Template:Did you know nominations/Dore Hoyer

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 13:31, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Dore Hoyer

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~~... that Dore Hoyer (pictured) was "Europe's last great modern dancer"?~~

ALT1:... ~~that Dore Hoyer created expressionist dances for the anti-violence artist Käthe Kollwitz in Dresden in 1946?~~
Reviewed: QPQ = Birgit Keil
Comment: to compete for International Women's Day on March 8th or ... later that month

Created by Ipigott (talk), Victuallers (talk). Nominated by Victuallers (talk) at 14:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC).

Article
New article, begun 19-02-2014
Long enough, 1,700 characters
is neutral
cites sources,
does not seem to have vios.
The quotation is properly acknowledged. See comment below.

Hook: the original proposed hook is inappropriate because it states a personal opinion as if it was a fact. You cannot say she was "the only one with something to give" as if it was a fact. It is properly cited in the text of the article, but cannot be used as a "DYK" unless either acknowledged in the same way (which may make it too long).

However: "the only one with something to give" is such a biased opinion, by her teacher and close associate, that even in the context of the article itself, it is of dubious quality. It is the sort of thing that a person, stunned by her suicide, might say, but is almost certainly not true. For this reason the proposed alternative DYK is better. There are lots of very positive things that could be quoted about Hoyer. Another one could be included and maybe used as a DYK with proper acknowledgement.

Editorial: the article contains numerous small editorial problems like a word missing or the wrong auxiliary verb used. It needs to be read through very carefully, sentence by sentence looking for minor errors.
Reviewed Amandajm (talk) 05:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Note: Suggesting an ALT hook is not a review by any stretch of the imagination. Please supply a different QPQ. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:50, 20 February 2014 (UTC) Done, thank you for keeping count Victuallers (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Amandajm. Happy to use the alt hook. There is a convention previously use at DYK that putting things in apostrophes tells the reader that it is a quote. Knowing that it is Mary Wigman who said it adds little to the hook and the reader can work out that someone said it.)

As you say, but I don't know, this may have been after her suicide). I have cut down the first hook as per your opinion. I have copy edited it but found few missing words and minor errors may remain. Hopefully you are OK with the alt hook. If you want to suggest an alt then that would be fine. I have drafted an alt which I think is what you are thinking about Victuallers (talk) 10:45, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

(alt2) ... that Mary Wigman said that Dore Hoyer (pictured) was "Europe's last great modern dancer"?
I've gone through the article and added an infobox, another image, more text, and lots of refs. Someone else should re-review it, since I've done enough work that I don't qualify as a reviewer anymore. BTW, the phrasing of the quote mentioned, "the only one who really has something to give", pretty strongly suggests that it was made while she was alive, since she'd hardly have something to give if she was dead. If she was dead, you'd expect "had". I rather liked the complete quote (in the article) as more interesting, but I bow to the collective will :-) Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk)

Article is new enough, long enough, and meets the policy criteria for DYK. Unfortunately, the image license information on Commons is dubious -- it's not clear that the uploader was actually the copyright holder as claimed, and I cannot tell whether German law protects a copyright. (I do see that the photographer died more than 50 years ago, which might put this in the public domain.) The ALT2 hook is in the article and is supported by the cited source (but another source for what appears to be a different translation of the same quotation indicates that the quotation was in a eulogy, and it uses "had", rather than "has"). I couldn't verify the ALT1 hook -- the source indicates that some of Kollwitz's work inspired Hoyer's dance composition, but I don't see an indication that she created the dance for Kollwitz. --Orlady (talk) 04:04, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Orlady for the successful review. There is another image loaded by Mary which actually I prefer. You say that you cannot see "any evidence that Kollwitz's work inspired Hoyer's dance". The dance is called "Dances for Käthe Kollwitz", I would have thought this would pass the "any evidence" test that it might have been inspired by her. As it is maybe its just best to let this continue on its way. I have added Mary to the author list. Victuallers (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The title of the dance doesn't necessarily mean she created it "for" Kollwitz; it might simply mean "in honor of" Kollwitz.

As for the image that Mary added to the article, it is a photo of a sculpture honoring Hoyer. How would you cite it in the hook?

Beyond that, I feel the need of an expert on image licensing, particularly in regard to Germany. I recall reading about issues regarding images of artwork vs. "freedom of panorama" (or lack thereof) in the laws of some countries -- does Germany have restrictions on images of artwork? --Orlady (talk) 21:44, 15 March 2014 (UTC)