Talk:Xavante language
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Xavante /w/ and velars
[edit][copied from my talk page—kwami (talk)]
Not that I speak Portuguese, but I took não-arredondado to mean "non-rounded", not "wholly un-labial" - i.e. a similar compress'd /w/ as in Japanese. Note how she still groups it with the labials. Maybe we could settle at lack of phonemic velars. (I wonder if the language has maybe had a similar k > ʔ shift as in Hawai'ian.)
Good work BTW! --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 22:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- I suspect that the shift was k to tch, but that should be easy enough to check with other Ge languages.
- Regardless of the form of rounding, the /w/ is presumably still phonetically velar. I'm not sure what a lack of "phonemic" velars would mean--we dictate that they are not velar because there are no other velars? That seems a bit like declaring that a language with [s] has no fricatives because it lacks [f], [x], and [h], or that Samoan has no alveolars despite having an [l]. kwami (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- We still appear to be comfortable telling that X. lacks nasals on a phonemic level. I can see no explicit note about velarity, on the contrary she notes "there are sonorants at the bilabial, alveolar and glottal places of articulation".
- Hm, and it's anyway "não-arredondado posterior fechado alto sonoro" - after "closed high" (?) sonorants. McLeod & Valerie's '03 paper tells it's pronounced "as in English after /i/, without rounding and with a little friction" - as well as "without friction and more rounded in outros ambientes", whatever that means. We can probably agree that English /w/ is not [β̞ɰ], so this remains still unclear.
- I would presume /w/ not to be purely velar in a language that lacks velars otherwise, any more than it to be purely labial in a language that otherwise lacks labials. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 15:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I hadn't checked (2003). That does support your edits.
- Phoneme tables are frequently arranged more for convenience than for precision. If there's no other need for a velar column, then one's unlikely to add on just for /w/. Likewise, if there's no labio-velar column (as in English), then one's unlikely to add one just for /w/, but that doesn't mean English /w/ is not labio-velar. From the (2003) comment you pointed out, Xavante /w/ would appear to be labio-velar:
- antes da letra ‘i’ é pronunciado como o ‘w’ inglês, sem arredondamento dos lábios e com um pouco de fricção. Em outros ambientes não há fricção e os lábios se arredondam mais
- "before the letter 'i' it's pronounced as the English 'w', without rounding of the lips and with a bit of friction. In other environments it doesn't have friction and the lips are more rounded"
- Since in general we define phonemes by their 'elsewhere' values, we should probably consider this a more-or-less typical /w/ with a non-rounded semi-fricative allophone (≈ [ɣ˕]) before /i/.
- As far as the 1974 não-arredondado posterior fechado alto sonoro description, as far as I can tell that's a "non-rounded high/closed back semivowel"—the authors characterize all semivowels with the terms for the equivalent vowels. Taking that comment literally, she means it's the semivowel equivalent of the high back unrounded vowel [ɯ], or in other words, [ɰ]. But the (2003) description would appear to trump that characterization.
Rosetta Project
[edit]This link seems to be damaged Glavkos (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
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