Talk:Yoga as therapy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Introduction

Yoga as exercise was started to discuss those forms of yoga - found mostly in the West - which are purely physical and which deny a connection to Hinduism or spiritual practice. This is not my view of yoga, but I started the article in reponse to concerns by Trollderella that the main Yoga article and the Hatha Yoga article did not give enough space to purely physical secular yoga ("exercise yoga"). The difficulty perceived by other editors was that physical secular yoga is an exception to the traditional Eastern view of yoga. The main Yoga article mentions that some people (particularly in Western cultures) do the physical exercises for health and fitness, and links to Yoga as exercise where the topic can be explored more fully.

It would be helpful for the different yoga articles to each maintain their own focus and develop along individual lines. I suggest that Yoga as exercise maintain its original intention of discussing only those forms of yoga which are purely physical and secular.

Under the current compromise, we have a Yoga article which mainly discusses a broad family of spiritual practices, a Hatha Yoga article which discusses a particular branch of Hindu Yoga that is still a spiritual path (even though it places a lot of emphasis on the postures), and a Yoga as exercise article which presents the physical fitness exercises divorced from Hinduism or spiritual practice. That is my view of where we are. (There are also various articles on specific types of yoga.) --Fencingchamp 21:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC) (This is true. There are good resources on specific kinds of yoga, many of which are linked throughout this article, such as Hatha yoga.) (Pospsychspring11 (talk) 03:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC))

The connection to Hinduism (or perhaps more accurately) Asian philosophy and culture cannot be denied without misleading readers. Purely, physical, secular yoga is simply exercise - it is not yoga! In a similar way you cannot take the sugar out of the tea once it has been stirred. The reason why we have these postures is because of the heritage - not the other way around - the tail does not wag the dog. Physical, secular yoga is not an exception to the Eastern View of yoga but merely an adaption by the sports and fitness industry. Hatha Yoga does not emphaise postures - the classical text (that deals with the physical aspects of yoga ), the 15th century Hatha Yoga Pradipika devotes only one of its four chapters to asana, the now popular physical "yoga exercises", and only describes fourteen such postures, the majority being postures suitable for sitting meditation. Fitness exercises divorced from Hinduism or spiritual practice cannot be called yoga since the word first appears in Hindu texts. Yoga as exercise should concentrate on the physical aspects only, of which there are not many - and the Yoga as alternative medicine requires a different topic due to the complex regulatory environment and research that is involved in the discussion. Yoga Mat (talk) 11:57, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Merge

Fencingchamp, while I like what you have done (I've been reading the talk at Yoga), I think this page and the page Yoga (alternative medicine) are both in need of some filling out. Perhaps if there can be a solid page on the western aspect of yoga, those interested in it as a health and well-being practise will be more inclined to work on it. bodhidharma 16:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I came here 'cos suggestBot thought I'd be interested. I concur with your first sentence that they both need filling out. However, I'm not sure what you're proposing in the second sentence. Can you clarify?

Personally, I'd like to see Yoga (alternative medicine) fleshed out a lot more, and I'd be happy to merge the information from the yoga as exercise article. However, I think it's a bad idea to try to merge the other way round. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 15:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Keep Separate

I agree with user Fencingchamp: the article on yoga as exercise needs to be kept as a separate entry. I also think that yoga, used just as an exercise, is as a subject more closely related to ordinary health, along with (say) cycling and hiking, and not very similar to the broader subject of alternative medicine, which typically involves a more mystical outlook on health. User bodhidharma sensibly brings up the point that too many articles on a single subject can impede development of the Wikipedia. Perhaps people can be encouraged to work on a sub-article by providing copious cross-references to other articles that have been well tended. I think it is important to maintain this separate venue for information for those, like me, who are interested in exercise, and disinterested in this route to spirituality, and disinterested in non-standard medicine. --Tom Lougheed

Agree, keep separate.--Nemonoman 21:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree, keep separate. --User:AlanRo 15:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually I would do away with the section entitled "Yoga as a physical exercise." There simply is no such thing.

One cannot differentiate between the physical and the spiritual aspects of Yoga without denaturating the entire concept of Yoga. Even focusing on Hatha Yoga alone, it is not a set of physical exercises in itself, but a path that leads to a spiritual goal.

In an extreme example, when one only performs the asanas as a physical exercise, his claim that he is practicing Yoga is quite similar with the claim of someone who only imitates the genoflexions that Christian believers do in the course of their prayers (i.e. sit down, stand up, get on your knees and so on), that he is practicing Christianity. This example does not mean to imply that Yoga is a religion, but attempts to show that imitating the external, pure physical expressions of different forms of spiritual manifestations and ignoring the entire spiritual context, does not entitle one to claim that he is a practitioner of that particular spiritual manifestation.

I think there is widespread misconception in the Western world about what Yoga means, and the fact that many Yoga instructors have a fitness background, and themselves consider Yoga a form of fitness, fuels this misconception. This misperception is illustrated by the fact that many people commonly refer to

Yoga as an alternative to aerobic or jogging, among others.

I think this gets to the core of the matter and how the issue should be approached in WP. If there is a misconception and malpractice of yoga in the west, that should be a focus or subheading in the more general yoga discussion. Because, if it is true, then it means that what people are doing merely as a form of exercise/social activity is in reality an imposter or corruption with the same name, eg, NOT yoga. WP does a public disservice and would be dishonest to claim that it is actually "yoga, albeit for a different [reduced] goal." (not to mention naively ethnocentric) This ties directly into the claim about co-opting "yoga" as a brand to sell consumer goods for profit. I agree completely with this observation (as if that mattered...), but as it is written it looks ike OR and should probably be rewritten and cited to bring it up to standards.72.244.201.193 18:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there is great value to the discussions taking place about whether or not yoga as an alternative medicine and yoga as excersize should be combined or kept secret. While I see that the merge tag has been removed, it remains important to understand why the articles should be kept secret. As yoga is entirely about intention and the meaning invested in the actions, "yoga" is truly what the practitioner expresses through the movements and assanas. In this sense, an individual going through a sequence of physical movements might refer to it as yoga, but that use of the word might seem entirely alien to an individual who refers to meditation as yoga. For this reason, keeping the conversations separate and explaining how the intention works into the meaning of practicing yoga in these different ways helps clarify to readers what the term means in different contexts. Pospsychspring11 (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC) While the pure physiological benefits that one may derive from practising the physical component of Hatha Yoga are not to be denied, it is misleading to call that practice "Yoga." Unless one carries those physical exercises together with the required spiritual exercises, and for the purpose of achieving enlightement, one does not practice Yoga. He or she practices some form of fitness that mistakenly borrowed a name which depicts something else.

