't understanding about academy awards records and our conversation is on his or her talk page, of course if be on the talk page still. I hope for you to a little grow up, this film's value is clear for everyone and i, you and yours can't change it by only article between many hundred discussions about the film. Some editors in Wiki have not the power to endurance other words by other editors. I remember we had terms like "enormous" on the lead but no one objected, now all of you reject each other! I believe today terms like "success" or "acclaim" must be removed from all articles especially movies, we must write only figures and awards along with sources and then let the people to decide after reading: "the film has been succeed or not?", may be Oscars or some critics observe not considering for the film to be a good artwork in thought of some readers.

I'm very busy now and have no time to check this page continuously (maybe like you), If anyone in this page use or mention my username as a wrongdoer i will have to report that. I'm grateful.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Bakhshi82, if you want to sit here and pretend the IPs weren't you, whatever. But the IPs nitpicked the lead in the same way you have done in the past, and without discussion on the talk page...and you behaved in the same way I predicted you would once this article was locked. You are also making the same argument as the IPs, saying "success" and "acclaim" should not be used because the film's success should speak for itself. Your arguments have been confusing and contradictory to say the least, and it has nothing to do with your English. If you continue to nitpick against consensus, I will report you in the way I have stated above. You have nothing to report me for. But, again, whatever. You also shouldn't be using "many accounts by your friends in Wiki" (unless it is fan-Wiki; not sure what the rules are there). Now later. Flyer22 (talk) 00:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Flyer22, this is a misunderstanding! the IPs are close to each other have opposite behavior and some of them are proxy IPs as i realized, do you think i'm insane? You slander to me! I want you to erase my username as wrongdoer in your sentences on this section of discussion seriously, otherwise i will have to get action via other wiki ways and at the end we lose our time for trifle argument, thank you.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 09:55, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Whatever, Bakhshi. I'm done. I hope you are too. And I hope your "get action via other ways" was not a WP:THREAT. Lastly, for the record, proxies cannot be used at Wikipedia. Flyer22 (talk) 00:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

As much fun as this is to read, I would suggest that if either of you has further issues with each other (as opposed to with the article) that you follow the procedures outlined in WP:DR rather than discussing it here; this appears to have gone beyond a simple content dispute. Thanks. Doniago (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a dispute with Bakhshi82, other than his going against consensus at this article. So, yes, my comments were in relation to content dispute. But if he is done going against consensus achieved on this topic, then good. Flyer22 (talk) 00:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

There is some proxy IPs that working still on WP. You have attempted to act against WP:NPA and this is my last request. Remove my username on your comments (second, third, and fourth comments) on this section, "Consensus". Thank you.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 12:13, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Proxy IPs cannot be used on Wikipedia. Go ahead and give it a try. Unless, of course, you found some way to use them. Really, I am not sure how you are so certain that the IPs were proxies, unless... And I see you actually did make a legal threat against me, and that the version I saw was a change of words, and that I was still somehow able to determine your latest statement of "get action via other ways" (which you also altered) as "legal action" as well. But whatever. I have stated all I have to state to you on this matter, and I will not be altering my comments to remove your name. Let this drop, and move on. Flyer22 (talk) 18:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

If you see now any WP illegal content on my comments tell me, i will remove all of them and i apologize to you seriously.--Bakhshi82 (talk) 21:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Rudeness and consensus

It is unreasonable to expect people who are not familiar with the finer points of literary writing, read have not completed freshman English, to recognize and avoid peacock language or buzzwords. It is quite rude to dump on them. It is so rude that it is not surprising that they might think such rudeness, and unprovable accusation of socking, might support legal action. No checkuser is going to run a check on someone because they say that Titanic played to critical acclaim.

