Template:Did you know nominations/Klassische Philharmonie Bonn
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 08:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
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Klassische Philharmonie Bonn
Klassische Philharmonie Bonn in 2011
... that the Klassische Philharmonie Bonn (pictured), a symphony orchestra founded and conducted by Heribert Beissel, played a concert series at twelve major halls in Germany?Source: several
- Reviewed: Tatjana Gamerith
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk) and Grimes2 (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 15:51, 21 June 2021 (UTC).
While the article meets requirements and a QPQ has been performed (only issue is that "Singapur" should be "Singapore"), the hook is frankly not very interesting. A German orchestra performing in Germany almost feels like a given and doesn't really say anything "hooky" about the subject. Given the group's history, surely there's information out there about it that can be interesting even to non-opera fans? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- I am sorry that the hook is obviously not clear enough. Two my knowledge, this is the only orchestra - but I'm not sure enough to say so - to run a concert series at twelve halls. I don't know any playing a series even at two. Can you help wording, - stress on "series", they play the same programs in all these cities. I don't understand though what's unclear. How can we add "different cities" without being clumsy and redundant (because even big cities have usually only one (sometimes two) "major concert hall". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that the Klassische Philharmonie Bonn (pictured), a symphony orchestra founded and conducted by Heribert Beissel, has a tradition of playing a concert series at more than ten major halls of Germany?
- How is that? The twelfth was added recently, so we'd need to drop the elegance of a short number. We can only hope that the tradition will continue now that Beissel died. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- You have to ask yourself this question: would someone who isn't into classical music find the original hook interesting? ALT1 is better (I'm not really sure if the mention of Beissel is essential to the hook but that's just me) and I'm more willing to approve it, although admittedly it's still a relatively niche hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have to note that the spelling of Singapore still hasn't been fixed in the article. I've somewhat warmed up to approving ALT1 as there appears to be no other suitable hook material at this time; however the article needs to be consistent: the lede still mentions the 12 number, however the list in the Wiener Klassik section only mentions 11. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:07, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- I changed it to "ten and more", twelve seems to be the current number, but ten and eleven look like having the tradition. I also fixed the spelling that missed translation. In such cases, I simply do it myself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:59, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
ALT2 ... that the precursor ensemble of the Klassische Philharmonie Bonn (pictured) was founded in 1959 to perform music originally played at the Bonn court of the Electorate of Cologne? Grimes2 (talk) 18:33, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest I was originally confused by ALT2's hook facts in the article, as I thought the predecessor group was founded to play music for the Electorate (as opposed to playing music that was originally performed during the electorate). In any case, the article wording could probably be rephrased to avoid confusion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Done Grimes2 (talk) 04:06, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'd like to hear Gerda's thoughts on ALT2 first before proceeding. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:59, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- My thoughts: while ALT2 is fine, I believe that ALT1 is a much more specific thing to say about the orchestra. There are several such focused groups named for what they focus one, but the present orchestra - which should stay bolded imho - left that focus. Actually, there may be an article about the predecessor group some day. IF we pursue ALT2, the name of that predecessor group should also be part of the hook to explain it. The electorate hangs in the air without the connection. - I tried to say nothing, but was asked. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Adding the name of the predecessor group is going to make the hook too long: just adding the name alone would make ALT2 over 190 characters. Readers could always read the article itself if they want to learn more. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:43, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- My thoughts: while ALT2 is fine, I believe that ALT1 is a much more specific thing to say about the orchestra. There are several such focused groups named for what they focus one, but the present orchestra - which should stay bolded imho - left that focus. Actually, there may be an article about the predecessor group some day. IF we pursue ALT2, the name of that predecessor group should also be part of the hook to explain it. The electorate hangs in the air without the connection. - I tried to say nothing, but was asked. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'd like to hear Gerda's thoughts on ALT2 first before proceeding. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:59, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest I was originally confused by ALT2's hook facts in the article, as I thought the predecessor group was founded to play music for the Electorate (as opposed to playing music that was originally performed during the electorate). In any case, the article wording could probably be rephrased to avoid confusion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt and Grimes2: Would this work as a hook?
ALT3 ... that the Chur Cölnisches Orchester, the predecessor to the Klassische Philharmonie Bonn, was founded to perform music originally played at the Bonn court of the Electorate of Cologne?At 182 characters it should still meet the length requirements. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)- ALT3 is fine. Grimes2 (talk) 13:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but ... - Our holy broad readership will be more interested and in a multiple-location concert series than some historic electorate, + this time my interests agree with them, because I think we should speak about the end result, not the predecessor, in honour of the founder. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3 introduces two three-word terms in German before even saying (and never saying clearly) that it's an orchestra. It would't work an image, but the predecessor is not pictured. Try to reword ALT1:
ALT1a: ... that the Klassische Philharmonie Bonn (pictured), a symphony orchestra founded and conducted by Heribert Beissel, has played the same concert series at around ten major halls of Germany?Narutolovehinata5? ... or someone else? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3 is fine. Grimes2 (talk) 13:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- Not really a fan of ALT1 or ALT1a, it seems very niche.
