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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Helicia

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Helicia glabriflora - foliage

  • ... that there are around 100 species of Helicia (H. glabriflora pictured) found from Sri Lanka and China to Australia?

5x expanded by Macropneuma (talk), Casliber (talk). Nominated by Casliber (talk) at 09:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC).

Great job on the article. Out of curiosity, did you mean to say India instead of Sri Lanka? I'm not seeing the words "Sri Lanka" anywhere in the article, but many references to the Indian subcontinent. If you put an inline cite in for Sri Lanka or replace Sri Lanka with India it gets my stamp of approval. Picture looks good to me. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Yay! Thanks. I'm grateful, particularly for the good pick up and detective work. I’ll get onto that point now. Sources exist also for the few Sri Lanka occurrences of one endemic (or more?) Helicia species, but so far i missed giving those sentences and the Sri Lankan & Indian listed species their explicit citations. Although old, in 1956, the easiest source to appreciate and to freely access on the internet is the Helicia biogeography map and its explanatory caption here (note Ceylon→Sri Lanka), in Flora Malesiana. I'm in the process of obtaining additional higher quality reference sources for the Indian subcontinent, and parts of SE Asia. Later, there’s much more to add to this article from present and additional sources. Especially, additional missing currently accepted species names (not synonyms), which i have yet to confirm their accepted status and get all their good old ref. sources. —--macropneuma 01:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Done! By the way can we alter the hook line to include New Guinea please? (–as the centre of diversity in the World. With or without its wikilink.) —--macropneuma 04:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Sure. Propose an alternate hook below (with wikilinks I think) and I'll give it a look. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 05:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
While i'm proposing i thought of some more improvements in this alternative above, in my terms. Options i think of instead of "around": (nothing simply: 100), "ca." preferred but is that commonly known, "about", "approx." or "approximately". —--macropneuma 06:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC) —Correcting *our* typos and a little more clarifying.—--macropneuma 10:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
16px for Alt 1. (Strikethrough added by TheOriginalSoni (talk) following concerns raised by IP) I slipped approximately into Alt 2, though I'd also approve "about" if you prefer. Inline citing looks good. Not certain about wikilinking countries, but the final guy will know. Good work. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 15:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, reads and sounds good to me. By the way New Guinea … a minor side point for interest, countries or islands or island subcontinents—<my happy smile>—it’s all the same to me in this context! The only question will be is it acceptable to have an additional wikilink in the hook, of that main geographic region, subtly implying that that’s the centre of diversity, which readers will find later? For your edification though, New Guinea means the whole island subcontinent, including Papua New Guinea and West Papua (region) (Indonesia – (occupying) nationality at the moment – controversially).
New Guinea works well as the name—of that unique region; works well as rising above the in fact atrocious politics of occupation and the mass open cut mining corporations, controversies; works well as the mainstream biogeographic science way. See at the dab: Papua, WP has wording troubles cause of this politics and Indonesian WP editors vs. different ed’s.
Then there’s the useful word Papuasia—used in scholarly botany and zoology studies—but i haven't found any supporting WP articles or use of Papuasia in WP. Papuasia, as you probably know, refers to the wider region, including northern Australia and SW Pacific, centred on the New Guinea island (versus the partly overlapping Malesia region, centred west of New Guinea). 'Nice if we could use Papuasia instead of New Guinea. Phew! I know your great works on birds, so i’m relating with biogeography extra words and clarification! (2:25am) 'night! —--macropneuma 16:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is very difficult to read; it is primarily a description of the literature in which various species were formally described. This could be accomplished with significantly less text, to make for a readable article. In addition, I can see the point of two citations for a formal name (the original citation and the citation referencing that as the original), but are there reasons for three? And, Macropneuma, no, I won't read 57 dense paragraphs in response. (Previously removed as PA by macropneuma, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk)) -68.107.137.178 (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Wrongheaded. Studiously ignore! Falsely exaggerated negativity; Has ignored meanings of all words above and elsewhere; WP:WIKIHOUNDING; Has looked for trouble with many admins and editors—which is easy to find—otherwise diffs provided on admin request (Previously removed as PA by IP, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk)) Of course, this recent 'start' article has much more expansion yet to come, from the sources; reference sources get added first then later the prose gets expanded, from those sources; about 100 species with only about 100 refs is a well done small number. —--macropneuma 12:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
    • This article has a lot of problems and should not go on the front page while suffering serious problems and ownership issues. DYK is not closed, and DYKs require community consensus. Ownership issues prevent community consensus.(Previously removed as PA by macropneuma, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk))-166.137.210.34 (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


