Talk:Wir müssen durch viel Trübsal, BWV 146

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A fact from Wir müssen durch viel Trübsal, BWV 146 appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 May 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Bach superimposed voice parts to the "deeply moving slow movement" of his Harpsichord Concerto in his cantata Wir müssen durch viel Trübsal, BWV 146, for Jubilate?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/May.

Wikipedia

closing chorale text question

The History and words section explains that this Bach cantata has surviving music but not text for the final chorale . In the scoring and structure section , the final chorale text is listed as an option

8. Chorale: Denn wer selig dahin fähret or Ach, ich habe schon erblicket

However , looking at the 6 example recordings at the bottom of the article page , I found
Denn wer selig dahin fähret seems to be listed for
Harnoncourt (Teldec) Leusink Rilling and Gardiner
while Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele seems to be performed by Koopman and Suzuki

I didn't find any version of bwv146 using the chorale text
Ach, ich habe schon erblicket ,
although it appears as the text for the closing chorale of bwv162

wikipedia editors may want to check and correct (if needed) the text line for the closing chorale of bwv146 , perhaps by this

8. Chorale: Denn wer selig dahin fähret or Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele

if they agree with my suspicions . I do not have the "suggested" hymn text from Lasset ab von euren Tränen unless by chance it is Denn wer selig dahin fähret as shown in this book by Alfred Durr , similar to ref.1 from the article page . If that is the "suggested" text , shouldn't the History and words section say so explicitly ?

70.106.152.64 (talk) 04:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC) mgt220 a yahoo,com[reply]

Thank you, I tried, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Focusing on the question of where Denn wer selig dahin fähret came from ... this page lists a reference English-1 by Z. Philip Ambrose , stating in part (re-arranged by me , in 2 parts :)

8. Chorale (S, A, T, B)," 1658 (Fischer-Tümpel, I, #309). 

[Ah, I have already witnessed
This enormous majesty;
Now shall I have fine adornment
In the shining robe of heav'n;
With the golden crown of honor
I shall stand before God's throne then,
And shall such great gladness see,
Which can never have an end.](4)

4. The text supplied by Neumann T. using 
Johann Rosenmüller or Johann Georg Albinus, 
verse 7 of "Alle Menschen müssen sterben," 1652 (Fischer-Tümpel, IV, #311);

I think this is the chorus Ach, ich habe schon erblicket that none of the complete Cantata collections recorded - check here - (and part 2 :)

[For who blessed passeth thither,
Where no death will knock again,
He shall all those things obtain then
That he ever could desire.
He'll be in that stronghold sure
Where God his own dwelling hath,
He'll have in that mansion lodging
Which no misery afflicteth.](5) 

5. The text supplied by Wustmann. 
by Gregorius Richter, verse 9 of  Lasset ab von euren Tränen

which seems quite similar to the google translation of Denn wer selig dahin fähret ... and subsequent text , and also is close to the English text on p.313 of the book by Alfred Durr I cited yesterday

That evidence seems to indicate that Denn wer selig dahin fähret did come from the Hymn Lasset ab von euren Tränen , and was suggested by Wustmann . Is this evidence sufficient for an explicit statement to be included in the History and words section ?

Note that there is a Rudolph Wustmann listed as co-author with Werner Neumann as ref.4 on the page for bwv037 . (could that book have been part of the new Bach Edition which Werner Neumann was an editor of ?)

Whether Alfred Durr merely mentioned it as one of two good choices , or "suggested it" himself , I leave to the editors .

70.106.152.64 (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC) mgt220 a yahoo,com[reply]

Movement 8 of BWV 146 has the same music as Movement 7 of BWV 246 "Stille, stille! ist die Losung"

Am I the first to notice this? If there were not there no lyrics for the closing chorale, maybe it was sung with the lyrics for "Stille, stille! ist die Losung". Also, it is said that Bach did not write BWV 246, but copied it from an anonymous author. It makes me wonder if Bach wrote movement 8 of BWV 146. Parthian Scribe 07:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know it's the same music? Does a reliable source say so? Even if it's the same melody, it maybe a different setting. You probably know that Bach set five stanzas of O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden in the St Matthew Passion, in four different settings,different according to the text. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]