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Has anyone got a reference for the claim about Thomas Blom Hansen?

I was just adding some new content to the article when I noticed this statement Thomas Blom Hansen, a sociologist at the University of Edinburgh, has written Naik's style of memorizing the Qur'an and hadith literature in various languages, and travelling abroad to debate Islam with theologians, has made him extremely popular in Muslim circles. I've tried google-ing for Hansen in the current context and come up with nothing except some personal blogs and articles which have the same statement printed VERBATIM. Does anyone have any citations/references for this? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the references section. Elazeez, I disagree with the addition of more content sourced to primary sources - it is only acceptable incases where Naik is explicitly talking about himself. If this is not the case, and we are instead making deductions on the basis of primary sources, then this material is original research and should be removed. Additionally, there should certainly be no reliance upon primary sources in an article, which I feel is a trend developing here. ITAQALLAH 13:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Secondary sources are very important in helping us to objectively evaluate what should be in a BLP and what should not. Some go so far as to suggest that only material in print biographies should be used, but that is not a consensus view. We need to be thoughtful, caring, and careful. We have time to get it right. Find the best sources and include the most encyclopedic claims. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
In regards to my revision [1]:-
Hmm... You've got a worthy point there; I guess its best to look for some reliable secondary sources before proposing the inclusion of this content again. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Singh

I performed this edit because, on a search, I couldn't find any reference in the source article to the claim that Singh had criticised Naik for a claim that "Eating pork makes one behave like a pig". Singh does take issue with Naik's characterization of pigs as unclean animals (not big news--Naik is a muslim, Singh is not) but does not represent Singh as making the claim quoted in the article. Please check the source and verify. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 00:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The cited article too doesn't show Sinhg saying anything about the claim made viz Singh also expressed surprise at Naik's belief that "Eating pork makes one behave like a pig". (No more Original Research please Agnistus [2] ) 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I did not find any reference too. Saju wiki (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

== Sub-sections ==kghlkhjkn

I created the sub-sections, because it improves the readability of the article a lot. They are removed by another user because a) they are Prospective Troll Magnets b) [you] Can't mention ALL his visits here so no cherry-picking.

It may be true. However, in this way medium-interested people wouldn't be eager to read this amount of continuous text. Furthermore, I believe the mentioned visits of Naik caused some stirr in the press, so they are noteworthy enough to get an apart sub-section. So let us vote: who agrees or disagrees with subsections?

I agree.Jeff5102 (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree because I feel that making sections like these could give an impression like Dr. Naik's delivered only these (3) lectures and all of them have been subjects of controversy. Moreover since [we] cannot include information about all his lectures/visits, it might seem that these 3 were the most note-worthy ones with the criticisms being the highlights. Besides, if we have sections criticising his visits, they might become prospective troll magnets over a period of time with editors concentrating on adding more to those respective sections rather than to the article as a whole. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 11:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand why you disagree. You made some subsections yourself a few weeks ago at Jimmy Swaggart: [3]. What is the difference between the subsections thre and over here?Jeff5102 (talk) 15:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

We cannot make subsections for the same reasons that I've cited above, Jeff. To summarize, if we are to make sub-sections for Dr. Naik's speeches, then why not incorporate a section for all of them instead of a just these three which have been subjects of controversy? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
That is a good idea. As long as they are noteworthy, and well referenced, I cannot see any objection. By the way, are there any written transcripts of his debates? I saw some of them on youtube, but that is no valid source.Jeff5102 (talk) 07:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The only problem with that, Jeff, is that there are too many of them out there. (I heard the number being around 800+). And you're right, YouTube wont qualify as a valid source too; but then if you've been reading the archives out here you'll see that most editors here have reached a consensus at including only that content which has reliable secondary sources supporting it. Hence for any more details of Dr. Naik's lectures to get into this article, they would need reliable media coverage. For these and similar reasons I was against the idea of the seggregation of statements in Lectures and Visits into separate subsections. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't particularly mind sub-sections, but one must be aware not to present the article in a way that leans towards controversy. The only views of Naik and incidences concerning him that need be mentioned are ones that have been covered in third party reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 17:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Ofcourse, Itaq. Your religious persuasion is well-known in Wikipedia circles. - Agnistus (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment on content, not the contributor. ITAQALLAH 00:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. I never thought that lay-out-questions could sprarkle such bitter personal attacks. Too badJeff5102 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jeff. I've removed the sections for now as I don't think they're particularly necessary. ITAQALLAH 15:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Although I must admit that you are right Itaqallah (regarding WP:NPA), I must say that as far as you are concerned; something more appropriate (for you) would be "Comment on the content, not the censor". - Agnistus (talk) 00:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment Deleted. Was slightly angry. My apologies to you, Itaqallah. - Agnistus (talk) 00:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Please just calm down before you post. Don't make personal attacks and then strike them out a minute later - repeatedly doing this starts to look pointish. ITAQALLAH 16:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
WP:POINT has nothing to do with that comment. - Agnistus (talk) 20:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
It has everything to do with habitually making unacceptable comments and then striking them immediately afterwards. ITAQALLAH 15:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
You need to re-read WP:POINT. Especially section 2.1 - Agnistus (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Sections

I feel the "Lectures and Visits" section is very long and needs to be split up into sub-sections soa s to make it more readable. - Agnistus (talk) 12:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I have begun to perform a preliminary splitting up of the section. Comment here on what you feel would be appropriate names for sections, e.t.c. - Agnistus (talk) 12:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Please avoid adding material with unreliable (primary) sources

Wikipedia rules (WP:RS) prohibits adding content with primary sources, especially on a BLP (see WP:BLP). There were several sentences and even a while paragraph in the article sourced to "irf.net". Since irf.net is a primary source, it cannot be used; thus I removed such material. Not only was the material added back without any discussion on the talk page; another primary source was attached to it, further violating WP:RS and WP:BLP. I kindly request all editors/contributors to follow Wikipedia guidelines and refrain from re-inserting content with unreliable sources in the future, until you can provide reliable 3rd-party sources for them. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do not remove reliably sourced content.

Please do not remove reliably sourced content from the article without proper reasons and discussion. The Indian Express is well-known mainstream publication. Declaring such high-quality 3rd-party sources to be unreliable, and removing content with such fallacious claims is nothing more than POV enforcement. It would be best if contributors read Wikipedia guidelines (WP:RS and WP:BLP) before editing. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Like RegenerateThis said, the source is merely an op-ed. Secondly, why do you insert totally unsourced negative material on a BLP while on the other hand insisting on reliable sourcing? ITAQALLAH 21:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
The section "Criticism" has been removed. Secondly; as I said before "The Indian Express is well-known mainstream publication. Declaring such high-quality 3rd-party sources to be unreliable, and removing content with such fallacious claims is nothing more than POV enforcement.". Even if it is an op ed, that does not make the article an unreliable source, since it has been published on such well-known mainstream newspaper. - Agnistus (talk) 00:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The article on the "Indian Express" in my view, qualifies as originating comes from a reliable source. Does the fact that it's an op-ed detract in any way from this ?

My personal opinion is that the quote refers to one of the most controversial and well-known aspects of Naik's ideas, and that it should stay. Giordaano (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that the article is an op-ed does detract from its reliability. It should only really be used for attributing the opinions of the author, certainly not acceptable for saying anything about Naik. ITAQALLAH 17:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The paper which includes the op-ed does have editorial oversight (per WP:RS) and so in my opinion may be used for reporting facts. And those fragments, in which the "Indian Express" quotes Naik, it uses facts, doesn't it? Of course, the conclusions drawn by Sudheendra Kulkarni cannot seen as facts, but the facts he uses can be used. Unless these quotes were disputed, ut I couldn't find such.Jeff5102 (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Agnistus (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove content sourced to reliable 3rd-party sources.

Several sections of the article were removed despite attempts to restore them ([4]). The reasons provided in the edit summary for the deletions are invalid and fail to explain how the information is "irrelevent" (see [5]) despite being published on a National newspaper (The Hindu). Reckless content deletion such as these ([6], [7], e.t.c.) falls under the category of vandalism. Please understand that Wikipedia is not censored to satisfy the particular interests of certain ([8]) groups. I request all editors (esp. User: Elazeez) to follow Wikipedia guidelines while editing. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 21:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll answer rapid-fire to Agnistus' points to save time (and hopefully, some space too) 1.) User:Elazeez was away for the weekend and hence the delay of 3 days in this reply. 2.) 'Irrelevant' connotes irrelevance. I fail to understand how the controversial views of a certain tabloid (which is not the National Newspaper of India BTW) are worthy enough of consideration. Even if for argument's sake I agree that they might deserve any space on WP, to be frank the article only seems like a polemical piece by some critic who's bent on painting Dr. Naik in the same hue as some terrorist organizations. C'mon, can't YOU see the blatantly visible baggage of hate against Naik the article comes with? It's like some nutcase saying Agnistus believes in Hinduism, which is same religious ideology which hardened terrorist Maya Dolas followed all through his career as an extortionist. Don't get me wrong, I hate Dolas but I totally respect your religious views (See Qur'an 6:108 which beckons muslims to respect other communities). You just can't go about likening people good and bad over some view which co-incides amongst them.3.) BTW, there are many incidents when a certain newspaper article contains defamatory content and then (if there's cry over it) there's a public apology printed by the same tabloid a few days later. Have you checked up if there was an apology in any of the days after the printing of the article? 4.) My edit summaries WERE explanatory enough AND I've also called for a discussion on the talk page. A call for discussion is something which you've violated. (See the Bold-Revert-Discuss rule on WP). 5.) Regarding that SlashDot article you've linked about censoring: The article starts off with The New York Times is reporting that Muslim groups are attempting to censor Wikipedia because of images of Muhammad contained in the article about him (PBUH) and rants about some muslims not approving of images of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) being added to the article [[[Muhammed]] on WP. Agnistus, have you considered the [controversy of Rama's Setu] to Lanka? Please do check out the edit histories and discussions on the talk page for the article on WP. No I'm not belittling the mythological significance of the natural formation, all I'm saying is that there are some things which do inflame certain people; and if they protest against those things, you and I don't need to object when a.) it doesn't concern us and b.) we cannot comprehend its significance. It would be diabolic on my part if I used the controversy surrounding the article on Rama's Setu (known as Adam's Bridge too) against you or any other co-editors saying Hindus are trying to censor wikipedia. I am hoping you understand my points Agnistus. I will now proceed to delete that content and expect it to not be re-instated without a consensus here. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
It's not fully conclusive whether Rama Sethu was a natural formation, despite it seeming likely, though this is hardly comparable to censoring Muhammad's article which has been a far bigger issue and entirely based on religious reasons rather than logic. Trips (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree. (with Trips) - Agnistus (talk) 10:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC).
BTW, I found a comment on Slashdot (see [9]) and feel like quoting it. Quote: "This being Islam we're talking about, it propably won't take too long before death threats start flying, and it's always possible some lunatic will decide to carry them out, or take less drastic action, such as a cyber-attack against the Wikipedia servers ... Cue a hundred replies claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance; and maybe it is - I wouldn't know, since I haven't read their holy book. All I know is that it certainly seems attract lots of bloodthirsty lunatics who use their religion as an excuse to live up to their murderous nature."

I reinstated the part fromThe Hindu. THe paper looks reliable enough to me.If there is an apology printed for this article, please let me know.Jeff5102 (talk) 12:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Jeff5102, it is not the The Hindu a reliable source 'feeling' that's being questioned. It is 'undue weight?' that needs an answer. Please understand that 'please let me know' is not a good enough excuse to put up a polemical statement in BLP. Since there's a call for discussion over the issue here, according to WP:BLP, there is a need of a consensus before restoration of deleted content takes place. Quoting WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". It is not Wikipedia's purpose to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Can't you see that presenting a controversial article by The Hindu which likens Dr. Zakir Naik to a terrorist organization can harm his public image? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 06:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
You have got a point at your undue weight-argument.With regards, Jeff5102 (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Abdel, until you find an apology for the article published on The Hindu, you cannot remove the material from the page. There is something called WP:NPOV, that articles have to adhere to. Quote NPOV: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors." An article published by a National newspaper (yes, The Hindu is one) is an extremely reliable 3rd-party source. (WP:RS and WP:V says "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed"). Regarding "A call for discussion is something which you've violated." and "I will now proceed to delete that content and expect it to not be re-instated without a consensus here."; please understand that in Wikipedia, reverting vandalism does not require any discussion or consensus on the talk page. - Agnistus (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC).
1) Its not upto me to find any counter-arguments Agnistus. Being neutral also involves adhering to the policy about WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy which says Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". 2) The Hindu is NOT the National Newspaper of India. Nevermind that claim about a 3rd party that you've made though. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 10:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding WP:NPOV

Agnistus, I am sure you are aware that WP:BLP writes that biographies should be written conservatively. It seems that people have been bloating the section beyond all proportion as if every view of Naik mentioned must be mentioned in intricate detail. You tell us about WP:NPOV, but the spirit of WP:UNDUE - which is to not unduly focus on any aspect of Naik - has been omitted from your comments. Please don't be under the impression that removing such excess constitutes vandalism - it doesn't. ITAQALLAH 15:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have trimmed down the section in question to make it more manageable, as it severely outweighed the rest of the article put together. I've removed the masses of text consisting of "Naik said this, Naik said that" because it's of no encyclopedic value - if you want to quote Naik, consider taking it to Wikiquote. A lot of the other text was of marginal significance, the sources mentioning Naik only in passing or not imparting any information of value about Naik (i.e. 'Naik says hijab is good, Naik says rape is bad, Naik says you should have a beard and mustache'). The sub-section headings, which are an illustration that editors have been getting carried away with the content-bloating and not writing conservatively, have been removed. There is still some more work to do in order to bring the content in line with encyclopedic standards. ITAQALLAH 16:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
For similar reasons, I've deleted the image Burqa Afghanistan01.jpg. There's no reliable reference to support the claim that Naik has endorsed that style of Burqa (probably Afghanistani) as a kind of Hijaab for muslim women. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not focused on any particular view of Naik. Instead many views have been covered in the article. Each view has been reliably quoted to a reliable 3rd-party source. - Agnistus (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

So what? It isn't conservative writing, it imparts no information what would be found in a serious encyclopedia (who cares what he thinks about beards/mustaches??), and constitutes coatracking. ITAQALLAH 18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: I have removed the needless discussion about personal views of Islam or Naik, as talk pages are not the place for this. Please refer to WP:TPG and WP:SOAP. ITAQALLAH 01:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You have absolutely no right to remove my comments from the talk page. Not only do you disrupt the article, but also its talk page. - Agnistus (talk) 06:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Stop being needlessly combative. I did direct you to WP:TPG, which says: "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." If you feel this is wrong, then I'd recommend you take it to AN/I. ITAQALLAH 19:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


Please stop disrupting the article.