  • Note to the admin/editor managing queues - Do not add it to the queue until the specific concerns of the IP are solved. macropneuma, you should NEVER remove anybody's comments stating its Personal Attack when it is not. The IP was correct in his removal of your PA, but to be fair,I have restored both removed portions. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Also note for anyone concerned - This issue was brought to my notice following a question filed at the Teahouse. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Which are what? Yes, a good chunk of the article is a list of the species in the genus, but that is standard for a genus article and does not count for the expansion. I believe the diversity and distribution and the cultivation sections alone count for the expansion of the article, and they are quite readable. Part of the job of a genus article is to outline the taxonomic history of said genus; it is all contained within one section that can be skipped if it is not of interest, and I thought it was at least decently well written. Per the claims of ownership, I don't see a single edit in its history since February that wasn't made by a bot or one of the nominators; how can ownership be claimed if no one has tried to edit it? macropneuma should not have removed the comment, but what precisely is preventing it from being promoted? That it is overcited? Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
The ownership issue is refusing to allow participation in this DYK nomination. The section on the naming is problematic, and I have raised the issue on the talk page. It is not comprehensible due to its convoluted nature,and this article is about the genus, not about the naming of the genus, this could be written in a straight forward manner. I do not know if shortening it will cause the length to be too short for DYK, but there is no need to include the direct Latin in old script for an article on a genus. I do not think anyone raised an issue about the species list, that could be in a separate list article or not. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
By my count, the article meets the DYK requirements solely with the Diversity and distribution and the Cultivation sections. I have to disagree with you; the taxonomic history of a genus (or family, or species) is important to understanding its place in the natural world and its evolution over time, and most good animal, plant, and fungus articles have a similar section that varies in length per the information available. The generic name's etymology is also interesting as it gives insight into what the namer of the genus thought made it distinct (or is used simply to honor a friend, or benefactor, or auctioned off online (GoldenPalace.com monkey).
Please see my comments on the article talk page. Nowhere have I requested that the article not have taxonomy or etymology information. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Which of the DYK requirements do you feel that the article does not meet (at the top of this page as you try to edit it)? Any issues with the content of the page in terms of complexity of language are more for the article itself, not for a DYK as I understand it. My suggestion would be to draft a revision of the Taxonomy and either be bold and post it (if it does not cut out information) or propose it on the article's talk page for commentary (if it does cut out information). Regardless, I do not think this impacts the DYK itself but is rather an issue for the article and its talk page; if you disagree, please note what of the above criteria you do not believe this page meets. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:57, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
If that section remains unreadable, I will template it, and, then some editors will not want an article on the main page with a template that says it is gibberish. I have been told I should raise the issue at DYK before it is promoted. I am doing so. Please, read the section about naming and put it in English. Trying to do so will show you that is is mostly unreadable and contains information that is not needed which blocks the readability for no gain in knowledge. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 03:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
I just rewrote it; do you find this readable? It seems like a detailed history of the genus and major additions and revisions of the genus, and I still don't think it was poorly written. I think it still met the DYK qualifications before the rewrite, and I can confirm that the section is not "gibberish". Therefore:
Alt 1 I believe that the article meets the DYK requirements; it is well sourced and referenced (possibly overly so), it is 5x expanded, the hook is interesting enough, and the sections are relevant and understandable. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Rufous-crowned Sparrow, you can't review an article after you have rewritten it yourself. An independent reviewer is needed to check if the IP's concerns are valid (and if so, resolved). Chamal T•C 03:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
We aren't allowed to copyedit articles that we review? I have no emotional attachment to the article, nor do I get any credit for its passing or failure, but OK. Future Reviewer, please see the talk page of the Helicia article for the anon's general satisfaction with it becoming a DYK. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Also, someone will want to check Wildlife of Chechnya as I copyedited that article as well, plus proposed a better-phrased hook that they adopted without change. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Your copy edit made some significant changes to the article, considering its size. So, rather than the COI (which is also a partial reason), it's best if somebody uninvolved can review the article for any issues that you yourself could have missed. It has also become common practice to leave the review to somebody else for any alt hooks you have suggested yourself. I personally don't have a problem with minor copyedits and rewording of the hook etc, but others may see it differently. Chamal T•C 06:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

My concerns are being addressed--a DYK does not have to be perfect, but it should not be gibberish, imo. I think this section will become okay. I am a little concerned about the primary editor's synthesis of sources, and I think this should be checked, but I am not primarily a botanist. -198.228.216.143 (talk) 03:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

  • I would like to see the listing of species in a collapsed format. That will be a much more readable. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 04:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

→ It was here that the starting on me occurred (diff), of that a pattern of, bare and coded (dog-whistling), one-up-manship motivated, hate speeches and hyper-criticism. I’m a field botanist, for more than 20 years. i work in governments and elsewhere. A crucial quotation of the author’s Latin does not equal gibberish. That is an example of one of the most important clarifications in the article due to confusion in lower quality sources over the meaning. It is in the eyes of the beholder, only! Check the evidence. The motivation does not come from care about botany, plants nor the Helicia article. It is obvious also, that the pressure and haste to do things to the article is not motivated by any more than this. In reality, there’s no rush. I created 99% of the article only 6 days ago. ——--macropneuma 04:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

For the record, Macropneuma, the parts you're removing as personal attacks are in fact not personal attacks. The IP is commenting on the article's content, not about you. Please don't take something like that so personally. Chamal T•C 05:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Not true! Obviously, that post and certain other posts were intended to be, re: WP:NPA. The facts are even more obvious because that start attack post was deliberately done in such a way as to obscure the target from every editor except the target themselves (quotation: "A reader … "). That post occurred shortly after there was interaction between the personal attacker and the target on a different talk page, with the attacker using different IP addresses as shown by their maintaining the continuity of their talk. It's okay in WP to use an IP address, but not to elude consideration of the whole of their behaviour and activities. I’ve read a history of them with admins, editors and so on. Have you read that? It seems that anon’ couldn't help themselves to staying away from trying to kill my joy, of this tiny little DYK. ——--macropneuma 05:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Could you provide diffs to your statement? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 06:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Although possibly you could do this at WP:ANI or one of your talk pages, and, to prevent this from seeming as if I am trying to hide the conversation, simply link back to here for anyone else who wants to participate. Thanks. -68.107.137.178 (talk) 06:22, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Length, date (well over 5x expansion on 21 April), and hook all good. Image is properly licenced. QPQ from nominater checked. Good to go. SpinningSpark 23:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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