If you were to merge them under a new article about the western world then I'm neutral about a merge but then witch section goes on top. I'll Give $1/2$ a vote(a full vote) for Keep separate to encourage people to contribute to the article without worrying about whether a section is off topic. At my School (NY USA) The Physical ‘ed department has "Yoga". It Isn't real yoga but I just love to stretch. In a summer program in California they also had a stretching section they refer to as "Yoga". Thou at my school in NY they did do some guided imagery. Being from the west i tend to think of yoga as a broader term for things like Pilatey (Please correct the spelling for previous word sorry to be offensive).--E-Bod 05:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think keep them separate. The yoga that is perceived as exercise is not the same yoga that is alternative medicine. One is a Westernised interpretation of a traditional activity and the other one is the therapeutic aspects of that traditional activity. And there's lots of room for grey area but ultimately information would be lost be a merger. Both articles would make good daughter articles to the main yoga article. Which is what they currently are I believe. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 06:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree as per above. It is not NPOV but certainly ethnocentric to agree that the Western fragmentation and reduction of the practice should in fact constitute a legitimate "alternate" form of yoga. There is a subtle but extremely important distinction between acknowledging the attempt to change the meaning and practice (successful? according to whom, eh??) and naively acknowledging a "reality" of a "successfully" modified "western yoga," which in reality would be the reduction of the holistic practice to a secular form of "physical exercise" and by definition could NOT be yoga even though many people insist in calling it such (as should be noted in the article). Additionally, it is one thing to argue that "going through the motions" is AN acceptable form of yoga practice vs calling it "yoga.[period]" -- the latter being an imperialistic practice 72.244.201.193 18:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok I change my $1/2$ a vote to a full 1 vote to Keep seperat E-Bod 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I'm not sure if i counted right but so far i think there is 1 vote Merge, 5 votes Don't Merge and 1 vote Delete. (Please recount my tally) How Long should we keep the Merge tags up? How about if the artiles are not merged we just mention on each that anoher western use/misuse of yoga is exersize/medicin. Sorry Metta Bubble for miss-combining the 2 talk groups & thanks for fixing it--E-Bod 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I work in Chronic Pain Management/Medicine. Yoga as excercise is used within this field of conventional i.e. non-alternate medicine. I argue it is illogical to merge yoga as excercise with alternate medicine when it as also part of conventional medicine. [Michael Liddle.]

I Have removed the merge tags because they have been up for a long time and more people oppose the merge than agree with it. We don't need a maintenance tag here forever--E-Bod 00:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Sexist comment

'Yoga "classes" have special appeal to young women, as they afford an opportunity to put on figure-hugging clothing and have their bodies admired by an in-group.' Does this not apply to young men as well? The singling out of women looks completely gratuitous. Do you agree to change ´women' to 'people'? Bandiera 16:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

No. Overhwelmingly, recruitment into the yoga business is women. El Ingles 17:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

So? Do you have any proof that women are more into yoga because they like wearing figure-hugging clothes and being admired more than men do? Because that is what the sentence states. If you want to state that most recruits are women, I don't have any problem with that (although it would be better to back it up). This explanation for the fact is certainly wrong beside being offensive. Let's take it out. Bandiera 03:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are the facts.

• Yoga classes attract many more women than men. Procedure for verifying this: Observe any large yoga class in the USA or UK.

• Clothing sold for the purpose of attending these classes is more figure-revealing than ordinary street clothes. Procedure for verifying this: As above, plus browse online catalogues of yoga merchants.

• Young women like to have their bodies admired. Procedure for verifying this: Go to any California beach. Better still, a French beach. Observe the behaviour of the young females (preening, hair-tossing, parading, etc.).

I'd say that making a connection between these facts is permissible. I certainly don't see how you could know that it's "certainly wrong". This is just biology at work. El Ingles 16:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The third "fact" is the one I have a problem with (w/o even going into the invocation of "biology"). Unfortunately it is beyond my financial abilities to go to California beaches at the present moment, but I have been to many other beaches and seen quite a few men preening, hair-tossing, parading, etc. there. To remind you, the question is not whether (some) women like to do this, but whether they do this significantly more then men, and whether this is the main reason that there are more women then men at yoga classes. I can think of a few other possible reasons. Anyway this is all highly speculative and unencyclopedic (all three of your "facts" are based on personal observation and not research), so I repeat my request to change "women" to "people". Bandiera 17:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that would read very strangely, personally. I won't change it, but you can. Go ahead -- I don't go in for revert-wars. El Ingles 21:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

You know, it would. It would really be unfair to ascribe such motives to young people in general, as well as women. I'm in despair... Bandiera 03:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the entire sentence be struck, then? As one of those young women into yoga, I have to say that looking sexy is not my priority when working out- comfort is. I wear just a sports bra because a t-shirt falls into my face when I'm doing downward dog. Can't say that I'm doing it for others, since I'm in my apartment, all alone. Also, why is the word "classes" constantly in quotes? They are, in fact, classes, because you do have to learn how to do the poses. It looks like the article is being sarcastic here. Chrisser 01:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is about marketing yoga exercises and paraphernalia, therefore the adoption of strange postures in private is irrelevant to the topic. I've removed the inverted commas around "classes". The piece is supposed to be cynical but not sarcastic. El Ingles 14:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm new to this, so there's a lot I don't know. Is cynicism allowed? Seems biased to me. And I was letting you know what I do in private because it's likely that it's behind the more public displays you're talking about. Inverted poses in baggy t-shirts are no fun, whether in my apartment or in a studio. Chrisser 22:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to have the backup. What do you say, Ingles? Shall we rethink it? Btw I'm also troubled by the idea of a cynical article. Bandiera (Can't find the tildes on this keyboard).

No, I've conceded the quotes on "classes". But again -- I don't go in for revert-wars. If this gets too badly mangled I'll just delete it. El Ingles 19:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Lacrimosus fancies himself as Jack-the-lad now, doesn't he? Without even reading the discussion he dismisses 95% of the content. Well that's the end of that then. El Ingles 16:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh great, some ozzie bastard comes along and assassinates the article, and now Fuzzy510 calls the whole thing a stub. "You can help by expanding it" -- well, thanks mate, I already tried that and look where it got me. Maybe Chrisser can provide extra content along the lines of...

"Young women are attracted to yoga exercises because of the extreme comfort of the clothing, although the fact that the clothes also look sexy is seen as a definite disadvantage. Despite what you may think you have observed on beaches, bars and restaurants, young women really hate being admired"??

El Ingles 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

New Ideas

Does anyone have any ideas about what would be more helpful here? I know that when I came looking at this page, I was expecting something along the lines of talk about health benefits and the history, something like what you see over at Pilates or Tai Chi, maybe. Are there any other ideas? Chrisser 23:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, This article is definitely in need of a health-benefits section 68.144.184.240 (talk) 08:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

→Have improvements been made since these comments were posted? Octopet (talk) 10:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

NPOV?

" This figure not only attests to an elitist lifestyle choice, but the growing commitment to consumption, which in effect contradicts the intended purpose of the physical practice and illustrates why this is becoming a significant social issue. "

This run-on sentence hardly seems an objective statement about the state of the industry. Could this and other opinion-based statements be moved to some sort of sub-heading, like, say, 'criticism of marketing'? TemanCL 08:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Too Political!