It is after putting in much effort that I made this article neat, informative, readable and realibly sourced. Yet some editors (Itaq & Abdel) who seek to censor Wikipedia have continually deleted content without any good reason except POV pushing, despite attempts by other editors to stop it. Please stop disrupting this article. - Agnistus (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

So I reverted all the disruptive edits made by Itaq and Adbel, to maintain encyclopedic quality. - Agnistus (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
'Please stop disrupting...' is not a valid reason for such drastic edits [10] which may be classified as vandalism. Your words I made this article neat, informative, readable and realibly sourced sounds like you want to put up everything that you've written down on this page; and that's unacceptable Agnistus. I've reverted your recent edits (which included putting in an image which 'might' be under the scanner due to its inappropriate licensing info. Please understand the implications of using non-free content on WP) 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 12:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Agnistus, please stop assuming bad faith. And please stop labelling others' edits as disruptive, especially if you give no indication that you are wary of the concerns raised. This is not a sandbox for mass-quoting everything Naik has ever said. Consider taking it to Wikiquote. ITAQALLAH 16:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just reverted some edits (in this-->[11]) to the last version which didn't have them. WP:BLP#Restoring_deleted_content asks for a consensus to be reached before restoration of deleted content takes place. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
As I said before, Abdel; reverting vandalism does not require consensus. The edit/revert which you did, made the article everything but informative and readable. Not only did you indulge in mass deletions of reliably sourced contnet, you also got rid of the sections (which made the article more readable), all wihtout any proper reason or explanation. This is vandalism that certainly deserves blocking. - Agnistus (talk) 09:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Agnistus, if you continue to wrongly call edits vandalism, then you may be blocked for incivility. Elazeez and myself have explained why quotefarming and coatracking on a BLP is totally unacceptable. ITAQALLAH 01:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Any user/admin can clear see the disruptive nature of your edits. You yourself know perfectly well that your edits/censorship is in full violation of WP rules. Yet you continue to indulge in them so as to fulfill your personal agenda. Please explain how repeatedly deleting reliably sourced content can be considered as constructive "edits" and not vandalism. Also show me a Wikipedia rule that prohibits quoting the subject in a BLP. Itaqallah, if you continue to repeadetly remove reliably sourced material, you may be blocked for vandalism. - Agnistus (talk) 06:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess that we need here is WP:3. Without blaming anyone for these problems, this leads to nowhere. Could you all three agree with that?Jeff5102 (talk) 12:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree; a 3rd opinion would be very useful, provided the opinion comes from an unbiased neutral preferablly non-muslim user. - Agnistus (talk) 06:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I've bowed out of this discussion, but I agree with including the reliably sourced content. Removing it repeatedly smacks of POV-pushing in my view. S. Dean Jameson 12:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Reinserting mass-quotes and content which clearly shifts an undue focus onto Naik's views is simply not neutral, especially for a BLP, and especially when it outweighs the rest of the article several times over. Many of the sources are simply op-eds. ITAQALLAH 01:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Removing opinions of Naik that you do not wish to be present in the article while retaining content that you like, is a violation of WP:NPOV. - Agnistus (talk) 06:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Agnistus, you should address the concerns raised. Turning the article into a verbose screed about his every thought - with supplementary inline quotes - is itself a violation of WP:NPOV. ITAQALLAH 19:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
  • They're his views, represented by words he spoke. How can this be biased? And how can an article on Naik have an "undue focus on [his] views"? The article is about him and his views? Just because you don't like what he says and writes being out there, doesn't mean it shouldn't be out there. S. Dean Jameson 13:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
    • While there should be space for coverage for his views as related by reliable sources, they should not overwhelm the rest of the article. The mass quotefarming in this respect illustrates my point, and unbalances the presentation. See WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE. Please keep personal speculation of what apparently I like and dislike out of this discussion. Thank you. ITAQALLAH 19:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
      • It's not a quotefarm, it's a documentation of views (well-referenced), that he does, in fact, hold. That you find the inclusion of them objectionable in some way matters not at all. All that matters is that they're reliably sourced and conform with Wikipedia policy. S. Dean Jameson 19:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Mass quoting on an article - as is the case in Agnistus' version - is self-evidently a quotefarm. They don't conform with Wikipedia policy, hence my objection. Op-eds aren't really reliable sources, especially not on a BLP. But let's assume the sources are adequate for the purposes of the discussion. The weight given to the 'documentation' of Naik's views is excessive, and thus exaggerates the importance or significance of this aspect to the subject as a whole. Which is why the issue of WP:UNDUE has been raised, and for some time. ITAQALLAH 19:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have added this page on WP:3, since nobody disagrees.Jeff5102 (talk) 18:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a dispute between only two editors, therefore, it is not suitable for a third opinion under the stated guidelines. Please ask for mediation or another dispute resolution solution. Advocate 12:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Compare and Comment

There is an ongoing dispute among editors as to how this article should be presented. Please compare these two versions of the article and comment on their readablity, informativeness and how well organized they are.

Version (228975985) recommended by user Agnistus versus Version (228786579) recommended by user Elazeez.

Thankyou. - Agnistus (talk) 07:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The content should not be judged by criterion arbitrarily decided by yourself. For judging basic content acceptablity, we primarily use the core content policies: namely WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR. ITAQALLAH 19:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I should also note that Agnistus has solicited the opinion of select editors.[12][13][14] See WP:CANVASS in this regard. ITAQALLAH 21:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I would prefer Agustinus's version. It is much better readable. However, Itaqallah had a point, when he said that the picture of the women in burqa could be misleading. I quess we can find a better picture for that.Jeff5102 (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Who cares if its more readable if it fundamentally violates WP:UNDUE? My contention is that the weight of coverage must be balanced - giving excessive weight to one aspect of the article implies that this area is of greater significance to the subject than is actually the case. When one aspect outweighs the one article several times over, then you know there's a problem with balance. WP:UNDUE makes this quite clear: "Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." That this is a BLP means it is of pressing importance to keep things in balance. ITAQALLAH 19:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I care. It was me who started to talk about sub-sections; without them this article is just a plain mess. My opinion is: before we can judge if the article violates other rules, we need to be able to READ the article.Jeff5102 (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
    • No, it doesn't. We know you think it does, but that doesn't make it true. You asked for a 3O, and he gave it to you. Now we either choose to abide by the 3O (my preference), or we take it further up dispute resolution. S. Dean Jameson 19:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
How can Jeff5102 be the third opinion when he himself posted the request on WP:3O, and is already involved in the dispute? "No, it doesn't. We know you think it does, but that doesn't make it true." - This doesn't actually address the points I raised. ITAQALLAH 19:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
By the way Jeff, 3O is for dispute resolution between two editors. I think RfC is the correct avenue here. ITAQALLAH 19:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I misread the posting. I thought Agnistus posted it. Apologies. The point remains, though, that simply objecting to reliably sourced information isn't enough to remove it. And for the record, there are two distinct opinions here, which makes it a decent candidate for 3O. If one of the groups doesn't like the result, then RfC would be the next step. S. Dean Jameson 19:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Objections should be policy/guideline-based, which I believe mine is. On that basis, and on the basis that WP:BLP applies, I think trimming down the excess is absolutely necessary (which is what I attempted). If the content under dispute is newly inserted then it should be removed until we agree upon how and what to incorporate, as we defer to the previous consensus - wherein we had two concise paragraphs about Naiks views and controversies surrounding him. I don't mind pursuing 3O, but as the opening sentences of that page note, it's for dispute resolution between two editors. ITAQALLAH 19:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Not WP:UNDUE

The proponents for basically chopping this article in half keep (erroneously) citing WP:UNDUE. The text of that link has nothing to do with this article. The quotes and other referenced material they keep removing without consensus directly bears on the subject of this article. He is a Muslim scholar, and these are his beliefs regarding Islam. All that WP:UNDUE requires is that proper weight be given to differing viewpoints in order to satisfy WP:NPOV. Referenced quotes regarding his opinions as a Muslim scholar do not unbalance the article unfairly at all, thus the article in no way violates WP:UNDUE. S. Dean Jameson 19:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Your attribution to WP:UNDUE is incorrect. It says: "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."
Secondly, if you want to talk about consensus, then the material never had consensus when it was inserted in the first place. It needs consensus to remain. ITAQALLAH 19:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
No, it doesn't. It's reliably-sourced, pertinent to the article, and doesn't overemphasize any one aspect of the subject, which is what UNDUE is meant to address. These statements bear directly on his being a Muslim scholar. There's just no undue weight there, no matter how much you try to represent that there is. I'd be interested to read how exactly you feel referencing some views he holds as a Muslim scholar violates undue weight. Be specific please, along with quotes from UNDUE for clarity's sake. S. Dean Jameson 20:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I've quoted to you WP:UNDUE already. It says that UNDUE applies to more than just viewpoints, it applies to weight of coverage- directly contradicting your earlier comment. Excessive focus on one aspect- irrespective of whether it is all factual- is not an appropriate balance. The coverage of his views - merely one aspect of the article - outweighs the rest of the article several times over. This is plain for all to see. ITAQALLAH 20:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
He is a Muslim scholar. As a Muslim scholar, his views as a Muslim scholar SHOULD "outweigh" the other portions of the article. Stop erroneously citing WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP in edit summaries. It doesn't apply here at all. S. Dean Jameson 20:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
To tweak your own words slightly: "Yes, it does. We know you think it doesn't, but that doesn't make it true."
He's not actually a Muslim scholar by qualification, nor does he issue fatwa. So why should one section outweigh the others, and by such an enormously large amount? ITAQALLAH 21:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
That he is not an Islamic scholar seems of no consequence to me. He happens to be a public figure speaking frequently on Islamic topics. We cannot simply ignore that. Str1977 (talk) 20:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting we ignore it. There is of course room for discussion of his views, but the volume of content for it should be balanced and in proportion, as opposed to outweighing the rest of the article by some distance. ITAQALLAH 00:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable.Bless sins (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
A comparable situation is to list all of Pipes' views on the article Daniel Pipes. That would be ridiculous. Infact, only Pipes views that are ntoed by other third-party media sources should be on his article.Bless sins (talk) 02:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. The only views of Zakir Naik included in the article are those "noted by other third-party media sources". - Agnistus (talk) 11:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
But in a conservative manner, with regard to balance and without excess, especially when most of the sources seem to be op-eds and hence not of high quality. Swathes of quotefarms and coatracking are not the order of the day. ITAQALLAH 19:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Errors needing rectification in this version

While there is still no consensus on to keep or do away with the content(and while some of us are pushing to keep it until we arrive at a consensus), there is need to atleast get some things right in it (remember, while we are engaged in our editorial discussions, the world is still reading the articles on WP as a source of encyclopaedic information). In the recent version (by Agnistus) there are too many blatant issues needing rectification, and yet it amazes one that no one has cared to correct even some of them before dutifully reverting any new revesion to that one. For instance, the first line contains Arabic text that simply reads Zakir Naik next to its english counterpart reading Zakir Abdul Karim Naik; each time it has been corrected, Agnistus or someone else has simply reverted the complete revision. The next two paras seem as if they were written in a hurry (missing conjunctions?), in order to get to started with the Lectures and Visits' section. The so-called 'Lectures and visits' section (which Agnistus has been very generous in spliting up into sub-sections) has silly looking sub-section headings, all starting with 'Lectures and Visits regarding...' except the last one (Is this an article about Naik or about his Lectures and Visits?) From the article, it seems only a fraction of his lectures and visits have been reported in Op-eds, and Op-eds are what this encyclopaedic article has seemingly used as its primary source of information. Besides, all text in the version lacks what WP:RS demands, When citing opinion pieces from newspapers or other mainstream news sources, in-text attribution should be given. (emphasis mine); once in-text attributions are given, the article would be totally outweighed by content copy-pasted directly. WP:UNDUE, thus still holds ground.'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

