Template:Did you know nominations/John Winter (royalist)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Allen3 ^talk 10:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Insufficient progress toward resolving outstanding issues

John Winter (royalist)

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~~... that nimble Sir John Winter escaped the Roundheads by riding down a 200-foot (61 m) cliff (pictured) now known as Wintour's Leap?~~
ALT1 ... that nimble Sir John Wintour escaped the Roundheads at the precipitous cliff now known as Wintour's Leap (pictured)?

Reviewed: Block Party!

Created by Leutha (talk), Andrew Davidson (talk). Nominated by Andrew Davidson (talk) at 22:44, 8 September 2013 (UTC).

Article is new enough and long enough. No obvious policy violations, although copyvio test did not work.
Hook is short enough and interesting enough. However, should probably add something like "according to legend".
Other - has reviewed another article. Image is appropriately licenced, although not sure it will look like anything much at 100x100.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by FormerIP (talk • contribs) 22:29, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I have provided hook ALT1 which may read more easily and addresses the points made above. That's all that needs checking, it seems. Andrew Davidson (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

ALT1 doesn't address the points at all, unfortunately. The legend involves the cliffs; the article says the historical escape involves the river and doesn't involve the cliff directly, top or bottom. The word "nimble" also doesn't work in context, since it's about something else entirely, and isn't accurate here (it seems to be related to minor business dealings, not physical dexterity). My suggestion:

ALT2: ... that according to local legend, Sir John Winter escaped the Roundheads by riding down a 200-foot (61 m) cliff now known as Wintour's Leap (pictured)?

The quote from Corbett (the one "nimble" came from) needs a cite; all quotes should be cited. I've struck the original hooks due to their problems; if you don't like my proposed ALT2, by all means suggest an ALT of your own. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The word nimble seems fine in this context as it means "cleverly contrived, cunningly executed." (OED). For example, Dr Johnson wrote of "a thousand low stratagems, nimble shifts, and sly concealments". The quotation in which the word appears is attributed in the same sentence, giving details of the author and source: An Historical Relation of the Military Government of Gloucester. I am unstriking ALT1 as I still prefer it to ALT2. We need another reviewer now. Andrew Davidson (talk) 11:01, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Andrew, there is no ref at the end of the fourth biography paragraph, and there must be one. It shouldn't be hard to do; you added the quote, so you must know where you got it from. (If you didn't get it directly from Corbet's book, then cite the source you got it from, since it isn't safe to assume that the version of the quote they gave wasn't modified as to spelling or punctuation or the like.) My point about "nimble" was that the quote did indeed convey the clever/cunning meaning, but it's being used where the context—escape at a "precipitous cliff"—would be physical agility, and that's not what Corbet meant. You may like ALT1, but as the reviewer here, I find it unacceptable as I don't believe it is adequately supported by the article or the sources as to his factual location at the time of escape (it doesn't establish that he was actually at the cliff), so I have struck it again. The other reviewer, FormerIP, said you need the equivalent of "according to legend" if this is going to fly, and I agree, which is why I used it in ALT2. (Indeed, the Wintour's Leap article asserts that the escape did not occur at the cliff, using the sole citation in the entire article for support; it's an offline cite, which is less helpful.) As you don't seem to be fond of ALT2, you'll need to propose an ALT3 that's supported by the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:55, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

It has been well over a week since the above and subsequent ping on the nominator's talk page, and no action has been taken to address the issues raised despite significant editing action elsewhere. Quote is still not given inline source citations. Nomination will be closed shortly. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

October was quite busy for me - 4 editathons which generated quite a few DYKs. This article came out of a Wikimeet and wasn't so time-critical so it has been on the back-burner. To address the issue of the quotation for "nimble", I was planning to visit the BL as I like to consult the original where possible and they should have a copy. There are secondary sources online though so I might cite one of those for now. The one I was browsing this morning had a lot more about the subject and his "desperate descent". Before I forget it's H.G. Nicholls (1863), "The family of Winter", The Personalities of the Forest of Dean, John Murray, pp. 75 et seq., ISBN 978-0-9534437-2-7. Andrew Davidson (talk) 17:33, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you've found new sources, and happy to read about the successful editathons, but less excited by the fact that the article hasn't been edited since September 13. Please consider this article to have achieved time-critical status at DYK: one week from today, November 8, will be its two-month anniversary as a nominee. If there hasn't been significant progress by then, it will be closed. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Article not edited in two months. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)