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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 02:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Giedrė Šlekytė

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 13:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC).

  • Article meets requirements and a QPQ has been done, but the hook is just a "conductor conducts opera" hook, which is just describing her job. Perhaps a hook about her past would be better? Something like:
ALT1 ... that prior to starting her career as a conductor, Giedrė Šlekytė considered becoming a dancer or journalist?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I disagree. Not everybody conducts at the Salzburg Festival, not everybody is willing to conduct for children, and very few are entrusted with new productions right after opening after the lockdown because of the pandemic. The opera - set during the French Revolution - deserves attention. - For me, that a conductor conducts is boring, but what kind of music a conductor conducts at which house is of highest interest, and what that conductor did before is of no interest. My pov. You can do your hooks your way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Not everybody conducts at the Salzburg Festival, not everybody is willing to conduct for children, and very few are entrusted with new productions right after opening after the lockdown because of the pandemic. None of these are evident in the hook Gerda. The typical reader is not going to understand these important things at first glance. You need to get their attention from the get-go with a self-apparent hook, not a hook that requires extensive up-to-date knowledge about the opera industry. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Very generally: I like to say what a subject, especially a living person - is notable for, not something which is peripheral to that, and certainly not only say something peripheral. Do we need another discussion round on project DYK? (Please say no. I have guests and am in vacation mood, so have only time for minimum service these days.) Readers are different, and so DYK should be in order to be broad, not catering to only feed and connect to what everybody knows already. If they don't know the festival or the opera, here's their chance to learn they exist, and if they don't care, fine. We have only 150 chars, and they should be substantial, imho. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
ps: I believe that the interesting name alone may prompt readers to find out if that is a man or woman, coming from where, and why the person is mentioned, - regardless what else the hook says, - so the hook can say something substantial without harm. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
In all honesty, if for example there was a hook about a ballet dancer which mentioned that she graduated with a degree in video game development, I personally would find that far more unusual and interesting than a hook about said ballet dancer performing in a production of Swan Lake in Moscow. Because a ballet dancer doing a ballet production is by itself not an eye-raising fact, but if that dancer had a background that wasn't related to ballet, that would be more unique. There isn't something inherently wrong with "performer/conductor performs/conducted work X/Y/Z" hooks, but if that's the entire meat of the hook without mentioning something that catches the attention of not just you but the average reader, then more often than not they don't really work out. Gerda, you really need to keep in mind the interests of the average Wikipedia reader and not assume that every reader who reads the main page knows anything about classical music. You need to catch their attention with something that would make them want to learn more about the person, even if that something isn't necessarily what they're best known for. If the reader wants to read all about their roles and performances, well that's what reading the article is for. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:04, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
So we do need another discussion? After vacation. I have three articles waiting (one a recent death, one a psalm in memory of Yoninah), and many reviews waiting, don't even have time to read this, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
This discussion is going nowhere so I'm asking another editor to take a look at this; given that I had proposed a new hook, I would have been unable to give final approval anyway. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:55, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that promising conductor Giedrė Šlekytė, formerly 1st Kapellmeister in Klagenfurt, made already her debuts in Dresden, Salzburg, Zürich, Leipzig and Frankfurt? Grimes2 (talk) 11:32, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I don't like these "laundry lists" of places in articles, worse in a hook. (... and if places, then links to opera houses, but better not). - Also: imagine you made a great career and someone said "promising" ;) - She is an accomplished musician, and being entrusted with the Poulenc (20th century complex music) at the Opera House of the Year in Europe says so, in other words, while the children's Mozart is meant to add a touch for a smile. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT2a: ... that young Lithuanian conductor Giedrė Šlekytė, formerly 1st Kapellmeister in Klagenfurt, has held already major guest-conducting positions in Europe? Grimes2 (talk) 12:00, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
    That's better, but why would you mention Klagenfurt which some will not know, instead of Salzburg which is likely the second-best-known festival on earth? ... + why the also not well known job description Kapellmeister instead of a well-understood "conducted"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:37, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to give a second opinion on the various hooks, and possibly a final approval of this nomination. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Honestly ALT2b sounds too vague, not to mention it doesn't even suggest that she is a woman composer, which I thought was pretty interesting by itself. If we had to use some variation of ALT2 I would have preferred the original version (except reword "made already her debuts" to something else). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:15, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Is this more concret? Nothing sensational. Grimes2 (talk) 10:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, very generally: to find something special because a woman did it is sexist (so I was told, and understand). Specifically: this woman hates it, as one of the sources says, in the headline. - Grimes2, striking because of that, + sorry, Linz is provincial compared to Frankfurt. - Moving the whole ALT2c above "do not write below". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer, but wait please, - a different reviewer might just like the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
ALT2d seems very niche and doesn't seem to appeal to non-classical music fans. As for the original hook, I just checked it and realized that it's 202 characters; as such, it's regrettably been struck due to being over the length limit. If a shortened version of it can be proposed, feel free to do so to allow it to be considered by a reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:17, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
187 characters. Grimes2 (talk) 10:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the new hook. My main concern with it is that it seems to be trying to cram in too much information into one hook, but perhaps another reviewer may disagree. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:04, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
It is a bit long. There's also no payoff or twist that would pique the interest of a reader unfamiliar with classical music. Something more immediately tantalizing might be better.—CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
If I may offer an unsolicited ALT which might be more intriguing to a reader not familiar with classical music...