And YES, the image of two burqa-clad Afghan women is essentially mis-leading. Because 1) It is only a picture of two Afghan-Women (wearing the kind of Burqa fashioned mostly in Afghanistan) 2) There is no evidence to show that this kind of Burqa is the one Naik endorses (Naik has endorsed the 'Hijaab' and not the Burqa, which is a kind of Hijaab) (WP:Original research?) and 4) The image is not even the actual hijaab which is prescribed in Islam for women (the one which says everything should be covered except the palm of the hands and the face) 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Another one, whoever inserted the text Naik went on to say "Jihad is not what the media has portrayed it as - it is not a holy war. There is no such thing as holy war in Islam. Jihad is an oxymoron term used by the international media to describe certain people." citing [15] as the reference, seems to have not read the op-ed even once because the text in the cited source actually contains this text: Egypitian-born Canadian academic Professor Badawi said the message of Islam was peace. He said: "Jihad is not what the media has portrayed it as - it is not a holy war. There is no such thing as holy war in Islam. Jihad is an oxymoron term used by the international media to describe certain people. (so it was JAMAL BADAWI who said it, not Naik). 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
So it seems that not only is the content being defended clearly excessive in weight and sourced to op-eds, it also contains outright misinformation. And, as has been noted for the nth time, it enjoyed no consensus in the first place - so there is certainly no need for consensus to restore the previous version (which did enjoy consensus). I'd suggest the proponents of this mass of unencyclopedic material scrutinise it more closely before defending it as adamantly as they are. ITAQALLAH 18:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Pointing out mistakes is much more promising an undertaking than the supposed undue weighz. Right now, I can't see any reason for it. However, one can always address an issue more concisely (but never at the expense of accuracy, so please no "lecture on Islam" again). Str1977 (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Rectifying mistakes might have been a good idea Str1977 had it been just a few. You see, examples like quoting Jamal Badawi's words as being that of Naik's, only serve to hint a bit at the amount of mis-accurary the 'proposed' article might contain. I recommend we keep the current version which has had no disputes and build upon it again. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
No, mistakes always must be rectified, even if you think that the entire thing should be reduced. And maybe, by removing the mistakes, the imbalance is already removed. Str1977 (talk) 14:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Thankyou for rectifying the Jamal Badawi error, Abdel. But I must say your statement "quoting Jamal Badawi's words as being that of Naik's, only serve to hint a bit at the amount of mis-accurary the 'proposed' article might contain" is a gross exaggeration. One stray error should not be used as a black sheep to paint all the other sources as similarly erroneous. However, such edits are far more productive than the vandalistic content removal practiced by Itaq. (It seems he wasn't aware of this error until you discovered it, and it shows how recklessly Itaq deletes content without even caring to look once at the sources). - Agnistus (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Quote from above However, such edits are far more productive than the vandalistic content removal practiced by Itaq. (It seems he wasn't aware of this error until you discovered it, and it shows how recklessly Itaq deletes content without even caring to look once at the sources), umm... I was hinting quite contrary to that, i.e. inclusion of content without looking at the sources. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 12:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing others' comments

Resolved
Comments moved to archive in lieu of straight removal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There was nothing at this discussion that gave you the right to remove the comments of other people. If you continue to do so, I'm quite certain you will be blocked. S. Dean Jameson 01:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

See WP:TPG, which is quite clear on the issue - and does certainly allow for the removal of irrelevant discussions not related to improving the article. I don't see any basis upon which you can even begin to consider threatening blocks. ITAQALLAH 01:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not threatening a block. I'm not an administrator. I'm warning you that removing others' comments is blockable. Please stop doing it. If you remove them again, I'll have to report you to ANI. I have recused myself from the underlying content dispute, but removing others' comments is not acceptable at all. 02:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
If others' comments consist solely of irrelevant religious debate, posted on this talk page even without the consent of one of the involved parties (and, in fact, his explicit disapproval, and I quote from above: "PLEASE NOTE THAT AGNISTUS HAS COPIED THE GREEN TEXT BELOW FROM MY TALK PAGE DESPITE MY (TWICE) EXPRESSED DISAPPROVAL TO SPAMMING THIS ZAKIR NAIK'S TALK PAGE WITH IRRELEVANT INFORMATION."), then removing them is completely acceptable, as clearly noted in WP:TPG. Hence, it's not a blockable offence, nor will it ever be. Indeed, it is standard practice to remove off-topic soapboxing. I would insist you take it to AN/I if you feel as strongly as I do about this. ITAQALLAH 02:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
If you remove the valid comments (Agnistus moved it here from his talk when it spilled over there) regarding religion (which the article dispute is about), this will be brought up on ANI. Is it really worth removing the comments? S. Dean Jameson 02:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, because they aren't "valid" comments - they do not pertain to improving this article at all. It's an irrelevant religious debate between Elazeez and Agnistus - a classic case of WP:SOAP - and has nothing to do with the article content dispute which is about undue weight. I suggest you bring it up on AN/I anyway instead of waiting for me to revert again, then it can be properly settled. Taking this issue to AN/I was, after all, what I had done several days ago. ITAQALLAH 02:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I'm not sure that ANI is the best forum for that to be discussed (unless you revert again, of course). Perhaps (as the comments aren't truly harming anyone, nor are they a violation of BLP in any way) you should just leave them, let them be archived after a while, and be done with it. There's really no pressing need for you to remove those comments at all. S. Dean Jameson 03:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
The only 'pressing need' for deleting those comments (which are NOT 'valid' BTW and they are solely advocating POVs which have no relevance to the article) is that they serve as red-herrings (just look at all those colors) for the ongoing content-dispute we have at hand here. They didn't quite 'spill over' on Agnistus' talk page either, they were on mine. Since they do not serve even a bit towards bringing out any of finer (or otherwise) points in (any of) the disputes over Zakir Naik's article, I feel they deserve no piece of real-estate here. The only thing they are 'harming' is the article and the debate over inclusion of some content, which —I feel— is quite a lot of damage as far as how WP is supposed to work. I personally don't see any need for the discussion to remain un-deleted since it is not contributing contructively to the article at hand at all in any way. Besides, there cannot ever be a block for reverting this kind of soap-boxing from the talk-page. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 10:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
And there's really no pressing need for you to restore that soapboxing at all, which is being removed as per Wikipedia guidelines. ITAQALLAH 16:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not always easy to distinguish between valid discussion and soap boxing and it is better to err on the side of inclusion. However, when whole discussions are copied over from user talk pages or from other article talk pages, soap boxing at least is a valid assumption. However, this case is pretty harmless in comparison to other things I have seen. And in the end, I see no need to copy Christianity bashing over from someone's talk page. Str1977 (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of principle as well. It's accepted community practice to remove off-topic comments, and is enshrined in WP:TPG. While it's one thing allowing an odd stray comment to pass, it's another thing inserting a mass of text on a talk page of a BLP which has nothing to do with the subject (Naik), and has nothing to do with improving the article. If S Dean Jameson feels confirmation is needed over at AN/I, so be it. But I intend to continue removing irrelevant, counter-productive soapboxing - even if it is bizzarely defended without basis in either policies or guidelines. ITAQALLAH 16:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I've added the comments to the talkpage archive, as a compromise. No one was editing that section anymore, so that should be acceptable. Any problem with that, Itaq? S. Dean Jameson 17:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll accept that in the interests of bringing closure to this dispute. ITAQALLAH 17:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

S. Dean Jameson 18:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Work it out

If the users involved here can't work out the issues, I'll full protect the article and also block people for disruption, edit warring, etc. This is a WP:BLP so keep that in mind as well as WP:POINT; WP:RS,WP:CIVIL, WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, WP:V, or WP:OR. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Care to wade into the "nuts and bolts" of the main article? Or the issue of removing non-vandalistic comments from the talkpage? I've recused myself from the former, and am close to doing so with the latter. And from the comment below, it sounds like Agnistus is pretty discouraged as well. S. Dean Jameson 12:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Agnistus Quits

For the record, I user Agnistus am completely quitting Wikipedia by the end of this week (August 10th) has completely quit Wikipedia.

I leave it to other editors the inclusion of the reliably sourced content (which is being constantly removed).

Good Luck and Good Bye. - Agnistus (talk) 12:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to stay after being harassed by people like Itaqallah for close to half an year (since March 19). Anyway, thanks for the kind words. - Agnistus (talk) 11:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

My Final Correct Version

This Correct Version of the article contains all the material sourced to reliable 3rd-party sources (which is being constantly removed). Images ans sub-sections are not present in this version. If the content removal continues (which I expect, invariably will) then may this version serve as checkpoint for editors to compare with. - Agnistus (talk) 10:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rectified Version

I have replaced the image of the Afgan burqa with one of a traditional headcover, owing to the uncertainty as to whether he supports the Afgan-style hijab. - Agnistus (talk) 12:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think such images are of tangential relevance really. More images of direct relevance to Naik are preferable, like a conference where he gave a speech or something. ITAQALLAH 19:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Such an image has been used in the infobox. And images shown elsewhere in the article should be in relevence to the content. - Agnistus (talk) 09:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for Comments

Lectures and thoughts

This section mostly contains polemics against Naik. I'm wondering why there is no critisicm section, where they are categorised appropriately Suigeneris (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I divided the section into 'Opinions' and 'Criticisms and Controversies'. Hope this is fine Suigeneris (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Criticism sections are generally not recommended, especially on BLPs. Any relevant critique should be worked into the article. You're right, though, the section does contain mostly anti-Naik polemic, and I have attempted to reduce the more tangential aspects of this so that it's more concise. What Naik thinks about beards/mustaches, the Pope, or Christmas is largely irrelevant and not of encyclopedic nature. Neither are blatant guilt by association claims. I think Praveen Swami's claim about Naik and some violent groups which share some of his views is also probably unnecessary - it is implicitly defamatory and a non-sequitur. ITAQALLAH 22:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a Wiki policy that Criticism is undesirable for a biography as you mentioned in one of your edit summary? If there are polemics against him, they should be mentioned under an appropriate section, instead of concealing them under Lectures section. I would seriously consider adding a Criticism section which would contain polemics extracted from the Lectures section, and also new ones if references exist Suigeneris (talk) 11:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
See WP:CRITICISM, WP:STRUCTURE and {{criticism-section}}. Also see WP:BLP about criticism in general on such articles. ITAQALLAH 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
WP:CRITICISM says that some editors don't like criticism section, but there is no consensus on this. Also, WP:BLP never says that criticism is discouraged. In fact WP:CRITICISM merely hints that criticism section should be more thought of as this may result in a bio full of back and forth arguments, thus compromising the overall quality of the article - not that the bio. of a living person should be devoid of a criticism section. Suigeneris (talk) 20:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
It says that Criticism sections generally violate WP:NPOV#Article structure - which they do. WP:BLP mentions this - that special care should be given to issues of criticism/praise, especially with respect to article structure. We can mention criticism alongside praise and other appraisals without the need to section it according to what POV it represents. ITAQALLAH 22:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)Dr. Naik has come up with severe criticisms from Ex-muslims like Dr. Ali Sina. Ali Sina had offered to debate with Dr. Naik several times, but Dr.Naik has shown no interest. In his website, Faithfreedom, Dr. Ali Sina has proven all the claims by Dr. Naik in his public talks (Dawah)as wrong and deceiving. He also cosidered that Dr. Zakir Naik was a great showman, who with his wit and body language skills would easily go around the world fooling people.

9/11 comments

Zencv has reverted Naik's comments on 9/11. Some questions

  • you reverted my edits wholesale. Do you object to all of them or just the test on 9/11
  • your edit summary says "The whole 9/11 section is provided with wrong sources. Also usage of claiming and what he says etc. are to be avoided."
    • could you be more specific about what is wrong with the source http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD204708 ? I also added the times of india about 9/11 denial which may be considered Original Research but I thought it would be OK as long as it had the secondary source too.
    • What is wrong with claiming and what he says and what do you suggest instead of them?