I thought this article would be about the exercise and fitness dimension of Yoga. Instead, it reads largely as a political screed. I'd improve this article, but I don't have the knowledge to do so. My hope is somebody who can expound upon the fitness benefits of Yoga can seriously clean up this article. I think the politics properly belong in perhaps the main Yoga article.

I don't dismiss out of hand some of the viewpoints expressed here, but it's just completely inappropriate for this article. 75.73.68.8 (talk) 03:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Biased

someone mark this article as biased and needing review, honestly i don't know enough on the subject to edit it myself (Comment left by 63.3.70.9) 02:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. One section feels particularly POV spirited, and the whole article could do with a fresh approach. For now, just tagged. MURGH ^disc. 09:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I think the "Yoga Expenditure" section should probably be removed outright. I don't see any benefit from having it there, and it's got a nasty tone to its wording. CSWarren 23:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

After further consideration, I'm going to be bold and just excise the badness. If somebody really feels the need to add a "Criticism" section, that might be a better title for it. CSWarren 23:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge tag

I have tagged to merge Yoga (alternative medicine) inot this article. Long since articles exist, but no scope to improve further. This article already has a section for disease curing, so merging would be appropriate. Thanks. Phantom654321 (talk) 14:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Effectiveness?

I came here hoping to find information on the effectiveness of yoga as exercise, hopefully with citations. The effectiveness of yoga as exercise or alternative medicine would seem to be a necessary aspect of this article. Tim Bennett (talk) 06:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

To add to that, Yoga needs to be compared with other forms of exercise. It is obvious that Yoga is helpful, since it at least some form of exercise. It is not at all obvious if it more or less helpful, or more or less dangerous, than other forms of exercise. 128.36.174.63 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC).

I too would be very interested in finding here some information from comparative studies of heath benefits and risks of yoga and other kinds of physical exercise. Aryah (talk) 01:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm changing the word "cure" to "treat" in the second paragraph. Saying that some yoga practitioners assert that yoga "cures" diseases should have a citation, seems to me. The word "treats" is a compromise until a citation can be added to support the original statement. What do others think? Octopet (talk) 10:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Emerging Schools of Yoga

I don' think the three choices listed for "emerging schools of yoga" are appropriate choices. Why mention Naked Yoga, which is obviously some kind of fringe group, and neglect to mention the important and highly developed schools/styles, such as Iyengar, Ashtanga and so forth. I know everyone has their favorites, but really....!!!!! If no one objects I will change these in a few days. --Little Flower Eagle (talk) 20:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Medical Benefits of Yoga

The article barely covers the actual medical benefits that yoga has. I know that it particularly is useful against arthritis, some good citations are given in this article: http://www.hopkins-arthritis.org/patient-corner/disease-management/yoga.html#benefits It would be nice if someone can incorporate the advantages into the wiki article. leaflord (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I'll try to improve upon that at some point. Also I'm wondering about the statement "Yoga has been studied..." in the 3rd sentence; Shouldn't there be a citation to studies, or a reference to who/what institutions have conducted studies? Octopet (talk) 10:56, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

the quote "while much of the medical community..." is absurd. it takes the poor outcomes of scientific studies that purport to demonstrate health benefits as a point *in favor* of yoga as medicinal practice. this is a reversal. the studies that aim to show health benefits suffer from these flaws, that makes for a point against yoga as a medicinal treatment (lack of good studies supporting). the wording indicates this is somehow a defense given by yoga supporters. 67.170.76.133 (talk) 02:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree with the above - there is a similar sentence on the main Yoga page, which appears to add no value to the article and makes the article appear to contradict scientific consensus.194.75.37.250 (talk) 10:28, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Project Yoga

Editors with an interest in working collaboratively to improve the encyclopedic quality of Yoga-related articles are encouraged to visit a new project to achieve this at WP:WikiProject_Yoga. Please let us know you're interested. See you there, Trev M ~  01:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS

Where is the citations for this? My doctor has recommended me yoga, yet i find nothing on the internet that supports this? Is there anything that supports this statement? Or can we just liberally add things? "Yoga is good alternative therapy for headaches, and regrowing limbs" Halowithhorns89 (talk) 21:31, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Lead

• Yoga, in addition to its traditional role as a system for developing the highest wisdom in enlightenment,...

That's a very POV assertion to make, especially using a non-scholar as a source. If we really need to say this in the first sentence of the article then we should find a better source. However I think it'd be better to either remove it or reword it so that Wikipedia isn't endorsing this view.   Will Beback  talk  22:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The topic of this article is "Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine". The spiritual and other aspects of Yoga are covered in the article of that name. The lead of this article should not go into detail about the spiritual aspects - a short acknowledgement of their existence is all that's required.   Will Beback  talk  22:23, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have simplified it.Early morning person (talk) 21:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Why I deleted Hatha Yoga section

I removed the following short, older section of this article for the following reasons: 1) First and 2nd sentences: material is already covered in the newer Yoga as Exercise section, based on more up-to-date references. 2) Content of remaining two sentences are questionable and unreferenced. But if anyone objects, I am, of course, happy to discuss.Early morning person (talk) 19:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Hatha yoga

Main article: Hatha yoga

In the West, hatha yoga has become popular as a physical exercise regimen, with little attention to its original purpose. Currently, it is estimated that about 16 million Americans and about 5 million Europeans practice a form of hatha yoga. But it is still followed in a manner consistent with tradition throughout the Indian subcontinent. The traditional guru-student relationship that exists without sanction from organized institutions, and which gave rise to all the yogis who made their way internationally in the 20th century, has been maintained in Indian, Nepalese and some Tibetan circles.Early morning person (talk) 19:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

References

Depression

I removed the large, recent addition of material [2] on Yoga as a treatment for depression. The information was poorly sourced and too inaccurate and inconsistent with our other articles on depression and mindfulness . There's probably some information that can be salvaged if we keep an eye to WP:NPOV, WP:MEDRS, and WP:FRINGE. --Ronz (talk) 17:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yoga and meditation