  • ALT3: ... that Giedrė Šlekytė dismissed questions about being a female conductor by saying "artists should convince through their performance, regardless of whether they are male or female"? Source: "Dass sie beruflich oft auf das Frausein angesprochen werde, sei mühsam. 'Künstler sollen durch Leistung überzeugen, egal ob männlich oder weiblich', sagt Giedrė Šlekytė." ([1])—CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
    Thank you for the offer, but how about saying that for some newcomer without achievements yet, while this one was entrusted with a production of a 20th-century composition at the opera house of last year, which is outstanding! - Almost any woman could have said what she said, and I like to be as specific as possible. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Being as specific as possible in this case has led to hooks that haven't really worked out. Maybe the goal here should be to write a hook that would interest even someone unfamiliar with classical music, rather than trying to make a hook that's specific to one person. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:40, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, but this is a DYK about a specific person, not about her - as many of us women - getting angry when doing something as a woman is regarded as something special. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that it's better to write a hook that is interesting to a wide audience, rather than to write a hook that really only appeals to a niche or even just one person. And as another editor already suggested earlier in the nomination, ALT2 and its variations are pretty niche. I do agree that ALT3 is problematic. If we do need a non-controversial hook, we still have ALT1. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:41, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
  • This doesn't seem to be working out, and no agreement has been reached on a hook thus far. If no compromise hook can be proposed soon, I'd recommend the nomination be marked for closure as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
    --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:38, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
    Striking ALT1 as almost insulting a great conductor by mentioning only a typical youthful undecidedness about a carrer and no achievement. Striking a few others I can't get behind as already explained, to make life easier for a new reviewer.
    I meant the mentioning of Salzburg in the original hook not as cramming in information but as a connection to something familiar, but if you believe we should not do that:
    ALT0b: ... that Giedrė Šlekytė conducted Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites at the Oper Frankfurt in 2021?
    There are few productions at all in 2021, due to the pandemic. It's noteworthy that she got a chance, it doesn't matter what she conducted to the masses, and for those who want to know a bit more, it's an interesting piece by a composer with a featured article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
ALT0b doesn't address CurryTime7-24's concerns about the fact being interesting to those unfamiliar with classical music. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:08, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Don't you think you could leave it to CurryTime7-24 to say that? - We won't get around "... that Giedrė Šlekytė conducted" because that's what she stands for. - Listen, she fascinated me conducting. I'd like to tell the world, - that's my motivation for having written the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
ALT4 ... that when the Salzburg Festival included a performance of Mozart's Magic Flute for children in 2018, they asked Giedrė Šlekytė to be the conductor?
Final offer! ALT4 ... it just present the same facts above in I hope a more intriguing way Victuallers (talk) 22:45, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer, but it expands the part that was dropped in ALT0b, for several reasons: 2021 is more recent than 2018, a performance after lockdown is especially remarkable as there are few, Frankfurt is a more important location than Salzburg, Poulenc is more unusual than Mozart. (This is DYK presenting the unknown, not: sure you know Mozart.) Also, they certainly didn't play it in English for Austrian children, and when a piece has an article we don't link the composer. - Thank you for copyediting. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't think the reader needs to know much about classical music to realize that a special performance, for children, of a major work might be unusual. ALT0 wasn't the hookiest hook in the world but it was OK. EEng 12:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
To be clear, performances for children are not unusual, at least here in the United States. Over here in Los Angeles, both the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Los Angeles Opera have had long-running programs directed at youth. (In fact, as a child I attended a number of performances by the latter as part of class field trips.) This kind of outreach is expected from any music director of a major American classical music organization. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 16:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
I think it also depends on the type of performance. At least in my country, it was not uncommon for field trips to include watching family-friendly performances such as ballets, plays, and musicals (think Cirque du Soleil-type events), but I do not recall it being common when it comes to classical music in general. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm guessing children's shows at Salzburg are unusual. EEng 12:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Can we please return for the side-show at Salzburg, which was only added to connect to something familiar, to the key fact that she conducted a rare (any opera production is rare in 2021!) performance at the Opera House of the year, - if we really can't say both?? (Explained above, so tired of repeating.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
The issue here Gerda is nowhere in ALT0 nor its variations does it actually mention that information. There's no indication in the hook whatsoever that the performance was "rare" or took place in after the reopening of performances. If a hook about that could be proposed, maybe that could work, but right now, ALT0 and its variations don't even mention what you want to express. If you want to convey those points that are dear to you, please mention them in the hooks themselves and make sure they're sourced in the article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