--BoogaLouie (talk) 20:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

you reverted my edits wholesale. Do you object to all of them or just the test on 9/11
No, but I had objections to the most important parts you had added, ie, 9/11. As the allegation is quite serious, I was wondering why the source Times of India never says anything about Naik and source memri.org provides a link to the video which does not work. OK, source memri.org also has texts based on what they claim to be Naik's speech. Even though this source claims to be non partisan, I really doubt it as it looks more like a pro US/Israeli website. My reversion was based on Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material and Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources giving Naik the benefit of doubt as this information is rather libelous.
Nevertheless, I would very much support having his comments on 9/11 to be included in the article, with more stronger sources. I would have added it just under Lectures section as this single comment doesn't have to take one fifth of the whole article.
What is wrong with claiming and what he says and what do you suggest instead of them?
this was based on Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid which clearly asks to avoid these terms. See Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Claim. It almost always brings bias, hinting that subject is not trustworthy. On the other hand his arguments are just his opinions(which I personally think are sometimes ridiculous), so argues is more of a compromise IMO Zencv Lets discuss 22:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1846.htm try this link without the period at the end. It worked for me --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The last thing needed is more controversy-based 'expansion' on a BLP (see WP:COATRACK). If the comments are truly significant, then third party independent reliable commentary regarding it is required. I don't believe MEMRI is reliable enough as a source here. ITAQALLAH 14:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have added back the basic sentence. IMO, this single incidence need not take more than (lets say)10% of the whole article, but nevertheless it is worth mentioning. If there is a video where he is shown in full flesh making these statements, then I have no problem where this video was linked Zencv Lets discuss 21:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I've no problem with a sentence or so on the topic so long as it's significance is demonstrated by independent reliable sources. I've removed the tendentious material inserted (I think) by ISKapoor which contained excessive view-spam and quotefarming and was extensively debated previously. If Naik talks about events totally unrelated to him, good for him, but the article isn't a coatrack for expounding upon every view he's held, and doesn't really warrant inclusion unless it's truly noteworthy, as determined by discussion of the issue in multiple reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 14:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Those who claim MEMRI is a reliable source, nevertheless admit that it is a translation service. This has nothing to do with notability. (Note MEMRI's notability itself is not in question). Notability for that statement needs to be justified using indenpendent reliable sources.Bless sins (talk) 23:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I got a problem with the sentence: "To back his words on anti-Islam campaigns he quoted a report published in the Time Magazine which said that about 60,000 books against Islam have been written over the past 150 years alone." If you follow the provided source, ([16]), you see Naik indeed said that. However if you see the Time Magazine Article (of Monday, Apr. 16, 1979) it reads:"As writing about Islam and the Orient burgeoned—60,000 books between 1800 and 1950—European powers occupied large swatches of "Islamic" territory..."[17].
So 1) those books were about Islam AND the Orient, 2) Those books were not neccessarily AGAINST Islam, and 3) It is about the period of 1800-1950; that is not what can be called "the past 150 years". Is there a way we can justify these points in the article, without violating the WP:OR rule?Jeff5102 (talk) 21:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The uniqe point Dr. Zakir Naik's lectures & debates is that he always gives reference of what he says. He always base his judgement on written proof. To say that, he said in his lectures that 9/11 was an inside job by US will devilish. What he really said was that those were the different conspiracy theories of 9/11. And clearly mentions that he was not saying that but certain section of Americans came up with those theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.237.38 (talk) 10:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC) At a Public Lecture in Australia, Dr. Naik said that if Osama Bin Laden was fighting a terrorist, the United States, which he considers as the biggest terrorist nation, then he would back Osama Bin Laden." He further went on to say that Every Muslim should be a terrorist for a terrorist, and should do no harm to the innocent. This statement was criticised by many, who felt that Dr. Naik was misguiding the muslim youth.

Pope Benedict

This incident is notable IMO. The section where it is included is not restricted only to debates that were held. If he had challenged an unknown person, one could have questioned the notability, but in this case, he was the only scholar in my knowledge who had openly challenged Pope and it is well sourced..Whether the debate was held or not is immaterial, as what is mentioned in the sentence is the challenge itself Zencv Lets discuss 14:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not see the relevance. I could invite the Pope for a debate as well, but this doesn't make me 'notable'. Furthermore, there is plenty of well-sourced information deleted from the article, so that couldn't be an argument. Also, the previous Pope had meetings with representants of other religions (including from the Islam), and those meetings DID happen. Jeff5102 (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You arguments have some basic logical fallacies. You or I could invite Pope for a debate, but then this would be notable under our respective BLPs if we ever get to have one. In this case, Naik himself is a well known person and he has invited Pope for a debate. If he had kept his intentions in his mind, then it wouldnt have been notable, but he had rather made it public and this became a news, so it is notable. I have difficulty to understand your argument, as why something has to happen to be mentionable. As for removing other sourced materials, there must have been a good reason for that. You should have challenged that instead of removing some other sentence. Zencv Lets discuss 18:04, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I DID challenge those removals. Just take a better look on the talk-page. However, there is was no 'consensus' (in other words, if only two or three people were debating at that time) to support my points. Thus, just conform myself to the strict demands that this Wikipedia-article demands: leave everything out that is not 'notable'. If you look at some old versions like[18]and [19], you see tat al lot information is deleted. For example, Naiks (documented) views are deleted. Also deleted are some debates, attended by Naik, like the 2000 Chicago ICNA Conference, and his debate with Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. Those were news items as well, but still no sign of them in the current article. I do not mind that. If that is how Wikipedia works, it just has to be. However, I stil do not understand why a (sourced) debate (with notable people) that is NOT held is more notable than (sourced) debates (with notable people) that DID happen. Could you explain that to me, please?Jeff5102 (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Now I understand you better I guess. What is notable may be subjective sometimes and this can result in differences. In general, WP:BLP demands exceptional care in writing something negative against a living person and this is abundantly used by fans to thwart any criticism. This article risks being a coatrack. See Wikipedia:Coatrack#The_Criticism_Gambit specifically. I don't have any problems to have his held debates to be included such as the ones with Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, so long as it is well sourced, and so long as we don't pile up the article with tons of incongruent negative opinions about the subject(Naik) from every little corner. I really like the one from Khushwant Singh as it is very much in rhythm with the section. Zencv Lets discuss 22:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Is the implication here that the rhythm of the section is distinctly negative? Because that's the tone of Singh's comments. I agree the article should not become a hoard of negative opinions from every conceivable source, which is why I have tried to keep source elaboration minimal if we are to utilise multiple sources. There should also be some degree of balance re: more positive appraisals of Naik but I think the section currently veers too much on the negative aspect. ITAQALLAH 20:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I also wanted to mention that I don't mind a short sentence about Naik's invitation to the Pope so long a reliable independent source has covered it. Naik's involvement in the debate however is such that it probably doesn't warrant a paragraph of discussion. ITAQALLAH 20:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Pope Benedikt issue is mentioned using only one sentence and I think it is quite OK(ie, no overimportance). Having said that I vote for including 9/11 comments(though I agree that Memri TV is anything but neureal) Zencv Lets discuss 22:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Memri's translation is one thing. Menri's posting a video of someone speaking in English is another. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Merely posting a video makes it a primary source, like youtube. There is no third party discussion about Naik's view, in what way it's significant or the impact of his comments, or anything of that sort. It's just a video clip from a Naik lecture (=primary source). Simply because MEMRI picks out a selection of video media to put on its website doesn't make it instantly noteworthy in this article, especially as it's a BLP. ITAQALLAH 00:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear friends, coming back to the Zakir Naik article after some time, I find that the result, after months and months of discussions and work, is not bad at all. I would never have hoped for such a good, balanced result.

In my view, however, it would be important to include something about Naik's views on 9/11, simply because of the huge impact of the subject.

Apart from that, the article looks quite OK.

Congrats to everyone involved (including myself, of course).Giordaano (talk) 11:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree and have added something about Naik's views on 9/11. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Debate with SSRS

It is not mentioned in the article that Zakir Naik had a debate with Sri Sri Ravi Shankar during 2006 in Mumbai. Please add this information. Thank you. Salaam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.182.34 (talk) 10:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Islam Template

Being one of the greatest living muslim leaders Dr Naik should have islam template on his page. I have placed it. But the problem is that unlike other templates I have come across this one is vertical not horizontal, so page does'nt look too neat. Can some one please make it horizontal...? or tell me how to do it on my talkpage. Thanks  Jon Ascton  (talk) 06:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I edited it in in a neat way; this will do.Jeff5102 (talk) 08:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Please, do not start adding to the page a random selction of Naik's views on any possible subject. We've been through that in the past, and we shouldn't repeat it.

Also, Naik's name is Zakir Naik, not "Dr. Zakir Naik". It's not usual in wikipedia to systematically mention academic titles when speaking of a person. In particular, Naik is not famous as a physician, but as a preacher and religious activist.Giordaano (talk) 10:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV tag

Why the article is tagged NPOV? I do not see any significant bias in the way it is written now, though there are some quality issues. I would vote for removing it Zencv Lets discuss 20:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The article had been severely tampered with, by introducing e.g. weasel-wording ("well-known scholar", " huge audiences" etc) while critical, well-sourced remarks from secondary sources (Khushwant Singh) had been removed, and the incident with Shias had also been removed.

Once again : the point is not to reproduce an anthology of what Naik has said in his many conferences and books, but an overview of what serious sources have said about him.

And, stop all this "Dr Zakir Naik" stuff. Naik is not notable as a physician, but as a preacher.

Should we systematically use, e.g., "Dr Siegmund Freud" when quoting his name on his article ?

People are simply (and naively) trying to impress, by quoting Dr, Dr, Dr all the time...Giordaano (talk) 00:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The debate between Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. William Cambell was not held in 2005.

Under the heading [ Lectures, Debates and Controversies] it is written that Dr. Zakir Naik debated Dr. William Cambell in Dec 2005 which I believe is false. I remember listening to the debate way back in 2001. So it is impossible for such debate to take place in 2005 four years after. Furthermore, I checked the reference provided and it only says that the debate was shown on Tv in 2005 which doesn't mean it took place in that year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rizvir (talk • contribs) 07:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

masturbation

is masturbation a sin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.203.192.233 (talk) 09:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

idea for new section

asselamualykum what about online fetwa(giving answer) for thous who need to ask and get answer online. maselame —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.76.19 (talk) 07:28, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

thomas blom hansen not a sociologist

I think we need to change the nomer 'sociologist' which is used to denote thomas blom hansen. He has lectured at the University of Amsterdam, where I studied, and is def. an anthropologist, not a sociologist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.6.93 (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

bloated content

the point is not only whether a quote is sourced or unsourced. The point is also whether the quotes of Naik's wrtings, the excerpts from his debates, are somehow relevant and should be included in the article.

It would be easy to expand this page to ten times its present size, or more, simply by quoting from Naik's writings... but, is it constructive ? is this how an encyclopedia page should be structured ?

There had been a consensus to keep this page limited to what reliable secondary sources on Naik have to say.

This, apparently, is not accepted anymore by recent posters.

As to the celebrated "golden plaque" presented by Deedat, the information is reproduced on many blogs etc, but I have never seen this reported by a reliable source.Giordaano (talk) 11:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I think this article is bloated with statements like "According to Dr. Naik" or "in response, Dr. Naik says". Especially in the criticism section, statements critical of Dr. Naik should be left alone, as there are umpteen articles apologizing for him. --Gnana (talk) 07:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

hey

Please make this page a protected one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faizanfasieh (talk • contribs) 02:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

non-npov and potentially defamatory material

This article still requires work to make it acceptable in terms of the encyclopedia's policy regarding neutrality, reliable sourcing and tone. The edit warring and addition of defamatory material must stop immediately. thank you Deconstructhis (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with Awliya's page.

How dare you Ari identify my revert to Awliya's page as vandalism? His article contained absolutely no POVs as you keep suggesting. What proof, if any do you have to support your claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deenfitrah (talk • contribs) 16:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Deenfitrah (talk) 16:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Really, Awliya's sockpuppet has nothing wrong with Awliya's edits? --Ari (talk) 00:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, you're all over the Islamic pages Ari89. You're not letting anyone edit them without your 'blessing'. Conspiracy? I don't think so.

JohnnPhilip (talk) 16:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Naik is best known for carrying out Daw'ah in the form of debates with other religious figures around the world. This gives undue weight to the subject and is a major POV. WHO says he is best known for this? SpigotWho? 17:33, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The main problem I have on the edits by Awliya is, that he insists in calling Sushi Das an 'amateur journalist.' This is blatantly false. Even when I provided the link that she is a "senior writer and columnist", Awliya still reverted it into an "amateur". That causes some suspicions on Awliya's sincerity, at least.
Furthermore, it is strange that the well-known Thomas Blom Hansen has written something on Naiks style, while Awliya preferred to write that Thomas Blom Hansen has commented somenthing on Naiks style. That is somewhat POV-pushing.
Finally, in the old version, it was said that Naiks debates were distributed in video and DVD media as well as online. Now, these products were distributed in video and DVD media among the youth and elderly. However, the internet serves as his main outlet. I would prefer the earlier, compact version.
Some edits are less problematic than others, and I need to check some parts out, but these are my problems so far.Jeff5102 (talk) 21:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

++No I checked the link you provided and it did not clearly state she was a senior columnist. If you ever provide a link again I would recommend that you make sure that the information provided is accurate and is actually stated within the online document.

++Rest assured, I admit my mistake and I am going to fix that right away. The only reason I used the word 'amateur' in lieu of 'senior' was because I did not find any reports of her being a senior columnist. I googled her credentials and you stand corrected.

++You seem to not understand the definition of POV. If it would make you happy I am ready to write that he 'commented in his writings'. I am a Muslim and I do not see why anyone would take "Thomas Blom Hansen's" work as fact. It's a COMMENT and not a FACT. Western bigotry in this respect will not prevail even when Thomas's statement is a positive and not a normative one.