Excellent clean-up done on this article by 2over2. One question, however: I’m not sure about the joining of yoga (meaning the physical aspect) and meditation. It is certainly true, from my reading, that in India, prior to 1900, the two went hand in hand, along with the other 6 of the 8 limbs of yoga expounded by Patanjali. However, it’s also my understanding that beginning with the teaching of Krishnamacharya in the 1920’s, who mentored a couple of the most influential yoga teachers to come to the west, Iyengar and Patabi Jois (Ashtanga Yoga), 'yoga' became its own thing, generally separate from meditation. Iyengar gives only lip service to meditation and does not recommend it except at very advanced stages. Patabi Jois’s whole thing is asana practice, meditation only as a very secondary thing. And in most yoga schools that I have read about, its all about asanas. Perhaps 1 in 10 may encourage learning and practicing meditation. Early morning person (talk) 22:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks :). It is my understanding that anything except purely aerobic yoga involves guided imagery during each posture and through the transitions. I freely admit, however, that this understanding is based on my own limited datasets of exposure and experience. There is certainly room for expanded treatment here of what is entailed in a session of each of the major sub-types of yoga, and the global popularity of each (keeping in mind the limited scope of this article, of course). Poking around our yoga family of articles, I find no reason to change my impression that the exercise is commonly conjoined with meditation of some sort, and I have not found anywhere better to put the relevant sources and information. The research base is highly heterogeneous, but I see the sourcing as sufficient that we should treat both aspects here. In looking for sources, I also found a few unusable promotional sources that asserted some unspecified synergy between the two aspects, making their brand of practice superior to superficially similar exercise. This again suggests that the whole should be treated here, with the exceptions called out. - 2/0 (cont.) 05:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I think how we approach this issue of physical and mental aspects of yoga will continue to be important throughout the life of this article. I found this article "Which Yoga is Right For You?" at http://www.yogajournal.com/basics/2353 as a citation to a statement made in the article suggesting that, 'yoga in this sense refers mostly to the postures and not as much to pranayama. yoga sometimes involves meditation.' I do not have the exact phrasing from the article but that was the gist of it. I think it's funny how the article by Yoga Journal describes how frequently some aspect of meditation is incorporated into the class. In response to Early morning person, I think that it depends on how you define meditation. All the classes I've been to involve a session of savasana at the end and perhaps the teacher just suggests students relax or perhaps she leads them through a guided imagery. Even if it is just the suggestion to relax I would consider that to be a sort of self-induced mental state, which can be called meditation. At the same time I think Early morning person has a good point that historically yoga was done primarily to prepare for meditation whereas these days it is done for it's own benefits (more or less, summarizing here since it's the Talk page).makeswell (talk) 08:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Your point is well taken. That Yoga Journal article does note that some type of meditation is taught in 11 out of 19 of the listed schools or forms of yoga. However, lets stay on the lookout for what other reliable sources have to say on this point--we can't really conclude that because over half of the "schools" of yoga include meditation in their teaching that over half of yoga classes in general do. From what I've seen and read, these schools take the meditation and spiritual side of yoga more seriously do non-affilated yoga studios, and the latter, from what I've seen, attract the majority of yoga practitioners in the West. My personal experience of checking out quite a few different types of yoga in non-affiliated yoga studios is that most classes only include meditation in a loose sense of the word-- as you have noted in the lead, some guided imagery (often just for a few minutes at the end), some music, some attention to breath. Only very rarely have I had a teacher have us actually close our eyes and meditate, and those were yoga classes with an stated Buddhist influence. But I think you're quite right to include mention of these features (imagery, breath work, etc) in the lead, because they are definitely an important part of the modern practice of yoga, from what I've seen and read. EMP (talk) 00:20, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Cure vs Treat

I'm changing the word "cure" to "treat" in the second paragraph. Saying that "some yoga practitioners assert that yoga 'cures' diseases" should have a citation, seems to me. The word "treats" is a compromise until a citation can be added to support the original statement. What do others think? Octopet (talk) 10:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Octopet (talk • contribs)

Weasel words

I'm curious about the "weasel words" tag that was added, and would like to know what words are suspect. I think the tag was added by Yoga Mat, but I wasn't able to locate that person's talk page to ask them directly.Octopet (talk) 16:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm considering removing this tag, unless someone can point out which are the Weasel words.Octopet (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of vague expressions that use a passive voice to avoid having to specify any authoritativeness of the statement and conceal the full picture. There are too many generalizations. The first line is a good case in point - the word "yoga" has about fifty different meanings !! Again, (not looking any further down) we have "Yoga teachers assert that yoga stimulates the flow of healing "life energy", or prana" - well some might - but again this is not a universal idea or take the simplistic view that prana is exculsively a "healing" energy. Therefore, I have reinstated the weasel words tag for the time being — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoga Mat (talk • contribs) 11:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is specifically about yoga as exercise and alternative healing, and I agree the first line is a bit confusing. However, rather than adding a weasel tag and leaving, do you have a specific suggestion for improvement?

As for 'healing energy or prana,' our opinion of the concept is not relevant. It is a core principle of yoga so should be included in this article. I'll look for a reliable reference.Octopet (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added a citation for the yoga principle of prana[3]. If there are other specific cases justifying the weasel tag, please correct the content or provide references.Octopet (talk) 16:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the weasel tag since no other concerns have been brought up.Octopet (talk) 01:09, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The citation is for the meaning of the word "prana" only - which was never in dispute - the dispute is whether "Yoga teachers assert that yoga stimulates the flow of healing life energy" - and to be frank - this is what needs to be cited. Who is saying that? There is much wishful thinking here and unverified value judgements about the therapeutic effects of yoga specifically which must be discuused before the weasel words tag can be removed permanently. This article has multiple issues and uses a passive voice to avoid having to specify any authoritativeness of the statements being made. It conceals the fuller picture. There are too many generalizations. Yoga Mat (talk) 11:38, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes I agree with you that the statement "Yoga teachers assert..." is vague, but in my opinion this is a CE issue that can be corrected by rewriting the sentence. Any suggestions? Or I'll work on it next time I'm back and post my suggestion.

As for your other points about wishful thinking etc. and the use of the weasel tag, WP:DRIVEBY essay states "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies..."

The Refimprove or templates might be more useful choices for this article than the weasel tag.[[4]]Octopet (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the weasel tag to Refimprove.Octopet (talk) 16:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, I removed the sentence 'Yoga teachers assert...' pending verifiable source.Octopet (talk) 16:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

If you have a problem with a specific word, the appropriate thing to do is to not use an article or section box, but use an inline template right after that word. See Template:Weasel-inline for one example. There are others. In addition, listing the words and problems here, might get them fixed quicker. Depends on which editors have their eyes on an article. I generally only do that after the inline-template has been on an article for several months. Using inline templates here, would have saved a lot of talk page clutter, and gotten the article improved sooner. Yes, you have to search down the appropriate Template(s), but that a minute's effort each, at most, and then you know it for a long time Lentower (talk) 01:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Yoga therapy addition not reliably sourced

I am happy to see the following added info concerning the availability of a yoga therapy training program in the US. "In the United States, certification as a Professional Yoga Therapist is available, and continuing education are offered.[27][28]" This is valuable information. But more work needs to be done before it can remain. You have listed just two organizations offering yoga therapy certification. Many wikipedians would consider this promotional or even spam. See WP:Spam. It is my understanding that there are at least 10 organizations in North America that offer yoga therapy certification. I see three in the US listed at the Yoga Alliance website, and I know for a fact that there are at least three others in Canada. Please consider doing a little more research and find a reliale secondary source that discusses the availability of yoga therapy certification. What you list are PRIMARY sources, which are not generally acceptable. One problem from using a primary source in this situation is that we do not know whether the organizations that you cite are good ones. But if you could find a listing of yoga therapy certifiers in a reliable secondary source, such as the Yoga Alliance website, or Yoga Journal's, that would give more confidence in the organizations being listed. And it would also provide more complete information to the readers. I will look around for such information, but hopefully you will beat me to it. But thanks for addition. It's good to cover this area and you're definitely on the right track. Early morning person (talk) 14:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah. Honestly, the way I even came upon the subject was rather stupid - doing a "PYT" disambiguation page. I found this as one that could be included, and just sort of dumped something in there quickly to, well, get something in there. My knowledge on the subject is zero, possibly less. So do with it as you wish. I do understand the sensitivity to primary sources/POV/spammish entries here, though. I was poking around some of the other in-article links, and some (particularly the ones listed at the end of "History" seem to me to be pretty bad. See my "Multiple Issues" addition to Yin yoga, for example. Maybe the subject just lends itself to this sort of issue, I don't know. Will leave this to those of you who know the subject to take on - I can only do more damage if I try to take it further :D Ψν^Psi_nu 15:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Feedback on recent addns to this artcle

Pospsychspring11, thanks for your several helpful additions to the article. Your new section on yoga and postive psychology looks really good, and from a quick look, is well sourced.