I'll just be approving ALT3 as the best option here (the only change being that it mentions the precursor ensemble by name, so it's not a new fact). If that doesn't work out, ALT2 is also approved as a backup. Not approving either ALT1 or ALT1a as I feel the historical connection may raise more interest compared to the less-obvious fact of performing at so many concert halls. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:13, 25 August 2021 (UTC) - As for the wording concern of ALT3, it already mentions the word "Orchester", which probably clearly means "orchestra" even to someone who doesn't understand German. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- You make me write another article to remember the conductor then, as if I had too little work. Probably Chur Cölnischer Chor, - and then readers will say "Didn't we have that already?" - I know no other orchestra with this series at many places concept, - a stand-alone thing. Klassische Philharmonie is a name with a program: classical period music, - and to say instead something about the different program of the precursor seems not the right thing to do, but ignore me. - I couldn't expand the conductor 5*, nor make him a GA, so writing this article seemed a solution to serve his memory. Which failed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Not really a fan of ALT1 or ALT1a, it seems very niche.
Comment: Per discussion on my talk page, the nominator has
requested another opinion on ALT1. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 06:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
Gerda asked me to have a look at this as a second opinion, per User:Theleekycauldron's reopening above and on reviewing the nomination, I'm happy to sign off ALT1. I can see where Narutolovehinata5 is coming from with regard to whether non-classical music fans would see this as interesting, and I respect their opinion on this one. But it's worth noting that they did previously say ALT1 was "better" than ALT0 and that they were "more willing to approve it", which is at least a positive improvement. To be honest, I think the whole "interesting to a broad audience" criterion is so vague and patchily applied, that we should allow lots of leeway on this one. Certainly the fact that the orchestra had the tradition of playing 10 concert halls will be interesting to some people. And can we honestly say that hooks such as the currently-posted "... that the WHO model list of essential in vitro diagnostics provides guidance to medical personnel on which tests to perform?" satisfy this criterion any better? We either need to nail down this issue more clearly at WT:DYK and enforce it much more rigorously, or else give nominators the benefit of the doubt. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 11:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- I still very much prefer ALT2 (I only said I thought ALT1 was an option if there were no other proposals, as that comment was made before ALT2 had been proposed), but given that this nomination had been ongoing for so long then if this is the only way it can move forward without stalling then I will no longer oppose ALT1. As for your comment on the WHO hook, I agree that said hook was too technical and perhaps the originally-proposed wording (IIRC it was something like "on what and what not to do") would have been more effective. I do agree that we probably need some more discussion on exactly what hooks qualify as "interesting to a broad audience" or not, it's just that classical music hooks for whatever reason tend to be some of the most technical or obscurely-written hooks we get and admittedly given article content and sourcing, being able to write broadly-interesting hooks about the topic can be very tricky despite our best efforts. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: fair enough, and thanks for your understanding. I raised the WHO model list primarily because it seems a statement of the obvious. "The list of essential tests is the list of essential tests" type of thing. But anyway, this discussion isn't about that hook! — Amakuru (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Amakuru: the WHO hook was my bad—I thought "which tests to do" was both wordy and informal, but at least it was a little hookier. I'll promote this one in a couple of hours. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 21:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: fair enough, and thanks for your understanding. I raised the WHO model list primarily because it seems a statement of the obvious. "The list of essential tests is the list of essential tests" type of thing. But anyway, this discussion isn't about that hook! — Amakuru (talk) 14:54, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- I still very much prefer ALT2 (I only said I thought ALT1 was an option if there were no other proposals, as that comment was made before ALT2 had been proposed), but given that this nomination had been ongoing for so long then if this is the only way it can move forward without stalling then I will no longer oppose ALT1. As for your comment on the WHO hook, I agree that said hook was too technical and perhaps the originally-proposed wording (IIRC it was something like "on what and what not to do") would have been more effective. I do agree that we probably need some more discussion on exactly what hooks qualify as "interesting to a broad audience" or not, it's just that classical music hooks for whatever reason tend to be some of the most technical or obscurely-written hooks we get and admittedly given article content and sourcing, being able to write broadly-interesting hooks about the topic can be very tricky despite our best efforts. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)