++The earlier compact version is not accurate. Video cassettes are rarely distributed among Muslims, if not at all. The internet, is in fact, the most frequently used outlet for Zakir Naik's videos. 

Awliya (talk) 09:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S. If you disagree with me, please make sure to drop by my Talk Page and make any suggestions you see fit. I am going to agree with you -- I have made some slight oversights in my editing. Thank you for pointing them out!

Okay SpigotMap, you just said WHO says Zakir Naik is best known for this? I can see you lack knowledge about this famous Muslim orator. Before every speech, therefore it's not necessary to cite, a small spiel is always given on Naik's prowess in debate and Islamic oration. Make sure you visit youtube and to watch his videos. I beg to differ when you say it gives 'undue weight' to the subject and is a major POV. Do you understand what a NORMATIVE STATEMENT is? Naik is indeed BEST known for carrying out dawah in the form of debates. Let me ask you something, what do YOU THINK he is best known for?

Alphabetagammerparticle (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Sockpuppet comments have been marked appropriately. --Ari (talk) 11
03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


Article Neutrality, POVs, and RS Dispute

Saju Wiki, stop adding the excessively POV content. We only have to say it once that Naik is going to contest the ban. We do not need three multiple paragraph chunks of you defending him defending himself. This is not a platform for Zakir Naik, it is an Encyclopedia article. This article is not going to be turned into a personal defence for Naik at every corner. --Ari (talk) 04:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:Ari89, in the same breathe this isn't going to be an article which weaves a negative perception of Naik. I don't completely agree with Saju Wiki's references, but you failed to list his POVs or non RS. --Dhulfiqar 06:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

Spine.Cleaver, you just restored edits (again) that do not have consensus. Wikipedia is about obtaining consensus. You have once again tried to undermine the foundations of Wikipedia. You (or Saju wiki) must not restore content that has been objected to by other editors - you must take it to the talk page and get consensus. So far, you or Saju have not addressed the objections. You do not have consensus, and your edit warring will be reported if you refuse to justify these edits. --Ari (talk) 06:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:You seem to be a proponent of the previous version. Does that have any consensus, and if so why are not other editors aside from yourself defending the article's veracity? I have not tried to undermine the foundations of Wikipedia, rather you have been elusive and failed to address my questions that I posed to you over a week ago. I have brought this to the attention of an administrator. If you cannot discuss your objects to other person's edits then please refrain from reverting without a reasonable justification. I don't have to justify the edits Saju Wiki made. If you think I'm under scrutiny, you're wrong. Discuss your objections, Saju has done his part though I don't agree with all of his edits fully. --Dhulfiqar 06:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

When an edit is made, other editors have these options: accept the edit, change the edit, or revert the edit. These options may be discussed if necessary.
Yes, it does have consensus. It was a stable article. Yesterday without discussion Saju wiki added a mass amount of content. This bold edit was objected to - meaning it did not have consensus. No effort has been made to justify the edit on the talk page, yet you again restored it. See the chart for a pictorial description of the process. So yes, you have to justify the inclusion of this material. --Ari (talk) 07:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:Consensus according to who? You seem to be the only one arguing that it was a stable article. I've seen the article's history and it seems to me that you doubt the article's literary integrity every time someone else makes an edit, except for you and a few others. If you're going to debate the veracity of the articles' references, its POVs, and neutrality I suggest you discuss it with the rest of the editors here until we find a solution. I will tell you again, I do not agree with all of Saju's edits. I'm going to try to see what I can do to make it better as per Wikipedia standards. You're free to join me. But as far as neutrality is concerned I am with Saju. --Dhulfiqar 07:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

By definition, the article had consensus until Saju wiki and your restoring of that content. That content did not have consensus as it was immediately objected to. Edit warring to force your edits in when they have been objected to is not consensus building. Look at the diagram and the policies. They exist no matter what your opinion of the matter is. --Ari (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:Yes, if you go by consensus according to you - I agree. The flow diagram is an apt illustration of how to reach a comprise when edits are made. You made no comprise on your part, nor did you negotiate on how to fix the edits. You just brushed all of Saju's edits to be contentious and violated 3RR on the basis of consensus. You have been reported to an administrator for violating the the edit war rule. This is not based on my opinions but on Wikipedian standards. --Dhulfiqar 07:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

You and I both know I didn't breach 3RR so don't bother trying to bring that into this. We are trying to talk about the article. I haven't brushed of Saju's edits, I have incorporated them appropriately and appropriately isn't more than a few lines. All the objections Saju raised have been addressed. The article states that Naik is planning to appeal the decision, the article states that Naik believes he was misquoted. We do not need to repeat these same thing three separate times in six or so paragraphs. This is a biography of Zakir Naik, not where you, me or Zakir Naik forcefully advocate a position. --Ari (talk) 07:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Once again, please look at Saju's edits. Why do you continue to see positive edits to be a violation of the article's neutrality? We can all judge that the article's neutrality is largely disputed. Who are you to judge whether a few lines are appropriate? Let there be a consensus among all the editors who are in dispute over Naik's article. Yes, that is correct YOUR version states that Naik is planning to appeal the decision, but not on what basis which might be of interest to avid readers. If you're going to state that Naik advocates apostasy, then the reader needs to know the context. If you're going to state why Naik was banned, the reader needs to know the context, which can be readily seen in your version of the article. Please try to be more diplomatic. --Dhulfiqar 07:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

Furthermore, removal of my warning and my discussion on your user and talk page have been reported to an Admin. --Dhulfiqar 07:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

You are not addressing anything I am saying so I find it hard to find the effort to bother. But do remember that there is no such thing as my version. There was a consensus version - if you have problems with it, we fix them. Instead of fixing them, a massive bold edit caused numerous problems and this was objected to. Now we compromise, not revert. Your statements are also incorrect. The article does state what reasons he is appealing the decision - he believes he was misquoted. If the reader wants to know more, they look up the references. We are not going to dedicate the article to "A Defence of Zakir Naik". --Ari (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, removal of my warning and my discussion on your user and talk page have been reported to an Admin. --Dhulfiqar 07:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

You know admins aren't there for all your personal vendettas, right? You vandalised my user page and talk page so I do not know what you think you are going to achieve. --Ari (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

:Please don't accuse me of initiating a vendetta. Answer my question: How did I vandalize your page? --Dhulfiqar 07:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

User:Spine.Cleaver above has been indefinitely blocked for being the 6th or so confirmed sockpuppet for the user(s) here originally starting as Awliya.

Ari, basically the bottom line is you don't have consenses for the edits you've made or Jeff has made on this article. I followed the process of opening a discussion for just this particular subject, please go through the previous section. I have posted some questions for you and jeff, no one really gave answers for them, I added my edits without any choice, so as to make this article neutral. Please give your reasons for completely removing my edits before you remove them, or give reasons in the previous section, Let us take this discussion to the previous section. BTW I did not remove any of your reference, if you please look carefully that was a dangling reference it was throwing an error, scroll down in the edit mode all the way to the reference source you'll see it. Thankx ! Saju wiki (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Awliya/Deenfitrah/Spine.Cleaver/Wellwisher/JohnnPhilip/whatever sockpuppet you like best, play nice or this account will be blocked as well. You haven't been fooling anyone with your multiple sockpuppets but I will let that slide if you actually start contributing fairly and in accord with WP policy. We have been through this before - you want to turn this page into a fansite for Zakir Naik, etc but that is not what the purpose of a biography of a living person is. --Ari (talk) 00:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Ari, why are you still avoiding my questions ? Please reply to them in the section above, and give your reasons. The edits that you are trying to remove were making this article neutral. If you still continue to avoid them, I might have to report this. I have already hinted the admins about it.Saju wiki (talk) 01:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of facts on Dr. Naik's page

On Dr. Naik's page it is written that he follows Sunni Islam, which is not true. The whole world knows about it.

The entire teachings of Dr. Naik on TV, in gatherings and in his writings clearly establish the fact that he follows Salafi Islam. Therefore, it is important that this fact is recognized and appreciated by everyone, including Dr. Naik himself. If "Dr. Naik prefers to write his faith as "Sunni Islam", this is misrepresentation of facts. He is supposed to be an Islamic scholar, therefore, truth should reflect from his page. When he is a scholar of Salafi Islam, how come it is said that he is Sunni. This will be far from the truth and not as per the established rules of Wikipedia.

The whole life of Dr. Naik is spent in believing and preaching Salafi Islam. Every lecture, every CD you find will show his beliefs very clearly. In such a situation, it is important that his believes are clearly written on his page. If you do not do it, it will be injustice to Dr. Naik, injustice to Wikipedia and misrepresentation of facts for the world.

Therefore, it is important that "Sunni Islam" should be replaced from "Salafi Islam" on his page.

Removing reliably referenced material without explanation

I've taken a look at the changes in the article over just the past couple of days and took note of two occurrences of what appears to be reliably sourced information removed with their accompanying references. Please do not remove properly sourced material from the article without discussing it on the articles talk page first. It's quite common for statements to conflict in any properly put together article, that doesn't mean that we simply throw away the one's we happen to disagree with; it means the article has to be rewritten to explain the discrepancies. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 19:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC) §

Disruptive edits

Your edits have been objected to by multiple editors. See wp:consensus on how we form consensus. As it stands, your contentious edits violate various policies, especially not maintaining to a neutral point of view (wp:npov) and being unsourced (wp:verifiability).

Some clear examples in the edit war version that has been objected to:

  • Journalist Sushi Das is now known as a "amateur writer and columnist" yet her profile in a leading mainstream national newspaper introduces her as "senior writer and columnist"[20]
  • The lead know contains "prolific" with a citation from a fan site of Zakir Naik. This is not a reliable source nor is there any reason to include weasel words in the lead.
  • Why are you removing the criticisms by Khushwant Singh?
  • Why is polemical commentary being added? E.g. "Near the end of the debate a weary Dr. Campbell said, "Well, Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems," admitting to the presence of scientific inaccuracies in the Bible"

Wikipedia's biographies of living people are not fansites or apologetics for authors. --Ari (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


These issues have been resolved, while maintaining proper organization of headings and subheadings. If not, please don't hesitate to contact me Ari.

The Well Wisher (talk) 09:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC) The Well Wisher (talk) 09:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

You addressed none of the issues and simply restored your Awliya's contentious edits. Jeff5102 was correct right in reporting you as another sockpuppet. --Ari (talk) 11:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel before you should have reverted back to the original version you should have checked with me personally. However, since I have the Merged version saved, I will show you that those issues had been resolved:

Problem #1:

  • Journalist Sushi Das is now known as a "amateur writer and columnist" yet her profile in a leading mainstream national newspaper introduces her as "senior writer and columnist"

Fix #1:

In 2004, Naik visited New Zealand[25] and then the Australian capital at the invitation of Islamic Information and Services Network of Australasia. At his conference in Melbourne, senior writer and columnist... ::This is indeed a fix and not a contentious reversion to Awliyas version.

Problem #2:

  • The lead know contains "prolific" with a citation from a fan site of Zakir Naik. This is not a reliable source nor is there any reason to include weasel words in the lead.

Fix #2:

Zakir Abdul Karim Naik (Urdu: ذاکر عبدالکریم نائیک, Hindi: ज़ाकिर अब्दुल करीम नायक; born 18 October 1965) is a renowned [1] Muslim public speaker, and writer on the subject of Islam and other comparative religion. :: The citation is from: http://www.peacetv.in/sp-dr_zakir.php, an authentic source material citing his 'prolific' activities. Renowned is a better word, so I changed that.

Problem #3:

Fix #3:

Khushwant Singh, a prominent Indian journalist, politician and author argues that Naik's pronouncements are "juvenile" and said that "they seldom rise above the level of undergraduate college debates, where contestants vie with each other to score brownie points". ::As you can see it has not been removed.

Problem #4:

  • Why is polemical commentary being added? E.g. "Near the end of the debate a weary Dr. Campbell said, "Well, Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems," admitting to the presence of scientific inaccuracies in the Bible"

Fix #4:

That was more than evident so I reworded it: Near the end of his time to speak Dr. Campbell remarked, "Well, Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems," admitting to the presence of scientific inaccuracies in the Bible. [19] Campbell also proclaimed, that in his opinion, Naik had failed to convince him about several verses in the Qur'an that explicitly dealt with embryology. This debate was widely seen as an accomplishment by Muslims for Naik, furthering to help to increase his popularity. :: This isn't an act of controversy or polemics as you put it. This is reported on the transcript of the debate. You would only find this 'polemical' if you had subscribed to a certain faith.


You did say that I did nothing of the sort to fix those blatant errors, but I clearly did as I just quoted them by reference. Could you please revert it back to the old page if me reverting it will cause an uproar?