However, for the yoga as religion addition, it is not immediately obvious what is the relation of this section to the topic of the article. Also, I am concerned about the lack of secondary sources and mindfulness sections. In the religion section, you reference only the Yoga Sutras, which is a primary source.

The new Mindfulness section certainly is germane to the article; but again, I would suggest that you find secondary sources for the idea that mindfulness has been a fundamental aspect of yoga for centuries. This point is not obvious and needs to be sourced.

However, your new section on physical aspects of yoga is well sourced and certainly relevant to the topic. And you have added valuable additional scientific information. I have moved into a more prominent position the key details of a 2010 general review of research on yoga and mental health, per WP:MEDRS, which gives a higher priority to published reviews of research, vs. individual studies, even when those individual studies are peer-reviewed. From my reading on the subject, scientists are still tentative in their conclusions about the effect of yoga on depression, although the evidence of a positive effect on anxiety seems strong. However, for reasons outlined in the 2010 review mentioned, it may well be that more careful research now underway will bring out more positive findings about yoga and depression. Have to be patient until then.

Thanks again for the valuable additions to this article. Early morning person (talk) 14:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Free images

As it seems, there are already good and enough images showing yoga positions, neverthless I will point at this yoga images at flickr. --Pilettes (talk) 11:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. But each image has to be added to Commons with a use rationale, and usually permission from the copyright holder. See Wikipedia:Image_use_policy. If you could work with the owner(s) of these images to get them added to Wikipedia, that would be a big help. They should also be added to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Asana. Lentower (talk) 04:50, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The images are licensed under CC-BY 2.0. See this image for example. They can be uploaded at Wikimedia Commons under the same license, there is nothing more to do. It would be nice to place a comment under the image, so they know, and other potential Wikimedia Commons uploaders too, that this image is already uploaded. But this is not necessary. --Pilettes (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Good to know. Hopefully, someone will use the resource. Lentower (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Prana

I'm parking this sentence until I, or someone else, can find a citation for this statement attributed to yoga teachers: "Yoga teachers assert that yoga stimulates the flow of healing "life energy", or prana, and can treat a wide variety of illnesses and complaints. Octopet (talk) 16:20, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Lentower, I noticed you undid an edit I made, in which I removed the above sentence. Please explain. Please look at the discussion above (about weasel words), where another editor and I discussed this sentence. I added the reference about prana, but I agree with Yoga Mat that the phrase "yoga teachers assert..." is not verified and should be removed until citation is available. Octopet (talk) 00:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I don't understand your problem with this sentence. So let me give you a quick GA/FA style analysis. if you're not up to speed yet on WP (Wikipedia) abbreviations, first insert "WP:<abbrev>" in the search box, then consult the Glossary (in WP space, i believe), third, ask me. This sentence has a cite at the end to a RS. This sentence is an decent summary of part of that RS. I AGF on the part of the editor(s) who added the cite, and worked on this sentence. The word 'assert' might be viewed as biased, if this WP article had NPOV problems. But it's fairly balanced. If you want to improve or expand the sentence based on the cited RS, that would be ok. Parking or deleting it is not. (At least I got to WikiGnome some syntax in two cites, and spread some education around. ; - ) Lentower (talk) 01:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

As an editor concerned with improving WP, I consider parking content on a Talk Page a last resort. Usually reserved for BLP issues, or ones of similar very serious weight.

I prefer to see inline templates, like {{cn}} ^{[citation needed]}, added to problems words and sentences. The inline template approach often gets the article improved quicker. Respects the AGF editing of others. Provides the reader with the information, but flagging that it might have some problems. A win all around. Lentower (talk) 01:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Yoga_as_exercise_or_alternative_medicine&diff=next&oldid=441838896 Where exactly does it back up this sentence. The page is an introduction and an abstract. I've read it and it does not mention such a claim. It mentions the melioration of some insults with yoga, but the sentence, not that sentence, which may be a paraphrase, and a very liberal at that. Please specifically say why you think the link backs up that statement.Curb Chain (talk) 12:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Please see my edit summary. Please fix the problem with your browser, computer, ISP, or whatever the problem is, that prevents you from seeing the whole article. Please also read WP:AGF and treat other editors with that courtesy. Lentower (talk) 15:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I may have been impolite, in that last sentence. I implied in my first remark, that I had briefly reviewed this RS. Perhaps you didn't understand that review was the whole article. Even so, reading WP:AGF does helps one understand working with other editors here. Lentower (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Dear Lentower, I honor your intention to help improve WP. That's why we're all here and WP is about working together and collaborating in a respectful and civil way. However, I disagree with your revert of an edit that was supported by recent discussion and consensus and was not supported by the current citation. This is standard WP editing. The fact that the editor who placed the text there originally, did so in good faith, has nothing to do with its accuracy. If you want to re-instate the text then it will need to be changed to accurately reflect the source. (BTW, I was the one who added that citation although I did not write the original sentence. I added it to support the concept of prana as integral to the topic of yoga. However I agree with YogaMat that the phrase "yoga teachers assert" is unsupported and needs a reference.)

How about if we replace the current text with this text in brackets which accurately reflects the source: [According to an article in the Journal of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine, the system of Hatha Yoga believes that prana, or 'life energy' is absorbed into the body through the breath.]----Raub, J. A. (2002). “Psychophysiologic Effects of Hatha Yoga on Musculoskeletal and Cardiopulmonary Function: A Literature Review”. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 8(6): 797-812. doi:10.1089/10755530260511810. [5]“In the practice of yoga, the whole life-energy of the universe is called prana. In Hatha Yoga,therefore, prana is absorbed by the breath, through the breathing. The manner in which we breathe sets off energy vibrations that influence our entire being..” (This text in quotes is contained in the body of the article, not in the abstract.)Octopet (talk) 18:02, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

If you go with this, I suggest you replace 'According to an article in the Journal of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine,' with 'Its believed ' -- the journal name is in the citation. I also suggest you go with a full {{cite web so you can add this field '|quote = In the practice of yoga, the whole life-energy of the universe is called prana. In Hatha Yoga,therefore, prana is absorbed by the breath, through the breathing. The manner in which we breathe sets off energy vibrations that influence our entire being..'