And, by the way, there is no consensus here. There was a vote, and while I agree with the conclusion; it gives no remit to dictate article content. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

It's perhaps a good idea to read the whole discussion, to check the article history, and the countless messages left on the editor's talk page before posting ill-considered opinions, because you clearly haven't understood the nature of the dispute. The problem with the editor was not so much the peacock language, but persistance in reintroducing it to the article despite the opposition from several editors and requests to engage in discussion. And there clearly is a consensus because the four editors who participated fully in the discussion came to an agreement about the wording of the article. Betty Logan (talk) 15:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Beg to differ; I've spent hours going through this stuff; please be reasonably courteous to other editors in the future. If someone is having trouble with English conventions, please try to assist them. There can be no agreement in the absence of actual consensus. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

No-one in this dispute has acted improperly other than Bakhshi. Five editors disputed the wording, four of them were willing to discuss the issue and came to an agreement. Bahkhsi was asked plenty of times to join the discussion but chose not to do so, instead opting to restore the disputed wording. We can't force editors to join a discussion, but the editors who were willing to participate in discussion arrived at consensus. Betty Logan (talk) 18:06, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I of course agree with Betty. It's not true that I suggested a usercheck on Bakhshi simply because Bakhshi wrote Titanic played to critical acclaim. I'm also not seeing how socking in this case is "unprovable," unless the socking took place somewhere other than the user's main IP account. Even with dynamic IPs, the first six digits are the same, as I displayed above. Further, "acclaim" wasn't even Bakhshi's recent wording; it was mine, again trying to compromise. We tried to assist Bakhshi, pointing him to guidelines and policies and asking him to participate on the talk page. In fact, we first reached consensus (seven editors all for one version of the lead) with Bakhshi included. Then the IPs showed up, tampering with the same part of the lead Bakhshi had tampered with and later applying the same type of edits Bakhshi had applied and not participating on the talk page just like Bakhshi did. I felt that the IPs were Bakhshi, and said that a semi-lock on the article would draw him out under his user name and that he would then tamper with that part of the lead again. And that's exactly what he did. I'm not taking back my suspicions that Bakhshi was one or both of the IPs. Call it rudeness or whatever. But we continuously tried to work with Bakhshi, and he continuously tampered with the lead after objections were made here on the talk page, for more than one reason. We now have four editors supporting the new lead, and it's not much different than the version seven editors supported prior to that (which was not at all a vote that first time). If Bakhshi is the only editor still not satisfied with the lead, then what more are we supposed to do? Keep making compromises just for Bakhshi? It seems he is never satisfied with the lead. We cannot keep offering up a new compromise just for Bakhshi. If he wants to tell us why he objects to the current wording of the lead, when it isn't much different than the wording he agreed to, then we're listening. Well...two of us maybe, as all of us are tired out by this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I did my best to include Bakhshi's views because I thought he pointed out something of value, even if unintentionally. His English is not good enough to be trusted and I think if an editor doesn't know how to improve an article they shouldn't edit it. Similar issues have come up on other articles I've worked on and it's not a problem. I'm not completely on board with the part about working with someone who doesn't know English usage or conventions. That's not the best way to make the article as good as possible. Fortunately, with Betty and Flyer around we don't really have to worry about that too much. --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:30, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

And Bakhshi's view would have been accommodated a lot further if he had joined the discussion. I don't know what Fred Bauer expects us to do really; there was a disagreement between editors and we took it to the talk page and hacked out a solution just like we're supposed to do. Bakhshi was asked through edit summaries and messages on his talk page to join the discussion, but chose not to, and I think Fred is sending out the wrong message here. And as for saying "there was a vote but no consensus" did the guy even bother to read the discussion? We clearly ironed out the details through discussion and then checked with everybody at the end of it that the outcome was satisfactory. That's not a vote in my book; if an editor still had fundamental problems we would have gone back to the drawing board, so I fail to see how the end result was not a "consensus". I'd like to know what Fred would have done in the case of an editor that refuses to join a discussion... Betty Logan (talk) 12:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Spot on, Betty. I had the same thought. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)