The Well Wisher (talk) 11:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected this page for a week, and before I did that I reverted to the last version by Ari, who requested the protection. I did this because I was reluctant to protect on versions created by accounts with very few edits, given that it's an article about a living person. Please use the week to reach a compromise, and please also make sure that all your edits are sourced to high-quality sources, per WP:BLP. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk contribs 10:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, SV.
For discussions I have listed just some of the major issues above. Personally, I cannot see a justification for them but please convince me. --Ari (talk) 10:13, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi Everyone

I feel that among the three available ‘revert-choices’ of the article I feel that my version is far more systematically organized and has a more authentic historical appeal. It contains more pertinent, unbiased information. It is often assumed that when writing a biography of a religious professional the writer’s bias is most often come across by readers. However, my version of the article strictly adheres to the guidelines that have been set out by Wikipedia. I feel it is therefore my obligation to restore my article in an effort to uphold Wikipedia’s integrity as a ‘scholarly resort’ for people of all beliefs and faiths. Grammar, punctuation, and stylized organization are all profound key elements in an effective Wikipedia article. I request that if other users have any suggestions or constructive criticisms about my work do address them here. I am therefore reverting the current article back to its former self. Kbonline (talk) 18:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The comments above were made by a sock-puppet, who is blocked from Wikipedia. By the way, this user acted far less civilized in other discussionsJeff5102 (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


Naik banned from entering Britain

[21]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.193.229 (talk • contribs)

Ms May

please remove MS from mays name as it violates WPs policy --123.237.195.131 (talk) 18:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Naik's Views On Islamic Terrorism

Users Spine.Cleaver and Saju wiki have been banned as both being sockpuppets of the same, and previously blocked, user Hi all, In this recently added section, don't we think we need to add parts from his speech where he criticized innocent killing as well ? Correct me if I am wrong, this somehow looks very biased to me. As we all know he is very much known for speaking against violence and terrorism, we'll have tons of references for it, I believe he mentioned it directly in his very last press release too. We could also include the quotation he normally takes from the Holy Quran. Thankx ! Saju wiki (talk) 20:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Please use those references you got. However, as far as I can read in the article, he thinks that 9/11 was an insiders job by the George W. Bush-government. How could he disapprove islamic terrorism, if he doesn't believe in islamic terrorism?
Anyway, I just wanted to say that you should be careful in editing the text. Before you know it, it will contradict itself.Jeff5102 (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out, well, the text that is written in the article regarding his comments on terrorism, should be given with correct context or else like you said, it'll easily appear as a contradiction. He was trying to give the correct literal meaning to the word "Terrorism" in that lecture, as you know now a days it's referred to just one matter. if you really observe all his complete lectures, it's impossible to find a contradiction. What I have noticed a lot is that, very easily his unequivocal statements that gives his direct opinions about some issues are plainly ignored/discarded. What do you think about that ? I am attaching some references below for this topic.
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"... even if you agree for the sake of argument that OBL did it ( 9/11 attacks ) it is not justified for killing innocent human beings ... " --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007 [22]
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"If he(OBL) is on the truth, if he is fighting the enimies of Islam, iam for him, I don't know what he is doing, iam not in touch with him, i don't know him personally, I read on newpapers. If he is terrorizing the terrorist, if he is terrorizing America the terrorist, the biggest terrorist, Iam with him. Every muslim should be a terrorist, the thing is that if he is terrorizing a terrorist, he is following islam. Whether He (OBL) is (following islam ) not I don't know ! But please don't tell outside that Zakir Naik is for OBL, I cannot base my judgments as a Daee only on News, But you as a muslim without checking (Authenticity), laying alligations is also wrong"-- PUB Auditorium, Singapore 17th Oct 1998 [23]
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"As far as OBL is concenred, I don't know, I haven't met him, I haven't interrogated him, he is neither my friend, neither my enemy, I cannot base my answer based on news from BBC and CNN" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 007[24]
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"How can you ever justify killing innocent people? But in the same breath as condemning those responsible we must also condemn those responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon" -- Expo Islamia conference in Manchester.
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“As far as terrorist is concerned, I tell the Muslims that every Muslim should be a terrorist… What is the meaning of the word terrorist? Terrorist by definition means a person who terrorizes. When a robber sees a policeman he’s terrified. So for a robber, a policeman is a terrorist. So in this context every Muslim should be a terrorist to the robber… Every Muslim should be a terrorist to each and every antisocial element. I’m aware that terrorist more commonly is used for a person who terrorises an innocent person. In that context no muslim should be a terrorist ! he should not at all terrify any innocent person. He should be a selective terrorist, terrorist only to antisocial elements" -- PUB Auditorium, Singapore 17th Oct 1998 [25]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have spoken out on numerous occasions against all and any acts of terrorism and I have unequivocally condemned such acts of violence; acts including 9/11, 7/7 and 7/11 (serial train bombings in Mumbai) which are completely and absolutely unjustifiable on any basis,” eminent Islamic scholar Dr Zakir Naik had said on June 11" -- Press Release June 11 2010.[26]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Terrorism has no place in Islamic life" -- Article by Zakir Naik [27]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have spoken out on numerous occasions against all and any acts of terrorism and I have unequivocally condemned such acts of violence; acts including 9/11, 7/7 and 7/11 (serial Train bombing in Mumbai) which are completely and absolutely unjustifiable on any basis" -- Article by Zakir Naik [28]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Terrorism is not a speciality of the muslims, it is not even encouraged in Islam ! It is prohibited in Islam !" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007 [29]
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"Majority of other religions, they say innocent human beings should not be killed, and the leader of all these religions ( in this concept) is islam". --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007 [30]
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"The word terrorism keeps on changing based on geographical location and historical facts ... Islam condemns all forms of ( bad ) terrorism ! All forms of acts that kill innocent human beings" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007
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"All forms of terrorism which involves killing innocent human being are to be condemned ! whether it's done by muslims or non-muslims" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007[31]
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"Islam prohibits the use of wrong means to achieve a right goal ! There cannot be any justification !" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007[32]
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"Irrespective, whether it's 9/11 the twin tower attack, or the 7th of july where more than 50 innocent people where killed in the london bomb blast ... or whether it be the serial bomb blast in bombay where more than 250 people where killed, or the bomb blast that took place recently, on 11th of July 2006 where more than 200 people were killed are to be condemned ! it is prohibited ! You cannot justify killing of any human being !" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007 [33]
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Usual quotation he gives from the Quran.
"In the Glorious Qur’an it says; In chapter 5, Verse 32; “That if any one killed a person (whether Muslim or no-Muslim), unless it be for murder or for spreading corruption in the land it would be as if he has killed the whole of humanity" -- Article by Zakir Naik --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007[34]
" ... and further says if you save any single human being, it is as though you have saved the whole human kind" --SRS Auditorium, Chennai September 2007[35]
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Saju wiki (talk) 07:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Agreed Saju Wiki, I want to add that the quote below was not given in 1998 but in 1996. Kindly make a note of that:
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"If he(OBL) is on the truth, if he is fighting the enimies of Islam, iam for him, I don't know what he is doing, iam not in touch with him, i don't know him personally, I read on newpapers. If he is terrorizing the terrorist, if he is terrorizing America the terrorist, the biggest terrorist, Iam with him. Every muslim should be a terrorist, the thing is that if he is terrorizing a terrorist, he is following islam. Whether He (OBL) is (following islam ) not I don't know ! But please don't tell outside that Zakir Naik is for OBL, I cannot base my judgments as a Daee only on News, But you as a muslim without checking (Authenticity), laying alligations is also wrong"-- PUB Auditorium, Singapore 17th Oct 1998 [36]
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Dhulfiqar 18:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Please note the authenticity of the source -> [37] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs) 18:27, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
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Hi all, you know what, I intially had the same confusion. what date to put, I know they were different in what BBC and even what IRF gave. but you see w.r.t the reference I gave I need to be honest right ? when this show was broadcasted the dates shown was exactly what I gave. Please check here [38]. I did not want to give a date which is different in the reference I provided, it could very well, be on 1996, I was focused more on the content of the speach. Hope I made my point clear. But the real point of discussion should be on the clearity/honesty/authenticity of information provided in wiki. Why should we project information which is exactly contrary to what the speaker was intending to say. Hope we'll all be able to focus and agree on that issue. If we all agree, I would actually request Jeff5102 to change it. Thankx ! Saju wiki (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. I suggest adding the necessary quotes into the Naik wiki. It would give the article a more neutral point of view. Dhulfiqar 04:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)
To Ari89, to say that the government solely indicted him on his speech is a false allegation if there is evidence to the contrary.

Please read wp:OR, WP:Verifiability, wp:npov and wp:synth before going on. --Ari (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm well acquainted with wp:OR, WP:Verifiability, wp:npov and wp:synth. If I may ask, what do you find unjustified about my edits? Dhulfiqar 10:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
please get some reliable sources if you want to write that Naik has some other view about terrorism. these youtube videos and some site called twocircles.net cannot be considered as credible sources. --Deshabhakta (talk) 17:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
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Hi Deshabhakta, What is more reliable information other than statements from the speaker himself ? When you say youtube is not reliable information did you also consider the fact that UK started these proceedings based on reports that relayed on YouTube and GoogleVideo ?
Check the "sources" of extracts provided by them to substantiate their views [39].
Check the article page one more time it says clearly right before the quotation "In a widely watched 2007 [YouTube] video, he says the following:"
Check the reference for the speech extract currently provided in the article itself (reference# 4,32 or [40] and [41]) describes references to youtube !
What we can do at the moment is point back to the same source (YouTube) for accurate information.
But once again our main topic is still not that, let me highlight them again 1.) Provide full context of his speech, especially the one that is provided in wiki. 2.) Other quotations from him that validate and emphasis his views. All am trying to say is why should we be reluctant to provide key facts ? Especially in a place like wiki where we are responsible to provide unbiased authentic information. Saju wiki (talk) 20:23, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
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I agreed Saju Wiki. The government did base its ban off several YouTube videos. It's outrageous how we cannot consider something as news worthy, at the least be able to cite it, when the UK government went ahead with cancellation of his visa. Please visit Zakir Naik's official Ban Exclusion website: http://www.zakirnaikban.com/. Dhulfiqar 05:54, 27 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

Once again, refer to the policies you claim to know so well. We are reporting what the Home Office gave reasons for; we can easily report that Naik contests the ban. We do say that in the article. However, we are not going to call these "false allegations" because you personally believe this to be the case. --Ari (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Please visit the references Saju Wiki and I have contributed in our posts. These are not personal opinions, but facts as reported by reliable sources. The UK's report is a primary source, whereas what you deem news worthy are secondary and tertiary reports. Naik's personal testimonies are just as reliable, considering this information is coming from him. I've invited you to view our references, but you've shown disregard by being elusive to my posts on your Talk Page and this Page. I hope we can settle this cordially. We have two contesting factions, Naik and Media News - which one takes precedence over the other? Neither. We must provide both views. Naik's article is chalk-full of negative connotations. The article is NOT neutral. Dhulfiqar 06:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