But I can no longer look at the whole article on-line. It's now telling me I need to be a subscriber. Perhaps the site gives each user a few free looks? I believe WP guideline don't like web citations to sources that require accounts, even if they are free. if you have access to a paper copy of this Journal, you could used {{cite journal. Lentower (talk) 19:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the sentence as I proposed above. IMO "It is believed" is as unsubstantiated as "some yoga teachers assert," but if anyone wants to tweak it, feel free to do so. Octopet (talk) 00:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

References

Lead

I suggest an alternative to the current lead sentence, so that it reflects recent, major advances in scholarship on the history of yoga and on the practice of the physical postures of yoga, aka hatha yoga.

The current lead:

Yoga is a term for a range of traditional systems of physical exercise and meditation in Hinduism.

Suggested lead:

Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine refers mainly to hatha yoga, which focuses on certain types and sequences of physical postures.

Followed by the unchanged second para:

Modified versions of the physical exercises in hatha yoga have become popular as a kind of low-impact physical exercise, and are used for therapeutic purposes.[1][2][3] "Yoga" in this sense and in common parlance refers primarily to the asanas but less commonly to pranayama. Aspects of meditation are sometimes included.[4][5]

Rationale: It seems to me that the current lead gives undue weight to the connection of yoga with Hinduism. Recent scholarly work, which has been well accepted, indicates that the yoga postures widely practiced today have little connection to the ancient tradition of yoga. The 2010 scholarly book, Yoga Body: The Origins of Modern Posture Practice, by Mark Singleton, concludes that the relationship of hatha yoga—the main form of yoga employed in yoga for exercise and alternative medicine—and the ancient tradition of yoga (and Hinduism) is quite weak. The respected yoga historian Georg Feurstein has said of Singleton's work, “He and other researchers have shown that what we in the west consider as Hatha Yoga is chiefly a 19th century invention.” This has been disconcerting to many in the yoga community, who had assumed that the yoga they had learned in their yoga studios had come from an ancient tradition of wisdom. But the truth is, says Feurstein, reflecting on Singleton's careful scholarship, that although today’s practice of physical yoga postures “routinely appeals to the tradition of Indian hatha yoga, contemporary posture based yoga cannot really be considered a direct successor of this tradition.”

Singleton found, for example, that one of the key historical figures in the export of yoga asana practice to the West, T. Krishnamacharya--guru to Iyengar, Patabhi Jois, and Indra Devi, each with huge followings in the West--derived many of his postures from gymnastics.

The other problem with the lead is that it implies that the practice of yoga asanas is a Hindu practice. But from what I have read and seen, most people who teach and practice postural yoga have no religious intent. Also, from what I have read and seen, most Hindus do not practice yoga asanas. They do not consider it an important part of their religious tradition. Therefore, it seems misleading to imply that yoga is Hinduism. EMP (talk 22:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your rationale. This was the lead as I found it,

Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine primarily involves hatha yoga, which focuses on physical postures. Modified versions of the physical exercises in hathayoga have become popular as a kind of low-impact physical exercise, and are used for therapeutic purposes. "Yoga" in this sense and in common parlance refers primarily to the asanas but less commonly to pranayama. Aspects of meditation are sometimes included.

I changed it to this,

Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine is a modern phenomenon which has been influenced by the ancient Indian practice of Yoga and which involves holding stretches as a kind of low-impact physical exercise, and is often used for therapeutic purposes. Yoga in this sense refers to a practice that often occurs in a group and may involve meditation, imagery, breath work and music.

My main concern with the form I found it in was that it had come to emphasize 'physical postures' (perhaps even the fact that the word 'physical' is needed before 'postures' reflects some bias in the article?) whereas anyone who has been to a yoga class will tell you that yes, they often involve elements of music, meditation, imagery, breath work, etc. Also I thought it would be best to define 'Yoga as exercise and alternative medicine' from the ground up and not assume the reader know it involves stretches which are held for some period of time and often takes place in groups. On a side note this article does need more information about the physical benefits of yoga in the sense of how it influences the heart and perhaps also weight loss, which has actually been a primary focus of modern research. I'm going to try to add this kind of info if I have time and am definitely going to add a section here on the Talk page about it. makeswell (talk) 08:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Yoga and mindfulness

There continues to be no citation for the sentence, "Mindfulness has been a fundamental aspect of yoga since its early documentation in the Yoga Sutra." even tho it has long been flagged with a [citation needed] note.

The sentence can be seen here [6]

The whole para on mindfulness hinges on the validity of this statement. I took a look at Google Books and could not easily find a citation supporting the idea that mindfulness has been a fundamental aspect of yoga since the time of the Yoga Sutra. If no one else can find a citation, I propose to remove the paragraph. EMP (talk) 01:20, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Removed para, subject to provision of appropriate ref.EMP (talk) 01:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

It would seem appropriate to mention that yoga is a primary part of a class in Mindfulness-based stress reduction.makeswell (talk) 07:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Sure, MBSR is very widely practiced, and if it is often linked with yoga, as reported in reliable sources, then that is worth mentioning. EMP (talk) 04:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

"Physical" side of yoga

It seems like we have done a lot of talking on the Talk page about how yoga might function as exercise and effect the heart and metabolism similar to how exercise does, but have failed to really discuss this topic on the article page. The article does mention how yoga is used to treat clinical populations, for instance epileptics. We have addressed this topic here, Talk:Yoga_as_exercise_or_alternative_medicine#Lead and even in the very first section of this Talk page, Talk:Yoga_as_exercise_or_alternative_medicine#Introduction, as well as in multiple other places in the Talk page. Someone even added a (unsigned) comment saying she wished to come to the article page to read about the physical benefits of yoga. I think it is appropriate we are concerned with how yoga compares to exercises and how or if it shares some of the benefits which we hear so often that exercise is supposed to confer on us, such as has to do with the heart and metabolism and lower disease risk, treatment for depression, and so on.

This material,

The physical benefits of yoga are linked to the release of β-endorphins and the shift caused in neurotransmitter levels linked to emotions such as dopamine and serotonin. These benefits are most likely in high-intensity practices of yoga. Lower-intensity yoga practices, which includes a majority of yoga, typically spark the "relaxation response" as defined by Dr. Herbert Benson. This response is typified by a "physiological de-activation" of tenseness and control over one’s body. Benson related this release of control to the implicit dominance of the parasympathetic nervous system (PNS).

was in the article. I am putting it here because I think it is original research. If it is not original research please correct me! However it seems to me like an article titled, "Behaviorally Induced Hypertension in the Squirrel Monkey Population," would not support the claim that yoga sparks the, 'relaxation response.'

Certainly looks fishy, but it might be worth looking at the actual paper to see if indeed they discussed the relaxation response in humans. Its not uncommon for scientists to study animals and then apply their findings to human physiology.