... but I think ALT0 is fine (Gerda has been at that concert). Grimes2 (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Given that no agreement has been made on a hook despite multiple suggestions and comments by several editors, there doesn't seem to be a path forward for the nomination anymore. Thus, I'm marking this nomination for closure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    You have problems with the hooks, - perhaps a different reviewer will look at it differently. - No, everybody on this planet knows by now that large-scale performances are rare in pandemic days, without pointing that out in every hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    I honestly no longer understand what you are aiming for Gerda. You objected to multiple hooks proposed above by other editors due to them not emphasizing Šlekytė's "rare" performance, or that said performance was among the first after the reopening of performances. However, none of your own proposals have even alluded to this. You shouldn't assume that readers know the context of what you're talking about because at first glance the hooks don't give any context whatsoever, they just mention that she conducted a performance without giving the background. As I mentioned earlier, a hook that at least mentions this background could work, but instead you've been insisting on very specific wording that doesn't even properly explain your goal. If what you want to emphasize is her conducting in a pandemic world, then the hook should be about that specifically, not just saying that she's conducting without any allusions to the background. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 20:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    Comment: I value the opinions of both Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5, but I must respectfully agree with the latter. The only hooks which the former finds agreeable are, frankly, boring and seem to appeal only to people already very familiar with classical music. When the entire classical music industry is currently moving forward in the spirit of "the show must go on," I'm not convinced that Giedrė Šlekytė's performances of the Poulenc are intrinsically notable, even given the current situation. Consider last year's production of Messiaen's Saint François d'Assise by Theater Basel. Just looking at the stack of four volumes which comprise the opera's published full score are enough to impart the countless challenges both music and staging present under even the best circumstances. But Theater Basel not only had to perform this opera, but they also had to do so while complying with social distancing mandates. In order to accomplish this, they convinced the Messiaen estate to permit for these performances only an arrangement reducing the ensemble used in this massive work to one about 1/3 the size of the original; commissioning Oscar Strasnoy to realize this feat within only a matter of weeks. All this in fall 2020, well before vaccinations had even begun to roll out—and with glowing reviews to boot. Now that's extraordinary. Comparatively speaking, Šlekytė's conducting of Dialogues des Carmélites isn't any more notable than the forthcoming Salzburg run of Nono's Intolleranza 1960. Which is not to sell her achievement short. But, as Narutolovehinata5 has explained, there has to be more to an ALT than just "subject does their expected job." A good ALT should be enticing first and foremost, something immediately relatable to the lay reader, not a recap of the subject's greatest virtues or even necessarily flattering to the subject. Giedrė Šlekytė deserves to be better known and I sincerely hope that an adequate ALT can yet be devised to accomplish this. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    @CurryTime7-24: Would a proposal similar to ALT1 have worked? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 20:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    @Narutolovehinata5: Yes. It's a relatable and appealing curveball. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    ALT0d: ... that Giedrė Šlekytė conducted a Mozart's Die Zauberflöte for children at the 2018 Salzburg Festival, and Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites at the Oper Frankfurt in 2021?
    ALT0d (I've relabeled it since there is already an ALT0c) is basically the same hook as ALT0a, which was already deemed problematic by another editor. It doesn't seem like this "Šlekytė conducted Die Zauberflöte and Dialogues" angle is working out so I would suggest trying a different hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 19:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Taking another shot at a hook:
    ALT5 ... that Giedrė Šlekytė conducted Dialogues des Carmélites at the Oper Frankfurt in 2021, in one of its first performances during the COVID-19 pandemic?
    This would be dependent on the "among the first pandemic performances" fact being added to the article and sourced, since right now the article makes no mention of the Oper's reopening whatsoever, but hopefully this suggestion is closer to what you were seeking to promote. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 20:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    Kindly explain what the addition would add to her achievements. The year alone tells that story. I don't think we should add such detail about a universal and universally known situation to thousands of biographies. - Sorry, I have the last of three nominations to finish today, a backlog after days of practical absence. Please give me until tomorrow with any wishes for article changes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Let me try another two ALTs:
    ALT6: ... that conductor Giedrė Šlekytė's planned debut with Oper Frankfurt was delayed by eight months due to the COVID-19 pandemic?" Source: ([3])
    ALT7: ... that when Giedrė Šlekytė conducted Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites at Oper Frankfurt in 2021, it was the local premiere of this opera? Source: ([4]) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
    I'm not too keen on ALT7 (it seems to focus more on the work than Šlekytė herself, and it still seems reliant on knowledge of the work or Oper). ALT6 is decent. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    ALT7 is decent, but is it better than ALT0d? - ALT6 is focused on the pandemic above all, - nothing new, nothing about her doing the unusual. Also, "planned debut" sounds as if it was still planned. I planned to expand Peter Fleischmann when his death was recent, and plan to do that today, now, finally, keeping a promise to myself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    Thank you for the offer, - I added the fact to the article. I also added (from the same interview) that the women's choir had to be positioned on the 3rd tier, and that she was a fan of the stage director's work before they worked together. I could add - but it seems more and more undue weight - that she said that the opera, as the title indicates, is focused on dialogue but that they all talk past each other. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • After careful consideration, I'm putting aside my personal stylistic preferences, withdrawing my previous objections, and approving ALT0b or ALT0d for DYK. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
yeesh. To T:DYK/P5
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