You state: "We have two contesting factions, Naik and Media News - which one takes precedence over the other? Neither." Then hold to that. Calling them "false allegations" is an editorial value judgement and attempts to undercut the fact that the Home Office has made a decision. --Ari (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, but on a few things. Lets take the last sentence of the first paragraph as an example; "Naik has been denied entry into United Kingdom and Canada since June 2010 owing to his soft approach on Islamic Terrorism." Who said "owing to his soft approach on Islamic Terrorism?" I've seen all of his videos, and he's unanimously declared terrorism to be a foreign element to Islam's teachings, please refer to Saju Wiki's references and quotes. The article is relying on four news reports which just happen to be tertiary sources: based on a report that's based off another report, which is yet based off of UK's press statements. Those statements were made off of several YouTube videos. We must include that Zakir Naik claims to have evidence against the UK's decision that have derided him of his efforts to spread Islam. Before I go ahead with the edits, I want to hear your opinions. Dhulfiqar 08:21, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The reason provided was for his comments relating to terrorism as unacceptable behaviour as far as I can tell. How do you possibly know what the basis for their decision was? You seem to assume that your role as an editor is to be an apologist for Zakir Naik. The section in the article states that he will reportedly contest the ban; that is sufficient. It is not going to be a for and against debate manufactured by individual editors. --Ari (talk) 08:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Making the unfair presumption that I'm an apologist of any sort is unacceptable, if not down right demeaning, based on my disagreement with the neutrality of the article. Please visit the Zakir Naik article and note how the neutrality of the article is disputed. The article is filled with negative connotations and reporting, but none seem to be positive. Why is this so when is he is so well known in Muslim circles to be a positive character? How I and other editors came to know the basis of Naik's exlusion ban was simply done by reading the four inline citations given in the Wiki article itself. To say one doesn't know the 'basis' of Naik's ban is, in my opinion, rather childish when one knows the extent of media coverage he's been getting lately. I'm astonished you don't know the reasons for his ban - you seem to be an avid editor, but poorly informed. For your clarification, and only yours, I will be posting reference links that provides the basis for Naik's exclusion (the first two are the same so I suggest you visit http://zakirnaikexclusion.com/index.php/press-release):
Evidence 1: http://zakirnaikexclusion.com/images/stories/Dr%20Zakir%20Naik%20Statement%2011th%20June%202010.pdf
Evidence 2: http://zakirnaikexclusion.com/images/stories/Dr%20Zakir%20Naik%20Statement%2011th%20June%202010.pdf
Evidence 3: http://zakirnaikexclusion.com/index.php/press-release/61
His comments that have been deemed as 'unacceptable' are out of context. This article requires to integrate the viewpoints of both contesting parties for fairer a picture. It seems you don't want to want to settle the diplomatically, you would rather have it, excuse the pun, 'your way'. Dhulfiqar 09:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Once again, where exactly do they say that those specific talks are the only problem? Calling me ignorant while failing to produce what I am apparently ignorant of is redundant. To repeat everything I have said: we are not going to make value judgements on the reasons simply because you believe they were "false allegations". The Home Dept gave their reason, we report the reason, not your opinion on the reasons (or your guesswork on the specific reasons.) --Ari (talk) 11:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
I just went through the View History section of Naik and see that I have violated the 24-hour constrain as defined by the 3RR. I wish to self-report my ban. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs) 10:28, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
YouTube videos are in no way reliable sources. they are hosted by unknown and anonymous people. They might have been doctored. Zakir's own website or something called zakirnaikexclusion.com owned by people whose credibility is unknown cannot be considered as RS. If you want to mention the context in which Zakir made such a speech on terrorism, please get a citation from a reliable source. --Deshabhakta (talk) 17:28, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
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Ari,
Please let us focus on the topic for which I opened this discussion, For the other issues/topics, Let us take it to your talk page, I'll also join if possible.Comming back to the issues with this article, let me try my best to be brief,can you please answer a few things for me ?
When you said "We are reporting what the Home Office gave reasons for; we can easily report that Naik contests the ban. We do say that in the article." There are two things here ...
Reasons ( Thanks Dhulfiqar, for bring that point up )
1.) You also said "The reason provided was for his comments relating to terrorism as unacceptable behaviour as far as I can tell" and that is more or less what came from the Home office, why is that not given as "the reason" in the article ? Instead something entirely different and new ! ("owing to his soft approach on Islamic Terrorism" ). Iam totaly with Dhulfiqar on that. Now since you also believe one's opinion/assumptions shouldn't be in any form part of the article, don't you think it's the opinion of the editor that has ended up being there ? Iam thinking the Home office wouldn't like that statement either. I would kindly encourage you to adopt your word uniformly and not selectivly.
2.) The Home office gave an official letter to IRF, the reason stated there is different, that letter has some context of the speech that is cited in the article, not all though, they are not anybody's opinions on reasons for the ban, but what really came from the home office. Did you really go thru those references that Dhulfiqar gave ? why is the article ignoring that ?
Imbalance
1.) The article gives information that Zakir is banned, plus the opinion about reasons of why, on the other hand it also stated Zakir is contesting, But, no reasons and facts with which Zakir is contesting, and why he is contesting (remember this article is all about Zakir !), don't you think there is an imbalance there ? Please sincerely and logically think keeping in mind that this article needs to be neutral.
Deshabhakta,
your recent post looks almost the same. I thought I replied to that. May I please ask you, if you are concerned about youtube's credibility, Why this cautious silence for the present article's youtube references ? Had the home office thought exactly the same as you did earlier,I believe this issue wouldn't have arised in the first place. Saju wiki (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
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@Deshabhakta - Naik was indicted on the charges for promoting terrorist activities based off of several YouTube videos by UK's Home Secretary. The reasons why he was banned is clearly outlined by the article, but the reason why he's contesting the ban is not given. Why the double-standards? Your arguments have so many loopholes that it's worth noting you'd make a poor editorial manager. For your information http://zakirnaikexclusion.com is hosted by Naik himself - and to prove that to you, please visit http://irf.net, Naik's homepage. I'm beginning to seriously doubt your competency. Your inability to recognize Naik's homepage is an RS is proof of your ineptness as an editor. --Dhulfiqar 07:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

Please guys, let us just wait till reliable 3rd-party sources find out about the truth concerning Naik's views. Otherwise, the talkpages become a discussion-forum with original research, and that is not what Wikipedia is meant for.Jeff5102 (talk) 08:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

@Jeff5102 - I wast just issued a friendly warning not to single out individuals, but I strongly disagree with your opinion on how 3rd-party, or tertiary reports, are 'truth'. That is absurd, would't you agree? Every political & historical scientist produce evidence on the basis of primary sources, not secondary or tertiary reports. --Dhulfiqar 10:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)
Even if political & historical scientists ONLY produce evidence on the basis of primary sources, then again, we are writing an encyclopedia over here. We are NO scientists. If you try to make this article ONLY on the basis of primary sources, you violate the WP:OR-rules.Jeff5102 (talk) 13:04, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
As I have already said, i have no issue with mentioning the other viewpoint of Zakir and also the context in which he made the listed statement on terrorism but it should be sourced from reliable sources. Zakir's own sources will violate RS and OR. YouTube videos posted by some anonymous person should in no way be acceptable. If the ban is because of a particlar YouTube video, it is not that video that is being used as source to say something on this article. It is a mentioning of that video in a reliable source (WSJ). I hope the difference is quite clear. If a reliable news source tells us the context in which Zakir made that statement about terrorism and also his alternate/other views on terrorism, they can certainly be added to this article. --Deshabhakta (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
@ Jeff5102 - Political & history personalities do not ONLY produce evidence based on primary sources, but use third-party sources to help portray what happened, or is happening accurately. The fact that this article has no primary sources is a disgrace in itself. I concur with you, we're not scientists and therefore our opinions do not matter at all when it comes to authoring a Wikipedia article. Did I say that this Wikipedia article should be solely based on primary sources? I'm going to ask you to refrain from putting words into my mouth. I checked WP:OR, and have verified it with a few other editors whether we would be violating the rule if we sourced a few primary sources in light of Naik's recent exclusion from Canada and Britain - and they unanimously agreed it would not. Furthermore, we're not making personal opinions here. I kindly ask you again to understand my platform.
@ Deshabhaka - Don't think I don't know what your screen name means. I'm happy to see you agree with our staunch beliefs in citing reliable sources, and within its rightful context. I did full research on the RS and OR regulatory rules of Wikipedia, and I must say that we are in full concordance with it. I ask you to peruse over the RS and OR rules again and point out to me exactly what rule we'll be violating if we cite Naik's sources. Thank you for addressing this issue appropriately.

--Dhulfiqar 20:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spine.Cleaver (talk • contribs)

I did not put words in your mouth. Of course, Naiks own opinion from his own website can be put in the article. That would be fair. However, we cannot say: "Naik has done nothing wrong" (with his own site as a reference). We could only say: "Naik argues that he did nothing wrong" (with his own site as a reference). Only when third party sources or court rulings say that Naik did not do anything wrong, we can put it in as a fact. Thus, we leave judgements to others. After all, this is an encyclopedia; not a courtroom.Jeff5102 (talk) 08:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC) Users Spine.Cleaver and Saju wiki have been banned as both being sockpuppets of the same, and previously blocked, user

The above statement is no longer valid ! For now I will just say that, I will be going forward in resolving this dispute by another process.Saju wiki (talk) 06:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no other process; you must have consensus for the edit. You do not, especially as it violated numerous WP policies. Discuss the edit and stop trying to edit war it in. --Ari (talk) 01:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
There are variety of other process Ari, (WP:DR) Iam working on that right now, I've posted all my concerns with your edits and reasons for my edits above, Why are you not answering them ? Instead you seem to be more focused on banning users. And trying to redicule them in the discussion board. May I also know what policies did I violate ? Instead of wasting everybody's time why don't you take your time and read what I've posted in the discussion page ? You are trying to use wiki to only project what you wish. Wiki is not the place for that.Saju wiki (talk) 21:11, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
No, there are not. Dispute resolution requires you discuss and justify the POV edits. You can keep threatening, but all you have to do is explain why a biography of a living person is going to now be Saju Wiki's defence of Zakir Naik's ban in the UK and Canada. In your non-consensus edits that you are intent on edit warring in instead of discussing, you are making the lead be dominated by Naik's defence of the charged. The lead is not a place for arguments. Then under biography you repeat a defence for Zakir Naik and then some. Then you go on to original research. So, the article is not going to be dominated by advocacy of Zakir Naik's defence against the exclusion orders. We have said everything that needs to be said - such as he is challening it, he thinks it was a political decision. We do not need to say that ten times over. Your edit warring is quite boring. --Ari (talk) 05:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Ari, I don't want to get involved in editing this article; I was only looking at it because of the recent sock issues. But just in passing I do think it's fair to add Naik's defence in brief to the lead, per BLP, if we're going to include the ban there. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 07:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, SV. I agree with you, my issue is with excessive (and repeated) advocacy. I have removed the ban from the lead and confined it to the dedicated section. It is a peripheral event unless you're after a platform to attack Naik or defend Naik. The dedicated section which is only a paragraph or so contains both the reasons for the ban as well as Naik's plan (and reasons) for contesting it. That is really all that there needs to be. --Ari (talk) 09:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
SV, Thanks for pointing that out. I have been trying to convey the same through my previous discussion attempts, As you can see there is a sudden agreement on it now. Now the same rule has to be also applied to the section "Naik's Views On Islamic Terrorism", why are his other quotations being deleted all the time ? Reason's for my edits are again mentioned above. Saju wiki (talk) 19:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Jeff5102, those reference does not say he has a soft approach to terrorism, on the basis of those references you cannot derive such a statement. Having that statement there is a clear indiciation of a POV. The reason why the exclusion order was given is mentioned right below that statement, which is fine w.r.t to the references. Now for the section about his views, why are his other quotations being removed ? Saju wiki (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
You are right. The reference DID say that he was banned in Canada, and actually I thought that THAT was the problem.Jeff5102 (talk) 07:09, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth

I just happened to see this news item. Perhaps it can be used in the article. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Bill. However, I have no idea how we could work "“He was asked not to talk, by who I cannot disclose,”" into the article. --Ari (talk) 00:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
No problem. I just thought I'd ask. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 00:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


I hate this stupid so called intellectual discussion about an evil man whose life has no meaning —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.152.113 (talk) 23:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Protection

I've added full protection for a week because of the back and forth to give people a time to reach an agreement. The best thing in cases like this is to rely on the way the issues were reported by reliable secondary sources, e.g. newspapers. Please give me a shout if it can be unprotected before the week is up. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk|contribs 04:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request - 13 July 2010

For any monitoring admin, these edits are what lead to this article being protected due to edit warring w/o consensus:

Hi,

My Request is for only 2 sections,I've mentioned this in the discussion page of the article many times, did not yet get any attention from anyone.

1.) UK Exclusion order

The very first line that is given in the article is a POV, it state Zakir Naik has a "soft approach" to terrorism, This statement is outside the reference provided, and which is really not true and which is not the reason why he was given the exclusion order, the actual reason is given right below that statement, So I would request you to remove the very first line of that section.

2.) Zakir Naiks views on terrorism

I wanted to add his other quotations also so that the article looks neutral, right now this section appears as a very harsh critic of him, he is very known to condemn any sort of violence, there are also very lengthy critical sections underneath, called "Fatwas", "Critisims" ..etc all added to give a negative imperssion about him, on which iam not commenting right now, But in this particular section his unequivocal statements criticising about violence and terrorism are all ignored. Ignoring them really does not give a true picture of him. Please look into it. Iam attaching the content i pasted earlier in this section for your convenience. If we cannot add them removing this section is also okay by me.