However, in any case, I think you're probably right in removing that text, because it would seem to be in violation of WP:SYNTH. Someone has synthesised conclusions from three different refs, conclusions which none of the refs themselves have made. EMP (talk) 04:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I am going to try to add as much as I can about how yoga functions as exercise in the coming days but I think this topic should be continued into the future and beyond and stuff. makeswell (talk) 08:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this kind of info would be great for this article. Another area that seems relevant: I've seen indications that there are explcit ties between hatha yoga and ayurveda medicine. For example, I have read that Krishnamacharya, the teacher of the famous BKS Iyengar and other yoga luminaries, taught that there is an intimate connection between the two. EMP (talk) 04:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I notice discussion of a close relationship between yoga and ayurveda medicine in several reliable sources, for example the following two articles in Yoga Journal: [7]; and [8], this book, by AG Mohan, a student of Krishnamacharya, [9]; and this book by noted yoga teacher Gary Kraftsow: [10]. EMP (talk) 23:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

References

General Additions and Possible Rearrangments

Hi all! I am currently working on possible additions, edits, and/or rearranging of some headings, body and references etc. I'm doing my best to review some of the interests that people have been talking about on the page for this article. I'd love to expand on it as this topic is of definite interest to me personally. I was hoping to try separating the mental conditions from the physical conditions so that a reader could easily search for what they're most interested in instead of having to read through each condition to figure out if it applies to them. I am also hoping to add to some of the conditions as well as find some updated or additional research to include and reference. Mainly for the ones that only have a sentence to their description such as ADHD, back pain, epilepsy, etc. This is a brainstorm-in-action kind of thing because I'd like to hear people's response to any and all changes I may make. I understand if you revert the entire page back to its original form once I'm done but please consider the changes I'm making and feel free to add to them or make suggestions to me as I really do care about this topic and would love to see what other information there is to offer the public. I'm completely open to constructive criticism!

Thanks!

Knmoeller (talk) 13:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)knmoeller

Glad to have you working on the article. It needs a lot of work.

Note that any health claim must be backed with WP:MEDRS sources, and that WP:FRINGE applies to the article topic in general. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Great, Knmoeller. I look forward to seeing your improvements. One small suggestion: save your changes one or two at a time, rather than making many changes and saving them all together in one fell swoop. That way, its easier to appreciate exactly you're doing, and respond, if a response seems called for. EMP (talk) 04:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Consider renaming this article because it is not really about exercise. "Yoga and Health" may be a more appropriate title. Oka6 (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2018 (UTC)oka6 I'd also like to include more supporting references for the argument of "yoga as exercise", please see the references below: --Bridges, L., & Sharma, M. (2017). The Efficacy of Yoga as a Form of Treatment for Depression. Journal of Evidence-Based Complementary & Alternative Medicine,22(4), 1017-1028. doi:10.1177/2156587217715927 Manincor, M., Bensoussan, A., Smith, C. A., Barr, K., Schweickle, M., Donoghoe, L., & ... de Manincor, M. (2016). INDIVIDUALIZED YOGA FOR REDUCING DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY, AND IMPROVING WELL-BEING: A RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED TRIAL. Depression & Anxiety (1091-4269), 33(9), 816-828. doi:10.1002/da.2250 Muzik M, Hamilton SE, Lisa Rosenblum K, Waxler E, Hadi Z. Mindfulness yoga during pregnancy for psychiatrically at-risk women: preliminary results from a pilot feasibility study. Com- plement Ther Clin Pract. 2012;18:235-240. Tekur P, Nagarathna R, Chametcha S, Hankey A, Nagendra HR. A comprehensive yoga programs improves pain, anxiety and depression in chronic low back pain patients more than exercise: an RCT. Complement Ther Clin Pract. 2012;20:107-118.Oka6 (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2018 (UTC)oka6

Note that alternative medicine journal sources typically do not meet the encyclopedia requirements of WP:MEDRS for health topics. The sources you've shown above are either WP:PRIMARY or WP:FRINGE, and so would not be acceptable for the article. --Zefr (talk) 14:53, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Parking text

I have removed a sentence from the article because its key point (below in bold) does not seem to be supported by the ref cited. The quotation in the ref (see below) does not support the point that a substance known as prana (and by implication yoga practices aimed at increasing the absorption and influence of this substance) can alleviate illnesses. Also, I have read the paper, and I cannot find this point anywhere in it:

The sentence: According to an article in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, the system of hatha yoga believes that prana, or healing "life energy" is absorbed into the body through the breath, and can treat a wide variety of illnesses and complaints.[15]

Ref: Raub, J. A. (2002). "Psychophysiologic Effects of Hatha Yoga on Musculoskeletal and Cardiopulmonary Function: A Literature Review". The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine: "In the practice of yoga, the whole life-energy of the universe is called prana. In hatha yoga, therefore, prana is absorbed by the breath, through the breathing. The manner in which we breathe sets off energy vibrations that influence our entire being."

If someone can explain how this ref supports the main point of the sentence removed, I’m happy to restore the text. EMP (talk) 04:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Potentially valuable source

I don't know if this source is used in any of the many Yoga articles, but I should think it would be useful here at least. It's labeled "Review article", but seems to be rather a review of reviews. The authors are from Germany, India and USA (Boston and Seattle). A full text PDF is accessible from this page.

Review Article: Effects of Yoga on Mental and Physical Health: A Short Summary of Reviews

Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 165410, 7 pages http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2012/165410

--Hordaland (talk) 23:49, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a fringe (altmed) journal, and for a long time its publisher was labelled as "predatory": approach with caution. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 04:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

removal of cited material

@Alexbrn: The information you're marking as poorly sourced is biographical. News articles are acceptable for this type of information even in a medical article. "the high-quality popular press can be a good source for social, biographical, current-affairs, financial, and historical information in a medical article." -WP:MEDPOP So please self-revert as I do not want to start edit warring with you. If you want to clean up the information I would welcome that, but the fact that certain teams or players use yoga is not medical information and can, according to wiki policy, be used in this article. Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 05:50, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Stating, in Wikipedia's voice, that Hatha yoga is used to "maximize performance" (etc.) is a WP:BIOMEDICAL assertion and so requires WP:MEDRS which the Guardian piece is not. As for the Ryan Giggs stuff, the Guardian merely makes a passing mention of yoga ("Ryan Giggs has been doing yoga for years") and does not even specify Hatha yoga, so there is a WP:V violation too in saying "Hatha Yoga is used extensively within British soccer to minimize injury". Pure puffery. Alexbrn (talk) 06:12, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I will accept the whole thing is pretty flimsy. I'm definitely not attached to it. But saying they use it to "maximize performance" is not technically a biomedical assertion. They could use hatha yoga to regrow limbs, they'd just be idiots. It doesn't mean it's an accepted medical fact, just the view of those teams. But, yeah...as far as what the article says about Ryan Giggs, it appears you're dead right. The article only mentions that he's been doing it and nothing about what teams use it. They were both terrible references. Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 06:41, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Getting rid of Template:Alternative medical systems

This template seems like garbage.. I think this article contains very little in terms of Alternative medicine, and would be better off without this series infobox. I also would suggest renaming the article to remove the Alternative Medicines claims in the page title. Shaded0 (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I will actually take back my claim that it contains little on alternative medicine.. on the basis that the medical claims and sources really don't comply with Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Poor article quality, will take another look at editing this before adding the tag for rename discussion. Shaded0 (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
  • User:Shaded0 What about renaming it? I do think the name is odd. It sounds like it's begging for WP:SYNTH. —PermStrump(talk) 01:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
    • Looking over the history of the talk page, I don't see any consensus on why the two were merged, seeing as most likely it was followed up upon independently as a merge tag. I think renaming would be valid, although I haven't fully evaluated the article to see that the alternative medicine content has been fully vetted or removed. But seeing as it's probably *good enough* with recent edits (if they stand through consensus and review), I think a more science/fitness based article may fit with the new title. Granted, I am a bit biased in wanting to move this article to be more fitness driven since Yoga itself seems a more eastern article (and much more up to par) article. New article name being Yoga as exercise as it was before. Shaded0 (talk) 04:29, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Methodological quality of source

Shaded0, do you mind clarifying this removal? What has low methodological quality? It seems like a systematic review in Academic Pediatrics would be a good source. —PermStrump(talk) 02:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

You can re-add if you would like, but I didn't think it was at face value very notable, since it was asserting a negative. You can re-add if you would like, I don't have a strong feeling on the removal. There are still other things that could probably be edited, added, or removed though before considering this anywhere close to GA or B rated article. Shaded0 (talk) 04:24, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

It's probably irrelevant if it moves to your suggestion below, so I'll sit on it for now. —PermStrump(talk) 01:35, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 11 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

---

Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine → Yoga as exercise – Removing alternative medicine association, seems article was previously merged based upon talk page archive history. The alternative medicine content seems to have been largely removed by myself and others as being poorly sourced and bogus. Since the alternative medicine claims seem high disputed (and can largely be accompanied by medical claims of fitness IMO) - this move should be improve quality by helping to focus on Western fitness and steering article towards this direction. Shaded0 (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment and support Hatha Yoga as exercise. There are many forms of yoga, the physical form that most Westerners recognize as 'Yoga' is 'Hatha yoga'. Whatever the name of this page turns out to be, it should include the word 'Hatha' as a qualifier. Randy Kryn 00:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
  • The common name in the sources is "yoga". "Hatha" can be specified in the article, but IMO it's better to leave it out of the title. —PermStrump(talk) 01:37, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

The common name of yoga as physical exercise is 'Hatha yoga', the specific form of yoga featured and discussed in this article. Hatha yoga is the only topic described as 'yoga' which results in further muscle strength and flexibility (unless the term "exercise" is expanded on the page to include mental aspects of the science, or the physical exercise it takes to do good deeds if someone adopts that form of yoga, or the exercising of the lungs and abdomen muscles when pranayama is practiced). Yes, "Yoga" may be the common name for "Hatha yoga" in the west, but changing the terms meaning into an all-inclusive definer doesn't seem encyclopedic. Randy Kryn 04:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

I would probably agree with the "common usage" argument. Both names are better than the existing article name. My one doubt is that Hatha yoga might be a less inclusive term if there are other forms of western yoga that don't associate as being Hatha Yoga. Shaded0 (talk) 03:57, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

• Support "Yoga as exercise". —PermStrump(talk) 01:34, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
• Closing comment: I note this reverses a previous move made as part of the merge, but neither the target article nor its talk page contained any significant content or history. Andrewa (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

naming question

Does the change in name of this article bring it into the scope of WP:MEDRS? I think it does. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 10:05, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

It should have been there already if its scope was exercise for either Western or alternative medicine as it seems to have been. There is clearly scope for improving its sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Evidence base

• Vox article by Julia Belluz summarizes and provides links to the few decent bits of research on yoga as therapy, starting with the 1975 Lancet randomized controlled study of yoga for hypertension. There's a dozen studies and some serious review articles. We should aim to report on those in the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Name change from "Yoga for therapeutic purposes"

"Yoga as therapy" isn't imho an improvement, more a step back. was better before. Yoga isn't a therapy. See previous discussion on this page, above. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 10:09, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's why there's the word "as" in there: yoga is, like it or not, sometimes used as a therapy, and the article neutrally presents what evidence there is from systematic reviews that this works. After all, "for therapeutic purposes" means only "used as a therapy", stated in bigger words. I don't see any discussion of this in earlier threads, and in any case the article's content was very different; it is now sharply focused on systematically gathered evidence. The direct statement "Yoga isn't a therapy" suggests a personal point of view; however, there is no doubt, as reliably cited in the article, that attempts have been made by therapists in several fields of modern Western medicine to use yoga as a therapy, and there is some evidence that some of these attempts work. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:26, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh dear me. Therapy implies treatment. Can you tell me what "Yoga as therapy" treats? -Roxy, the dog. wooF 13:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Er, read the article and the cited systematic reviews? What is your distinction between "as therapy" and "for therapeutic purposes" - I see them as synonyms, one clunkier than the other; you appear to see them as different. The article carefully distinguishes standard medicine from pseudoscience. It looks to me as if we have here a case where I barely mind which phrase is used, whereas some group of people minds very much, in which case we should switch back to the other title. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:12, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

I feel that a quote of the entire lead of our Therapy article is appropriate -

A therapy or medical treatment (often abbreviated tx, Tx, or T_x) is the attempted remediation of a health problem, usually following a diagnosis.

As a rule, each therapy has indications and contraindications. There are many different types of therapy. Not all therapies are effective. Many therapies can produce unwanted adverse effects.

Treatment and therapy are generally considered synonyms. However, in the context of mental health, the term therapy may refer specifically to psychotherapy.

A therapy treats, is expected to have results. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 13:27, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

That's all very grand, even impassioned, but it does not begin to answer my question, which is what is the difference between "as therapy" and "for therapeutic purposes" in your mind. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:55, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Fair's fair. You havn't answered my question , and I asked first. But *YES it should move back to "for therapeutic purposes" as considerably more appropriate. As I said in answer to your question, a therapy implies a number of things with it, for a starters a condition that the therapy is intended to treat, and perhaps even an outcome that the therapy is intended to bring. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 16:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Eh? Yes I did, I referred you to the cited article text, which will always be more precise than any amount of uncited talk. However, the article lists a series of conditions that yoga has been researched as therapy for, such as low back pain and mental disorders, and it presents the systematic review evidence that it works on these conditions, such as it is; and it says plainly that people have studied whether it works on other specific conditions, and the answer on that is mostly no. If you want to put the name back, feel free; but you still haven't answered my question. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

I've had some time thinking, rather than knee-jerk responding. I get better perspective that way. I have watched the work you have done to bring this article up to it's current state. As regards my reason for not liking the title as it stands is as stated above all connected to the implications of the word therapy, as I have clumsily tried to explain. A therapy really does need an outcome, and if we write about one, we should describe it. we cant in this case (acupuncture reviews have turned out positive effects for lower back pain, fgs) Do MD's prescribe Yoga to patients? Where is the health problem? I'm still confused. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 22:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks. The research has looked at medical uses of yoga, especially (but not terribly successfully) for PTSD, and rather more successfully for things like back pain, where people who take up yoga often don't then need pain medication at all. Discussing outcomes is sensible and we should add these to the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

"Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Yoga as exercise or alternative medicine. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)