Dr. Zakir Naik stated that the official letter he received by the British Home Office, UK Border Agency, dated 16th June 2010 had one of his speech's extract and is as follows:

"As far as terrorist is concerned, I tell the Muslims that every Muslim should be a terrorist What is the meaning of the word terrorist? Terrorist by definition means a person who terrorises. When a robber sees a policeman he’s terrified. So for a robber, a policeman is a terrorist. So in this context every Muslim should be a terrorist to the robber Every Muslim should be a terrorist to each and every anti-social element. I’m aware that terrorist more commonly is used for a person who terrorises an innocent person. In this context, no Muslim should even terrorise a single innocent human being. The Muslims should selectively terrorise the anti-social element, and many times, two different labels are given to the same activity of the same individual. Before any person gives any label to any individual for any of his actions, we have to first analyse, for what reason is he doing that?"[1]

In a press release that followed immediately after the exclusion order Naik stated:

"I have spoken out on numerous occasions against all and any acts of terrorism and I have unequivocally condemned such acts of violence; acts including 9/11, 7/7 and 7/11(Serial Train bombing in Mumbai) which are completely and absolutly unjustifiable on any basis."[2]

Saju wiki (talk) 19:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

No, we are not going to start this edit war again through use of edit request. Sorry to break it to you, but now that the article is locked you are going to need to start discussing the edits that were opposed by multiple editors.
  1. You need third party reliable sources on Naik's views on terrorism, not editors patching up quotes. See WP:PRIMARY
  2. It is unnecessary to go into so much detail about his UK exclusion. As we have seen, you use expansions on that section as a platform for advocacy. See WP:SOAP
--Ari (talk) 02:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Ari, Please try to understand that all that I am trying to do is make this article clean and neutral, I am sorry but I cannot and will not stop until that is achieved. For that it was myself who asked for Admin's review, because you know as much as I do that the discussions that I was trying to bring up where all consistently ignored. And the users who were trying to contest against the neutrality of this article were all forced to shutup by issuing a block, including me. I am again sorry to remind you all this, but this is really not the way anyone would love to go about with. I am trying to get an admin review done on all of them as well.
I am very glad that the lead of the article is clean now, with SV's help.I still did not get any answer on how you could conclude and concur that he has a soft approach to terrorism. I agree we need not go to the details of the exclusion order, but at the same time we need to make sure that the brief message is accurate. And why are we shy in putting his other quotations to give the idea on what his ( Zakir Naik ) real views are. About primary source, I would like to know if IRF's own website or Zakir's own spokesman cannot be counted as primary, if not I can find out other sources. -- Saju wiki (talk) 21:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Saju, the Wikipedia position is that if we publish reliably sourced allegations about a living person, then it's fair that we also post a rebuttal that has been published by secondary sources. If no such rebuttal has been published, then we can use the subject's self-published material. But we must not use it to the point of offering the subject a platform to elaborate on his views. It must be a brief rebuttal and no more than that. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 21:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Completely agree with you there SV, Not to elaborate,but give at least one rebuttal on the section "Naik's views on Islamic Terrorism", just to make the article neutral and accurate. Also to verify the comment about this "soft approach", those are the concerns I was trying to indicate. Saju wiki (talk) 21:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


For the monitoring Admin, we still don't have a reason for why this statement is added to the article.
"Naik has been denied entry into United Kingdom and Canada since June 2010 owing to his alleged soft approach on Islamic Terrorism".
No reference given states this as the reason for the exclusion ! This statement is a conclusion falsely made. -- Saju wiki (talk) 21:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I deleted the parts which were sourced ONLY to Naiks Website, as they were violating the WP:SELFPUB-rule. As SV said elsewhere, we can use a site like this as a source for anything except the most basic details about itself that you can't obtain from anywhere else, and which are harmless. and it shouldn't be used to turn Wikipedia into a platform for information that no independent source has been fit to report.Jeff5102 (talk) 15:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 81.98.143.55, 14 July 2010

{{editprotected}}

(Please change this paragraph...)

He cited an article by Edward Said published in the Time Magazine, which said that 60,000 books about Islam and the Orient have been written between 1800 and 1950 alone.

(with this one)

He cited an article by Edward Said published in the Time Magazine, which said that 60,000 books against Islam and the Orient have been written between 1800 and 1950 alone. 81.98.143.55 (talk) 19:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

It is not done with justice. Just check out the Time Magazin article, and see what it reads.Jeff5102 (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Please discuss before reverting !

This is just a friendly reminder to discuss before reverting the article. I've made 2 changes.

1.) Removed a statement that has still not been validated with the reference provided.

2.) In the section about his view on terrorism, irrelevant information about other people have been added,removed them and added one more quotation from him as a rebuttal. Saju wiki (talk) 02:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


Ari, These are the statements I had to remove from the article.

"Naik has been denied entry into United Kingdom and Canada since June 2010 owing to his positive comments about Islamic Terrorism."

"Nail's views on terrorism have lead to his exclusion from the United Kingdom and Canada"

"Naik has been associated with terrorists including"

These statements are no where to be found in the references, these might be what you think about him, but they are not actual facts or what media is reporting, please try to avoid putting such personal views in the article. As far as i can read now, the reason for the exclusion order is already given in the brief section,which aligns with the references provided, we need not twist it and repeat it all over the place.

I've also corrected some spelling mistakes that came in through your edits. -- Saju wiki (talk) 06:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

(1 and 2) The sources, including Zakir Naik himself, state that it was regarding his comments about terrorism. You are the one who provided the quote so I don't quite understand why you are acting ignorant of ti.
(3) The sources state that they have had a connection with Naik; it is referenced as well. I notice you removed the entire long standing section. --
If the references says the reason, you should give that exact same reason right ? what iam seeing is a statement given as an opinion by you, by bringing in terms like "positive comments", "soft approach" (what ever that means ), The reference I provided does not say, what you wrote in the article Ari, you know that very well.
I removed their names, because it does not match the title. The brief section should be talking about his views on the topic, if you want to add those guys details you might have to start new article about "them". I see the exact same thing in the below section about apostacy, why give biography of Nizam here ? it should be in his article, if there is one.
Moreover you use the terms like "association" , "connection" those are really broad terms it can mean a lot of things, why don't we stick with accuracy here ? and report nothing but facts ? Reason for his exclusion is very well given in the brief, all iam asking you is to refrain from putting your opinions. -- Saju wiki (talk) 06:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
(1) I have not provided my opinion. It is what the third party reliable sources have stated, you can personally disagree with the sources but that is not my problem. (2) Numerous third party reliable sources have presented a connection between these individuals and Zakir Naik. It is not my or your personal judgement on the matter but what is verifiable. (3) I did not add the details of apostasy (or the above issue for that matter) so I don't really care for your attacks against me as somehow responsible for that content.
Evidently, you are going to need to do something better than attack me or implying that I wrote a TIME Magazine article or something ridiculous. --Ari (talk) 06:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I did dispute some POV content in the article, and that is all I have been doing, Please stop treating this as personal attacks, It's really unfortunate that I've to repeat the same thing again. I'll give it one more try.
My concern is with this statement:
"Naik has been denied entry into United Kingdom and Canada since June 2010 owing to his comments about Islamic Terrorism"
UK Exclusion ( Can we come up with the above given statement,with the below given references ? )
------------
Ref[16] Says "...was banned from Britain last week for unacceptable behaviour..."
Ref[17] Says "According to Home Secretary Theresa May, the televangelist has made "numerous comments" that are evidence of his "unacceptable behavior."
Ref[18] Says "Ms May said: "Numerous comments made by Dr Naik are evidence to me of his unacceptable behaviour."
Ref[19] No clear reason given
Ref[20] Says "Reason: his entry is not conducive for public good."
Canada ( Also about Canadian stand ? )
--------
Ref[16] Says "Citizenship and Immigration Canada declined to comment on the case yesterday, citing the Privacy Act."
Ref[17] No reference
Ref[18] No reference
Ref[19] No reference
Ref[20] No reference
Looking at it, we've have no choice but to conclude that it's your point of view. What exactly is the concern in removing that statement ? Keeping in mind that the statement right below it gives the accurate reason of exclusion.
-- Saju wiki (talk) 21:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This is just annoying by now. If you think the sentence is wrong, then fix it. But give up on trying to use a single sentence as a pretence to repeatedly force your POV into the article. Multiple editors have objected to them so you are going to have to discuss the actual issues. All that said, the sources you introduced made clear reference to his comments about terrorism - and you even extracted that into the article. Some integrity around here won't be going too far. --Ari (talk) 06:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


Hello. I would suggest to replace the youtube-movie with the Maledivian man with this transcript of the same discussion: [42]. Furthermore, we'd better delete the youtube-video's as source in the same paragraph. After all, youtube-videos are not preferred as a source, and I do not see any good in showing mr. Naik saying the same thing over and over again. Any objections?

Furthermore, I am busy with reviewing the edits of User:Дунгане about the history of muslims in China. Also a subject with muslims, but far less contraversial, luckily.Jeff5102 (talk) 08:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I am happy to be a follower of Sir zakirnaik.he is the perfect man and i cant express my feelings.thank you sir.Gnankumar (talk) 00:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality issues

I have been watching this page for several weeks, and have made both edits and reversions (to previous versions) with the aim of strengthening its neutality, yet I'm dismayed by how cavalier with issues of truth, objectivity and bias are both the critics AND devotees of Dr Naik. I do not have either a positive or negative opinion of the man. I just respectfully ask anyone who wants to edit this page to provide evidence for any claims made, and for anyone who wants to delete things they don't like reading to refrain and instead to provide countering information (and source-based evidence).GorgeCustersSabre (talk) 17:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


Dear Mr. Gorge CustersSabre

May be you are truly unaware of Islamic sensitivities, may be not. To let you know, there are three distinct identities of Muslims, viz, Sunnis, Shias and Salafis.

Salafism or Salafi thought or Salafi school of thought was started in Saudi Arabia some time back. Their distinct faith is (1) God has hands, eyes, face and a distinct body and sits on the sky though his shape is not known to people. God is separated from people, sitting alone on the sky and knows people only by his Knowledge. - This belief is in total contrast with Sunni Islam.

Salafis do not believe in blind following of Imams (established Jurists) of Islam. They say that everyone should read Quran and Ahadith and deduce fiqh rules independently. They respect the Imams, but they consider that blind following of Imams is shirk. They started a new school of thought in Islam which is known as Salafi - This belief is in total contrast with Sunni Islam. All Sunni people believe in all 4 Imams of Fiqh and consider it important to follow them if you want to be on the right path of Islam.

Deobandis, who also call themselves Sunnis differ with Barelvi Sunnis in the issue of visiting the graves of Shaikhs. But they also believe in following of Imams as compulsory element of Islam.

Barelvi Sunnis believe visiting of Graves as important aspect of Islam. There are some more issues, which are not needed to be explained here.

Dr. Zakir Naik preaches all basic beliefs of Salafi Islam openly, on TV which is aired free of cost to over 100 countries.

The entire teachings of Dr. Naik on TV, in gatherings and in his writings clearly establish the fact that he follows Salafi Islam. Therefore, it is important that this fact is recognized and appreciated by people who follow Salafi Islam. If you write "Dr. Naik's faith as Sunni Islam", it will be misrepresentation of facts. When he is a scholar of Salafi Islam, how come we say that he is Sunni Scholar. This will be far from the truth and not as per the established rules of Wikipedia. We appreciate Wikipedia for their presentation of facts and their insistence on supporting evidence. Indeed, we are fan of Wikipedia and are very impressed from their network and feel lucky to have a site like Wikipedia on Internet.

The whole life of Dr. Naik is spent in believing and preaching Salafi Islam. Every lecture, every CD you find will show his beliefs very clearly. In such a situation, it is important that his believes are clearly written on his page. If you do not do it, it will be injustice to Dr. Naik, injustice to Wikipedia and misrepresentation of facts for the world.

We hope, we made our point very clear to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guide99 (talk • contribs) 09:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

We will appreciate it very much if you revert back and write "Salafi Islam", in place of "Sunni Islam". It is in the interest of facts and truthfulness of information on Wikipedia.

We are neither follower of Dr. Naik nor his critics. We would like to maintain neutrality. We want factual information about him to be placed on Wikipedia and we hope you agree with us.

Thanks Mr. Gorge CustersSabre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guide99 (talk • contribs) 09:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

EDIT DISPUTE

Dr. Mr. OrangeMike

There is a genuine dispute of edit on Dr. Zakir Naik's page. I explained above that it is in the best interest of (Wikipedia, Dr. Naik, and truthfulness of information) and neutrality that the edit is not reverted. I thought I was protecting the image of Wikipedia.

However, you are senior and I was aghast to receive your note on my edit page. Could you kindly let me know that do I deserve to be answered on my above explanation by Mr. GeorgeClusterSabre or not? I would appreciate to be explained, answered properly and convinced, rather than silenced menacingly.

I would appreciate your kind advise Mr. OrangeMike. I want to be good contributor to Wikipedia and contribute positively. Please guide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guide99 (talk • contribs) 03:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Facebook Fan Page as a Reference or Link

Several editors have tried to add to the External Links of this entry a source that clearly lacks neutrality: the "official Zakir Naik fan page" on Facebook. It is not a "reliable independent and third-party publication". I have removed it twice already and I hope other editors will keep their eyes open for it. Thanks.GorgeCustersSabre (talk) 10:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Fatwa sources

GorgeCustersSabre, I'm confused as to why you reintroduced the fact tags concerning 'Abul Irfan Mian Firangi Mahali'. They are in the 5th paragraph of the DNAIndia cite. Did you miss this, or do you believe it does not support the assertion. Ashmoo (talk) 14:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Other poor sources

I moved the following text out of the fatwa section, but the only sources provided are primary sources from the organisation issuing the fatwa. Additionally the fatwa was delivered as a response to an internet forum question and there are no 3rd parties that reported the fatwa (which might indicate the notability of this organisation). I googled the SBoA and could not find much to show they are particularly notable. Ashmoo (talk) 14:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The Shariah Board of America has also issued more than 20 fatwas against Naik on their website. They believe Naik has gone astray, as he is not a scholar and issues Islamic teachings without authority or any knowledge to do so, which is dangerous to Islam; "Naik is known for discussions on comparative religions. He is not a qualified Aalim of deen. His comments on fiqh have no merit. If it is true that he condemned the fiqh of the Imams, then that in itself is a clear indication of his lack of fiqh and understanding of Shariah. We have come across a fatwa from Darul Ifta Jamia Binnoria, Pakistan regarding Zakir Naik not being a certified Aalim of Deen. He should consult with Ulama in his endeavor of propagating deen."[3][4]

  1. ^ "IRF Press Release". IRF. June 18, 2010. Retrieved June 18, 2010.
  2. ^ "IRF Press Release". IRF. June 18, 2010. Retrieved June 18, 2010.
  3. ^ Shariah Board of America – Q&A
  4. ^ Untitled Page
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